on-cycle while trying to lose fat as well?

[ncj01]

I was considering going on a 30 day of DMZ-2.0.

At the same time, i still have fat to lose - so i'll have to eat a cal deficit.

Bad idea?


Wait till i get most of the fat off and then do the cycle while eating a cal surplus?

thnx!
N

lift 3x/wk all body each time
2.5+ yrs in it now
Eating 60/20/20 (pro/carb/fat) @ 1800cal/day
205lb, 6-1, 40yr old

 

[02sixxer]

Eat at you current maintnance and train hard. SDMZ 2.0 is very dry and will take some fat off if you eat mainnance, however it is a superb bulker so you are really waisting a bottle if using it to cut. Id rather use it to lean bulk, then cut post PCT. But thats just me.

Back to the question at hand. What is your maintnance cals. 1800 a day is very low. That is a hard cut normally for someone your size 200+ lbs.

Have you ever ran a PH like SDMZ 2.0. it is some great stuff for lean bulking. Adds great muscle mass, strength, and can cut som fat. However, if you have more then 18% you will not see a huge change in body comp simply because of the amount of fat covering the muscle. You will feel harder, get better pumps during a workout, and be stronger, but wont see the major change in the muscles.

I wont ever tell someon don't run a PH, because that would be hypicritical of me. But there is a more profound result the leaner you are.

 

[ncj01]

Great info, thanks!

Sounds like i need to lose some more fat first, then do a cycle correctly with better calories.
Specifically maybe go over maintenance ~200/day?

I guess i'm around 19-20% BF right now at my 205lbs. Probably should get down to low teens, then go ahead and gain ~10lbs during a 30day cycle...?

As for maintenence, I think probably 2800/day w/out exercise, and ~3200/day with exercise is maintenance for me at this weight.
I choose 1800/day for a 1000/day deficit, 7000/wk deficiti, which is ~2lbs/fat/wk....? Seemed reasonable..?

 

[fueledpassion]

Eating a caloric deficit starves muscle, not burn fat. For every lb of fat u might burn, expect similar amounts to be burned in muscle. It takes 2500 excess calories per week to manufacture 1 pound of new muscle...

Eat low efficiency foods like potatoes, yams, rice, chicken, fish etc and keep saturated fats very low, and unsaturated fats at a minimum to remain healthy but avoid surplus calories in fats. They dont serve u as well as carbs do.

If cutting calories is how u lose fat, then you'll always have the problem of not being satisfied with the muscle that u do have, even if ur lean. Cutting simple sugars and minimizing fats while doing aerobic activity is how u lose fat. Eating quality protein and carbs ALL day while doing anaerobic activity is how u build muscle.

They can be done at the same time, especially on cycle. But it isnt for amatuers to say the least...

 

[fueledpassion]

If u want to burn a lb of fat per week, which is the max reasonable goal to have, you should do 45 - 60 minutes of cardio PER DAY with a high quality, high calorie diet. Something like 300-400 kcals over maintenance, specifically avoiding fats and simple sugars.

 

[02sixxer]

^^^ I would agree with most of this above. However, I think a high caloric diet is subjective to each individual. What I consider high you may not and vise versa. My cutting phase I do lower cals under normal maintnance and add cardio. However, I focus more on my cardio then I do lowering of calories. You really need to know you maintnance to have an effective diet. Mine is roughly 2500 cals. When bulking I go up to 3400 and when cutting the lowest I go is 2,000 however I like the 2500 rang with quality cardio.

 

[fueledpassion]

^^^ I would agree with most of this above. However, I think a high caloric diet is subjective to each individual. What I consider high you may not and vise versa. My cutting phase I do lower cals under normal maintnance and add cardio. However, I focus more on my cardio then I do lowering of calories. You really need to know you maintnance to have an effective diet. Mine is roughly 2500 cals. When bulking I go up to 3400 and when cutting the lowest I go is 2,000 however I like the 2500 rang with quality cardio.

That is sound advice. And I purposely remained vague about the whole calorie comment because each person has a very different metabolism and caloric maintenance level. Mine is around 2700 calories, yet I am 55lbs lighter than you..(as an example)...

