Is Bro Science and perfect form a bunch of crap?

[LovingtoLift]

I'm sitting here today thinking about men of ancient times, who lived off meat, Fish, homemade breads, eggs, and potatoes every single day and had great physiques. Guys who didn't know the term "Macros." Guys who would build walls and castles and had shoulders the size of boulders. They lifted with all their strength, and worrying about perfect form was something that was unheard of. When you lift rocks you don't give a **** how close to your body your elbow position is. You just ****ing LIFT and LIFT Heavy.

So why so much input on this stuff? Why not just LIFT heavy, EAT, and GROW? If it takes you a little extra effort from other parts of your body to lift something, then just LIFT it.

What is your opinion on perfect form and counting macros? Thousands of men have never counted a macro in their life. They just built massive physiques eating Meat and Potatoes and lifting heavy weight. Did they look like physique competitors? Probably not. But they for sure looked like guys who could bench 400 pounds without breaking a sweat. Without the big gut you see on strongmen.

 

[Driven2lift]

Depends on whether your goal is to compete or not, and if it is physique or not.

Also the "ancient times" comparison is effectively irrelevant just because there are sooo many differences.

Im sure you could look and feel just fine while stressing less over things

 

[Gutterpump]

Sure, it's a bunch of crap if you don't care about proper mechanics, if you don't care to be as strong as you possibly can be, if you don't care about injuries, if you don't want to progress optimally and be safe.

Perfect form allows your body to move in the way it was meant to move, which means you will move more weight, get stronger, grow more, and be safe.

Sure you could also do guesswork when it comes to diet, but that's a lot of wasted effort. If you don't count your macros, then you will never know what works for you, or what needs tweaking.

 

[Gutterpump]

Also something to consider, people of ancient times (and even in less developed countries) have much high mobility / far less structural issues because they didn't have desk jobs, they didn't have people addicted to mobile phone use, causing havoc on pasture. They stood far more often than they sit. They were generally more active throughout the day. Anterior/posterior pelvic tilt? Upper-cross syndrome? Likely not even a concern back then.

 

[SXIPro]

Let's see some real pictures of these men from ancient times please. In most ancient civilizations both the men and women were puny by today's standards. Unless you are talking myths and/or legends of course.

 

[Gutterpump]

Zeus was jacked!!

 

[Driven2lift]

Zeus was jacked!!

The real first Olympia winner.

They say his stage presence was "electric"

 

[Justlooking5]

Can you give an example of a guy from ancient times who followed the diet you lay out and had a great physique? Any pics? How do we know the statue/painting depicting him wasn't exaggerated? Was he genetically gifted in muscularity? A middle-ages Ronnie Coleman? Or was he someone of average genetics?

I think lifting heavy and eating "meat/potatoes" are the most important core aspects of gaining muscle, but the reason we have physiques today that are definitively more muscular/lean than those of ancient times is because of progression of knowledge (which includes training techniques, supplements, drugs, etc.)

 

[Justlooking5]

I do think strict "perfect form" is overblown though. Once you lift heavy you should strive for good form, but textbook perfect form isn't always possible on those heavier sets, and big guys like Coleman etc. do use looser form.

 

[NurseGray]

Many times "bro science" has turned out to be "real science" years later. Ancient times really isn't a factor that can be compared to now. We only really know ancient times by what we have been told and we all know how the game telephone worked. Plus there is a motivation factor involved. Build a wall or get whipped by the foreman. Build a wall or die by your enemy. Eat less and lift more because the crops weren't producing this harvest. Now fast forward to the only motivation is don't lift and all that happens is you don't get the lift. Life or death is much more of a motivator than self gratification

 

[Balthazar]

I do think strict "perfect form" is overblown though. Once you lift heavy you should strive for good form, but textbook perfect form isn't always possible on those heavier sets, and big guys like Coleman etc. do use looser form.

Strict form is more important for some lifts than others but as justlooking mentions you're always going to falter at least a little with a very difficult effort. And quite frankly hitting those attempts that are maximal effort with less than ideal form are going to stimulate you and create the precedent to eventually feel comfortable at that level and complete them with better form in the future.

 

[UCSMiami]

Let's see some real pictures of these men from ancient times please. In most ancient civilizations both the men and women were puny by today's standards. Unless you are talking myths and/or legends of course.

Absolutely true and yet I have seen some of the sculptures in questions and wondered on the diet and training of the real life examples.

Pardon the nudity.

Rennaissance era
Hercules rear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_and_Cacus#/media/File:Hercules_by_Baccio_Bandinelli.jpg
Front:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_and_Cacus#/media/File:Hercule_et_Cacus_Bandinelli_Florence_Signoria.jpg

Ancient era
Philolog: Glykon's Farnese Herakles Sculpture as Myth Narrative

To answer the OPs question I believe we today do not need necessarily need macros because after a bit we know how much to eat and what to eat. It is intuitive as it would be in an earlier era. Today's lifting science is geared to maximizing workout and lessening injury so a person can lift weights literally their entire adult life.

And then there are other considerations, the physiques from the past we see in stone are presumably the cream of the crop and selected by the artist for emphasis.[They appear genetically gifted for muscle as we see in some today.] They may also be some exaggerations in form as Michelangelo's David has oversized hands for his frame size. I am not an Art History student and someone in that field can better provide input if what we see is the ideal or idealized.

Here is an ancient example of a fit person but not a bodybuilder as the ones above:
https://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/italy/rome/capitolinemuseumtwo/dyinggaul.html This is one of my favorite pieces btw.

 

[puccah8808]

One day I asked one of the best powerlifter ever what he thought about form. His reply was, "well, you always want to have great form but once in a while you just have to get that fcuker up, hit a PR, then go back to worrying about your form."

 

[Gutterpump]

This is true. I've never seen a 1RM executed with perfect form

 

[JudoJosh]

Perfect form is largely nonsense

 

[JeremyNG25]

Form isn't going to always be perfect just make sure you aren't a nominee for an "idiots at the gym" YouTube video

 

[kisaj]

To answer the OPs question I believe we today do not need necessarily need macros because after a bit we know how much to eat and what to eat. It is intuitive as it would be in an earlier era. Today's lifting science is geared to maximizing workout and lessening injury so a person can lift weights literally their entire adult life.

One day I asked one of the best powerlifter ever what he thought about form. His reply was, "well, you always want to have great form but once in a while you just have to get that fcuker up, hit a PR, then go back to worrying about your form."

Perfect form is largely nonsense

Agree with all this.

 

[McCrew530]

I am sure that if you ate an additive free whole diet that was bases off of a protein Ritch diet with non processed grains mixed in with an active life that consisted on manual labor and minimal down time how you picked up that log or plowed your field really wouldn't matter. You would be working your body every day and filing it with whole food that your body could easily process.

 

[UCSMiami]

I have wondered how much more nutritional value was in those red yoke eggs from grandparent's farm where the chickens ran free compared to even Costco/Kirkland Organic eggs which I use now.

I recall reading Canadian backwoodsmen were used on a military expedition in the 1880s due to their expertise in handling small craft but they were found to be a liability compared to the normal troops because they were accustomed to consuming an estimated 5000 calories per day.

here is a bit of reading: http://www.hbcheritage.ca/teacher-resources/TG-HBC-Voyageur-ENG.pdf

in short:
labored 14 hours per day
carry 180lbs over land up to 3miles between water transport
Water travel of up to 100miles daily maintaining 50strokes per minute when afloat in a canoe weighing 300lbs with 5850lbs of cargo. Three men per canoe.