penatrate test base?

[maddyfresh1]

I ve been reading about transdermals. Is it possible to use penerate instead of phlo to make a trans. If i add some ba to dissolve the powder completely and a hot water bath or just stick with the gel? I ask because i have penerate.

[crowbar46]

I asked this same question in the Primordial Performance thread and was told yes, it will work just fine, that the respondant had a friend that was doing just that with TNE and Tren and loving it. Just make sure not to oversaturate and follow the directions on the Nutra/PP page.


Crowbar

[maddyfresh1]

to be a little more clear...will penetrate work with a bold or a test base?

[dsade]

Why the thumbs down?

[maddyfresh1]

thought that was a question mark ahahahaa. my screen sucks

[Jimbo15]

to be a little more clear...will penetrate work with a bold or a test base?

if the molecular weight is below 300

[crowbar46]

Test base is TNE--testosterone no ester.

Crowbar

[bioman]

Works fine for 4AD, 19Nor and 1Test so it should be fine for TNE.

[maddyfresh1]

anything special i have to do to dissolve it?

[bioman]

Warm it in some hot water, add powder in a little at a time and shake shake shake.

[maddyfresh1]

what about the absorption rate about 40% with pene? thinking about make it at 125mg/ml

[crowbar46]

I don't think you can make it that strong--check the product pages, Nutraplanet or PP.


Crowbar

[maddyfresh1]

think i would get pretty good gains with an absorption rate of 30-40% at 100mg..... Which means i probably will have to use a 3rd of the bottle to make it at 100mg.

[ThisGuy2]

I made a TB TD recently using phlo at 100mg concentration and it works GREAT. You need to grind it down in a ceramic mortar and pestle (don't try to skimp on this...you WILL have tiny chunks left unabsorbed on your skin if you do). Transfer this to a pyrex bowl over warm water (double boiler style) and dissolve. DMSO works WONDERS for this, and 10mL should suffice, without giving you garlic stink. Then incorporate into the penetrate (although my understanding was that phlo works better, which is why I went with that). Then, just to completely eliminate the smell of DMSO, I added 2mL of tea tree oil, and now the stuff actually smells nice.

Average absorption is estimated at 30% at best, but more like 35% if you use DMSO. I apply 1 and 1/4 mL twice daily for a total of 250mg ed. Times 7 days, that 1750mg, at 35% absorption you're looking at around 600mg weekly.

[maddyfresh1]

then i should just go with the phlogel. The only reason i was going to use the pene was because i had an old bottle. But i see the changed it now to more of a cream. And i see the phlogel can be mixed at a higher rate..

Did you just start it any before and after pics or a log?

[ThisGuy2]

then i should just go with the phlogel. The only reason i was going to use the pene was because i had an old bottle. But i see the changed it now to more of a cream. And i see the phlogel can be mixed at a higher rate..

Did you just start it any before and after pics or a log?

No pics or log. I can tell you I'm on week 4 now and up around 14lb very lean lb. I'm actually leaner than when I started. Of course, I'm also stacking w/ 100mg each proviron and anavar. The 100mg var might have helped a wee bit w/ that lb-age, but the provi probably hurt it. Ideally, I would've only used 50mg and not wiped out estro entirely, thus gaining a little more. I was so focused on drying out, I didn't even think of that.

I'll def add this to future cycles of whatever I run.

[maddyfresh1]

see i was thinking about making a tne trans. But not sure what to stack it with. I want more of a dry lean look. I was thinking about possible a boldenone and i have "var" but i dont know if its var. Probably because i tried a var only cycle, seemed a little leaner but who knows.

[ThisGuy2]

see i was thinking about making a tne trans. But not sure what to stack it with. I want more of a dry lean look. I was thinking about possible a boldenone and i have "var" but i dont know if its var. Probably because i tried a var only cycle, seemed a little leaner but who knows.

Only thing w/ bold is that you have to be able to control your eating, because the appetite onset is purported to be intense. Furthermore, bear in mind that the ester on bold is very long lasting, and that may play a role in cycle length. I don't think I'd run base for 12-14 weeks.

Personally, I've been considering for some time making a masteron TD at 100mg/mL. You could do a 6 week run with that of 250mg ed for a total of 1750, which would absorb at about 600mg. That's a nice amount of mast, and it don't get much leaner than that! I haven't really found any info from others on it, and I've been meaning to check the MW to see if it's feasible, but I keep forgetting.

