Keto and Clen
- 07-06-2009, 04:27 PM
- 07-06-2009, 10:12 PM
I am personally not a fan completely low-carb diets as the usually make me feel like sh*t. I've found CKD to be a happy medium and is amazing for keeping muscle while cutting. Again, everybody is different, so I can't say for sure how it will work for you.
If you decide to do the clen/keto diet thing be prepared to be lethargic as hell. A keto diet wll deplete your muscle glycogen stores (stored sugar in muscles) and add in clen which does the same...be prepared for your gym preformance to suffer and your muscles to looking "flat" (i.e. smaller).
Here's what I think would be good options:
1. If you've never done keto before:
*you could just start slowly lowering your carbs over those 3-4 weeks keeping an eye on your muscle loss
*or just lower your calories fat and carbs
2. Try CKD, with a carb-up every one to two weeks. Keep your carb-ups clean, making sure you doing bloat out. Once your muscles are refilled with glycogen, it could give you a good idea on how much muscle you are losing.
Either way, track your progress with pics; I find them to be a better judge than the mirror.
07-06-2009, 10:47 PM
07-06-2009, 11:10 PM
Sounds solid man.
You could also try concentrating your carbs around your workout. Like 30-50g of complex carbs 30 min before and 30-50g simple carbs during and/or after. It will give you an extra boost in the gym that can help keep your training intensity high.
07-07-2009, 12:20 AM
07-07-2009, 12:56 AM
Sounds like you are doing things right, dude.
For the love handles (a problem of mine as well), you might want to try Eviscerate by RPN or Napalm by Avant Research. I used Napalm before and it works quite well. Haven't tried Eviscerate yet, but my order is on the way. I've heard good reviews and it has Napalm in it. Add liquid or powdered clen to either for an extra punch.
Have a few ideas. Using one or two of them might help you bust through this plateau:
*drop 100-200 cals
*add a "supplement," like clen or my personal favorite, albuterol
*decrease rest periods between sets
*add more cardio
Then there is this:
And this:Getting Rid of Stubborn Bodyfat- by Lyle McDonald
Without going into the brutally long and complicated mental computations that led me to this (and I'm still working on the overall scheme), here's my current thoughts on how to approach it.
First and foremost, this is one of the places where morning/pre-breakfast cardio is probably crucially important.
An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (NO ephedrine).
There are two segments to the cardio:
- The first segment is for mobilization, to get those stubborn fatty acids out of the fat cell.
- The second segment is the oxidation part, to burn them off in the muscle.
For the first segment of the cardio, use a machine that you don't normally use. So if you normally do the treadmill, do the first segment on the stairmaster or bike or something. Just make it different.
warmup: 3-5 minutes
go hard: 5-10 minutes. I mean hard, as hard as you can stand for the entire time. This will NOT be fun on lowered blood glucose. I've considered putting intervals here but haven't found the data I need to make up my mind. If you do intervals, go something like 5X1' all out with a 1' break (10' total intervals)
Rest 5', just sit on your butt, drink water, try not to puke.
Go to your normal cardio machine. Do at least 30 minutes at moderate/high moderate intensity (below lactate threshold but decent intensity). I'd say 45' maximum here but I'm still making up my mind and looking at data.
Go home, and wait and hour before having a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat. 2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating. Your daily calories shouldn't be any different than they were already, they are just distributed differently, you only have 100-200 immediately after cardio, and then the rest afterwards.
I'd do that maybe 3 days per week to start, and see what happens.
Why this works
To get stubborn fat mobilized, you have to overcome a fairly severe resistance in terms of both blood flow and lipolysis, this requires very high concentrations of catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline). Sadly, jacking up levels of catecholamines (necessary for mobilization) limits burning in the muscle which is why you follow the high intensity with low intensity.
Basically, you jack up levels to get the fat mobilized, and then let them fall so that the fatty acid can be burned in the muscle.
I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it. Studies also show a lower than normal catecholamine response as people adapt to a given type of cardio; doing a different machine will result in a higher catecholamine response than you'd other wise get.
The bigger problem with stubborn fat has to do with:
- Blood flow to the fat cells: which is typically very low, odds are your butt is cold to the touch compared to other areas of your body
- It's harder to mobilize: both because of impaired blood flow, and because of adrenoceptor issues.
Oral yohimbe (0.2 mg/kg) can be effective when used over the long term. Don't take it within 3-4 hours of taking ephedrine, and start with a half-dose to assess tolerance (some people get really freaky responses from it). IF you can find pharmaceutical yohimbine, it's far far better than the herbal version (and most of the herbal versions are crap, the only one I trust is Twinlab Yohimbe Fuel). Personally, I'd opt for alpha-yohimbine instead.
I've used it in the past a few times with great results. Started it again about a week ago. Puked after the first three workouts but I'm already starting to lean out. I hate this routine with a passion...but it works.
Good luck bro.
07-07-2009, 01:28 AM
07-07-2009, 02:58 AM
Great info bro, you seem to be a duty expert when it comes to diets and cutting. Just started my clen today and love it!! my first time ever taking it
07-07-2009, 08:30 AM
07-07-2009, 12:07 PM
07-07-2009, 07:21 PM
Adding cardio to the program will depend on your current conditioning level. If you already do a lot of it, then you can add a decent amount right off the bat. If not, then start with one or two sessions per week and add more each week as you progress thru the program.
Atm, I do the workouts first thing in the morning in a fasted state. I drink a bcaa shake 30 min before and sometimes after depending on how I feel. Works great imo.
You might also want to add an adaptogen like rhodiola, ashwaganha, relora, etc. They will help your body deal with the added stress that you are putting on it.
As for the topical sh*t, you won't gain fat back after stopping if you can maintain your low levels of bodyfat. Not sure what would happen if you started gaining the weight back. You could ask the folks over at the RPN or Avant Research sections to get a more solid answer.
07-07-2009, 11:57 PM
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