[maddyfresh1]

i dont think it will work because it has an ester.. Only if you drop the ester then it might work. and the weight of that is 360.

[ThisGuy2]

i dont think it will work because it has an ester.. Only if you drop the ester then it might work. and the weight of that is 360.

Yeah, I just found it. Bummer. I've read there are ways to remove esters, but it's pretty damned complicated and usually not worth the effort, if I recall.

[maddyfresh1]

How about a tren TD and a tne td stacked, along with var oral...

[ThisGuy2]

How about a tren TD and a tne td stacked, along with var oral...

I've read tren TD works pretty damned well indeed. better than anything else, really. just need to have ancillaries on hand to combat bp, like catapres, and of course gyno. caber or bromo should handle that.

[ThisGuy2]

I've read tren TD works pretty damned well indeed. better than anything else, really. just need to have ancillaries on hand to combat bp, like catapres, and of course gyno. caber or bromo should handle that.

Occurs to me I wasn't totally clear on the problem if you experience gyno. If you experience gyno from the tren, it's a prolactin issue, which is in turn remedied by the caber or bromo. But if you experience it from estro rebound due to test, you'd need an AI. Thing is, if you're running both, you can't be sure which is causing, so you should be prepared on both ends.

Some claim that proviron at 50-100mg ed would work, and it's widely accepted that proviron allows test to work better by allowing more of it to bind to receptors. Personally, I've been running proviron alongside the base and it's worked perfectly. I also don't seem to be predisposed to gyno, based on several experiences w/ nor/estra-based phs. But I'd def get the proviron to run alongside, especially since it's cheap.

[crowbar46]

ThisGuy2: just to be certain I'm understanding you correctly, if you make a TD TNE with Plo you suggest adding DMSO (10 ml.) to the TNE after grinding it in order to facilitate disolving it?

After adding DMSO to the ground TNE will you still need to heat in a pyrex bowl in order to fully disolve?

Then I assume the disolved DMSO/TNE mixture is just added to the appropriate amount of Plo and drawn into an oral syringe, for example; or would the mixture still be to thick for an oral syringe?

Thanks,

Crowbar

[ThisGuy2]

ThisGuy2: just to be certain I'm understanding you correctly, if you make a TD TNE with Plo you suggest adding DMSO (10 ml.) to the TNE after grinding it in order to facilitate disolving it?

After adding DMSO to the ground TNE will you still need to heat in a pyrex bowl in order to fully disolve?

Then I assume the disolved DMSO/TNE mixture is just added to the appropriate amount of Plo and drawn into an oral syringe, for example; or would the mixture still be to thick for an oral syringe?

Thanks,

Crowbar

You don't need the DMSO. But it is a powerful and effective penetration enhancer, and a good solvent for disolving the raw. I'd def recommend it. You can get a bottle of 99.9% pure for around $7 (the purer, the better).

You could also skip the heating too, but this facilitates disolving much better. Bear in mind, we're not talking hot, just warm. On another post on here someone actually mentions the temp you want. To be accurate, you'd measure the water w/ a thermometer to avoid overheating and breaking the molecules down. Again, this is an extra step that can be skipped altogether and an effective homebrew still achieved. It just helps you dissolve it all more completely. At the end of the day, the more you're able to absorb, the better, right?

[crowbar46]

Is the final product--if you add the 10 Ml. of DMSO--thin enough to be drawn into an oral syringe?


Crowbar

[ThisGuy2]

Is the final product--if you add the 10 Ml. of DMSO--thin enough to be drawn into an oral syringe?


Crowbar

No. Phlojel is VERY thick. More so than lotion. Put it this way, you can put a glob of it on your shoulder/arm/etc. and leave it, walk around the house, and it won't run. You could conceivably put it in the open side and pack it to the end w/ the plunger. Probably need a bigger syringe though. Like a 10mL maybe. And at that, you're still probably going to be dosing no less than 2.5mL daily for decent results. Thus you'd need to refill the syringe every 4 days. Seems like a lot of trouble to me.

1tsp. is exactly = to 5mL (I checked this using liquid, and it's correct). Get yourself a 1/4tsp measuring spoon and apply that amount twice daily for a total of 2.5mL or 250mg daily. Just scoop it right out of the little tub of phlo.You could apply more too, but you'll need to use more surface area. I find the more clean skin you spread over, the better absorbed. Shoulders and inner arms (bis and fores) are my favorites. Inside lat/oblique area ain't bad either.

[crowbar46]

ThisGuy2, Thanks for all the info.

I know this is off topic--but related. It's been a long time since I've run any cycles of "real" gear. I used to be able years ago to get everything domestic; now I can still get pre-made stuff domestic, but raw powder only seems available overseas. I've never ordered international before and the thought of having to go to the post office and show ID and sign for a package just freaks me out--absolutely no desire to be mistaken for someone trying to "distribute" because I buy a little raw powders--but one source has a 100 g. minimum for test base. That just seems like you're asking for distribution charges.

Am I overreacting? Is it safe to sign for these packages?


Crowbar

[ThisGuy2]

ThisGuy2, Thanks for all the info.

I know this is off topic--but related. It's been a long time since I've run any cycles of "real" gear. I used to be able years ago to get everything domestic; now I can still get pre-made stuff domestic, but raw powder only seems available overseas. I've never ordered international before and the thought of having to go to the post office and show ID and sign for a package just freaks me out--absolutely no desire to be mistaken for someone trying to "distribute" because I buy a little raw powders--but one source has a 100 g. minimum for test base. That just seems like you're asking for distribution charges.

Am I overreacting? Is it safe to sign for these packages?

Crowbar

Well, I can't in good conscience tell you it's safe. There is always a risk with ordering such products from overseas. How much is debatable. I can say I've read many instances where people have repeatedly done so without consequence. Furthermore, you'd likely be much better off ordering 10g, which can be found online, as opposed to 100g, which there is no question is a distribution-size amount. 10g is enough for a 6 week run at the aforementioned dosage, btw.

[crowbar46]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know the place you're talking about. Have you used them without problems? I was doing some research and people on a particular board--with a LOT of experience with this company--were saying that they had gotten less effecient in shipping, and some people (especially in the US) were having problems with packages being held up in customs for months.


Crowbar

[dumbhick3]

Well, I can't in good conscience tell you it's safe. There is always a risk with ordering such products from overseas. How much is debatable. I can say I've read many instances where people have repeatedly done so without consequence. Furthermore, you'd likely be much better off ordering 10g, which can be found online, as opposed to 100g, which there is no question is a distribution-size amount. 10g is enough for a 6 week run at the aforementioned dosage, btw.

I think a lot of people get away with ordering 10 or 100g packages of raws from overseas, just based on reading AAS forums. But I've read a few threads where things didn't go so smoothly. One guy went to the PO to get his package (raw powder) but lots of environmental ques put him on the alert (things, ppl, and instructions that aren't part of the required procedure to pick up a package). Anyway, he said he didn't recognize the sender, it wasn't his package, and he left. The guy waiting at the PO (probably a postal inspector/arm) was even trying to make the guy stay verbally (again, odd) and speak to the manager or sign for it or something, but the guy wasn't hearing that $hit and left in a hurry. Nothing came of it, presumably b/c he never signed for and took delivery of the package. He could have been charged if he left a paper trail online presumably-he didn't say anything about that.

The bad thing about raw powder via mail is when packages get damaged and white powder starts to leak out and...well, you get the idea (is it anthrax? is it cocaine?). I have a lot of relatives that work at the PO BTW. The risk is low, but not non-negligible.

One of my close PO relatives has seen in person a massive steroid bust of a competitive bodybuilder, and a few street drugs busts (and nearly got in the way once). The steroid bust was domestic-a CA to SC operation. When they searched the dude's house later, he had ~3,000 pre-filled syringes in his walls (WTF) that he was distributing at a local gym (hmm...think somebody talked?). Now he's competing in the Department of Corrections invitational. Regarding the drug-mail busts, I am told that many of the musicians that visit the area where one of my PO relatives lives mail drugs to themselves so they will be there when they get there to perform (coke, weed, etc). Pretty stupid and pretty common for that area at least, but back to the white powder issue...

Anything involving the PO means federal charges instead of state charges by statute. The state could additionally charge you for other offenses perhaps. Federal courts have close to a 90% conviction rate which is much higher than state courts.

The 10 versus 100g could possibly help avoid a distribution charge on the whim that you actually get busted. You would still likely have to make a case for non-distribution though b/c they will convolute the math and see how many esterified amps you could make from the raw base powder, etc (maybe slight exaggeration, but they may try to hit you with intent to distribute either way). But in either case, you will be charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance and conspiracy to distribute or conspiracy to possess a controlled substance and possibly possession of a controlled substance if you get busted after taking delivery of the package. Those conspiracy charges have at least as many teeth as a standard distribution charge, and it probably won't be concurrent sentencing either.

Most likely your package will arrive undamaged, etc. However, your package could arrive damaged (and suspiciously leaking), or the notice could get put in the wrong person's box.

I may be giving the raw suppliers too little credit though. Hopefully, they have a more creative way of packing raw powder than the stereotypical "bag". I've never ordered any (was considering it at one point), so I don't know much about that aspect.

If you do go that route though, I'll be curious to see what the TD base results are like versus esterified IM.

[dumbhick3]

Only thing w/ bold is that you have to be able to control your eating, because the appetite onset is purported to be intense. Furthermore, bear in mind that the ester on bold is very long lasting, and that may play a role in cycle length. I don't think I'd run base for 12-14 weeks.

Personally, I've been considering for some time making a masteron TD at 100mg/mL. You could do a 6 week run with that of 250mg ed for a total of 1750, which would absorb at about 600mg. That's a nice amount of mast, and it don't get much leaner than that! I haven't really found any info from others on it, and I've been meaning to check the MW to see if it's feasible, but I keep forgetting.

I have a friend who ran EQ (bold undeclyn) solo for FIVE months! He obviously has a ton of money, but that is apparent from his $8,000 suits and $15,000 watch. He said it was a pretty mild cycle in terms of sides (20 weeks...) and the gains were steady and permanent for him.

He only cycles every few years I think, and he actually had to drop about 20 lbs of LBM over time at one point b/c he got sick of having to eat so much to maintain it (he was like 5'6 or 5'7, 216 lbs; now about 191 and still very stout). It probably wasn't after the bold cycle since you rarely hear ppl complain about a lack of appetite on bold.

BTW, I am not saying running bold that long is a good idea (or anything for that matter). He is actually very health conscious and not a dummy about these things, but a 20 week cycle...well, ppl have certainly done far worse!

That masteron TD sounds like an awesome idea. The veins would probably start popping out right after you got done rubbing it in!

[ThisGuy2]

I have a friend who ran EQ (bold undeclyn) solo for FIVE months! He obviously has a ton of money, but that is apparent from his $8,000 suits and $15,000 watch. He said it was a pretty mild cycle in terms of sides (20 weeks...) and the gains were steady and permanent for him.

He only cycles every few years I think, and he actually had to drop about 20 lbs of LBM over time at one point b/c he got sick of having to eat so much to maintain it (he was like 5'6 or 5'7, 216 lbs; now about 191 and still very stout). It probably wasn't after the bold cycle since you rarely hear ppl complain about a lack of appetite on bold.

BTW, I am not saying running bold that long is a good idea (or anything for that matter). He is actually very health conscious and not a dummy about these things, but a 20 week cycle...well, ppl have certainly done far worse!

That masteron TD sounds like an awesome idea. The veins would probably start popping out right after you got done rubbing it in!

Yeah, but unfortunately the MW of mast is 304...just above the cutoff MW of 300 for effective absorption. I'm thinking of looking into how you knock off the ester to see if it really is that complicated. Also...just making a suspension and pinning it.

[ThisGuy2]

I think a lot of people get away with ordering 10 or 100g packages of raws from overseas, just based on reading AAS forums. But I've read a few threads where things didn't go so smoothly. One guy went to the PO to get his package (raw powder) but lots of environmental ques put him on the alert (things, ppl, and instructions that aren't part of the required procedure to pick up a package). Anyway, he said he didn't recognize the sender, it wasn't his package, and he left. The guy waiting at the PO (probably a postal inspector/arm) was even trying to make the guy stay verbally (again, odd) and speak to the manager or sign for it or something, but the guy wasn't hearing that $hit and left in a hurry. Nothing came of it, presumably b/c he never signed for and took delivery of the package. He could have been charged if he left a paper trail online presumably-he didn't say anything about that.

The bad thing about raw powder via mail is when packages get damaged and white powder starts to leak out and...well, you get the idea (is it anthrax? is it cocaine?). I have a lot of relatives that work at the PO BTW. The risk is low, but not non-negligible.

One of my close PO relatives has seen in person a massive steroid bust of a competitive bodybuilder, and a few street drugs busts (and nearly got in the way once). The steroid bust was domestic-a CA to SC operation. When they searched the dude's house later, he had ~3,000 pre-filled syringes in his walls (WTF) that he was distributing at a local gym (hmm...think somebody talked?). Now he's competing in the Department of Corrections invitational. Regarding the drug-mail busts, I am told that many of the musicians that visit the area where one of my PO relatives lives mail drugs to themselves so they will be there when they get there to perform (coke, weed, etc). Pretty stupid and pretty common for that area at least, but back to the white powder issue...

Anything involving the PO means federal charges instead of state charges by statute. The state could additionally charge you for other offenses perhaps. Federal courts have close to a 90% conviction rate which is much higher than state courts.

The 10 versus 100g could possibly help avoid a distribution charge on the whim that you actually get busted. You would still likely have to make a case for non-distribution though b/c they will convolute the math and see how many esterified amps you could make from the raw base powder, etc (maybe slight exaggeration, but they may try to hit you with intent to distribute either way). But in either case, you will be charged with conspiracy to import a controlled substance and conspiracy to distribute or conspiracy to possess a controlled substance and possibly possession of a controlled substance if you get busted after taking delivery of the package. Those conspiracy charges have at least as many teeth as a standard distribution charge, and it probably won't be concurrent sentencing either.

Most likely your package will arrive undamaged, etc. However, your package could arrive damaged (and suspiciously leaking), or the notice could get put in the wrong person's box.

I may be giving the raw suppliers too little credit though. Hopefully, they have a more creative way of packing raw powder than the stereotypical "bag". I've never ordered any (was considering it at one point), so I don't know much about that aspect.

If you do go that route though, I'll be curious to see what the TD base results are like versus esterified IM.

All very good points, and useful insight.

As to effects, I'm entering week 6 tomorrow, up ~17lb. from the dosing sked I mentioned. VERY lean too...though 100mg ed of var and proviron may have assisted there. Needless to say, I'm happy.

[ThisGuy2]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know the place you're talking about. Have you used them without problems? I was doing some research and people on a particular board--with a LOT of experience with this company--were saying that they had gotten less effecient in shipping, and some people (especially in the US) were having problems with packages being held up in customs for months.


Crowbar

My 1 purchase resulted in no problems. Got my package promptly, undamaged.

[maddyfresh1]

i could care less about the gyno right now thats linked to tren(not being rude) i have gyno anyways.(puberty gyno) I plan i getting the surgery but thats besides the point. Has anyone seen any before and after pics with a td tne or tren?

And i have an older bottle of pene, thats more alcohol based. Think it will work just as well?

[maddyfresh1]

knocking off the ester isnt to hard but 304 and 300 would really make that big of a differences? I thought masteron was ester free though?

[ThisGuy2]

i could care less about the gyno right now thats linked to tren(not being rude) i have gyno anyways.(puberty gyno) I plan i getting the surgery but thats besides the point. Has anyone seen any before and after pics with a td tne or tren?

And i have an older bottle of pene, thats more alcohol based. Think it will work just as well?

Not sure. I've personally never used penetrate. It'd be more watery, I assume.

[ThisGuy2]

knocking off the ester isnt to hard but 304 and 300 would really make that big of a differences? I thought masteron was ester free though?

Typically you get drostanolone propionate, so you have a prop ester. My understanding is that 300 is the cutoff of MW size to effectively be absorbed. I've yet to find any info on anyone else trying it, so I'm thinking people haven't tried due to the fact you'd need to drop the ester to make it work.

Got a link to good info on dropping the ester? I'm gonna look into it further.

[dumbhick3]

Typically you get drostanolone propionate, so you have a prop ester. My understanding is that 300 is the cutoff of MW size to effectively be absorbed. I've yet to find any info on anyone else trying it, so I'm thinking people haven't tried due to the fact you'd need to drop the ester to make it work.

Got a link to good info on dropping the ester? I'm gonna look into it further.

I wouldn't call it a good link, but it seems to imply that de-esterification is simple in a chemistry lab but not so simple at home. I think you might need a catalyst for the reaction to occur, some micron filters, an organic chemistry book, and then you would need to clean up the final product (most likely) to remove any toxic leftovers, probably via recrystallization or something very impractical like that (wildly speculating).

It's so close to 300 that it seems like a small amount of it in penetrate or similar would be worth a test run. It should be obvious pretty quickly if it is having the desired effect (assuming you can get some of it dissolved into the penetrate solution/matrix).

http://www.dow.com/liquidseps/prod/sp_esterif.htm