Yet to keep my post simple I will remain where I was, which is that I believe you can build muscle and lost fat simultaneously as long as the diet has a high caloric intake, whatever that number might be, and consistent, rigourous cardio throughout the week. Train like a pro-athlete basically...

 

[ncj01]

Thanks guys. I'm really trying to hold the line.

MWF lifts, Tu/Thu Cardio, then I do recreation-cardio on weekends, like bicycle.

Getting pathalogical about the eating, hitting macros, which are 50+%protien, and about even split on the carb/fats, while calories are right in the 1800 range. That has me losing around 1 to 1.5 per week.

 

[asooneyeonig]

Eating a caloric deficit starves muscle, not burn fat. For every lb of fat u might burn, expect similar amounts to be burned in muscle. It takes 2500 excess calories per week to manufacture 1 pound of new muscle...

Eat low efficiency foods like potatoes, yams, rice, chicken, fish etc and keep saturated fats very low, and unsaturated fats at a minimum to remain healthy but avoid surplus calories in fats. They dont serve u as well as carbs do.

If cutting calories is how u lose fat, then you'll always have the problem of not being satisfied with the muscle that u do have, even if ur lean. Cutting simple sugars and minimizing fats while doing aerobic activity is how u lose fat. Eating quality protein and carbs ALL day while doing anaerobic activity is how u build muscle.

They can be done at the same time, especially on cycle. But it isnt for amatuers to say the least...

wow, thank you ancel keys clone. i mean that with a very negative connotation towards your comment not you as a person as i would prefer to not get so personal on an internet forum. it is still my opinion based upon many facts that dietary fat is not bad and is actually needed in higher amounts than most of us eat. i also believe saturated fats have a place in a diet.

it is a fact that insulin is the key to fat storage and fat usage. when you are storing fat due to an increase in insulin, due to an increase in blood sugar levels, you cannot use body fat for fuel. that point is agreed upon by both sides of the dietary argument of low carb or low fat. here is where opinions differentiate but science does not. carbs, especially refined carbs, elevate blood sugar the most and the quickest therefore creating the greatest increase in insulin. as pointed out in the beginning of this paragraph increased insulin prevents the usage of body fat, or adipose tissue, as fuel. so why would one really on carbs when they want to cut body fat? it seems counter productive.

now i am not referencing at all about gaining muscle and any dietary effects. just on using bodyfat as fuel and dietary effects.

 

[fueledpassion]

wow, thank you ancel keys clone. i mean that with a very negative connotation towards your comment not you as a person as i would prefer to not get so personal on an internet forum. it is still my opinion based upon many facts that dietary fat is not bad and is actually needed in higher amounts than most of us eat. i also believe saturated fats have a place in a diet.

it is a fact that insulin is the key to fat storage and fat usage. when you are storing fat due to an increase in insulin, due to an increase in blood sugar levels, you cannot use body fat for fuel. that point is agreed upon by both sides of the dietary argument of low carb or low fat. here is where opinions differentiate but science does not. carbs, especially refined carbs, elevate blood sugar the most and the quickest therefore creating the greatest increase in insulin. as pointed out in the beginning of this paragraph increased insulin prevents the usage of body fat, or adipose tissue, as fuel. so why would one really on carbs when they want to cut body fat? it seems counter productive.

now i am not referencing at all about gaining muscle and any dietary effects. just on using bodyfat as fuel and dietary effects.

This is where my opinion varies slightly from yours. Too much insulin at one time causes fat storage, hence, the reason complex carbs and fiber should be included at every meal and simple sugars should be avoided. 200 calories of straight sugar will have a different effect than 200 calories of sweet potatoes. One is complex and loaded with fiber, the other is not. The simple sugars will cause a large inuslin secretion in a short period of time, in which, a small percentage goes to muscle glycogen & liver glycogen and the rest will likely be put up as fat. This is a normal response from the body when a surge of glycogen hits the blood stream. It is also why a number of people will experience a sugar crash some time after a sweet meal. The insulin literally strips the blood of its sugar and stores it as fat, causing a crash

If you don't have a super disciplined diet, you can't benefit from this method at all. You'll only get bigger, not leaner. Insulin is absolutely necessary for muscle building. And yes, too much insulin causes fat storage too which is why most people resort to the theory "you can't build muscle and burn fat simlultaneously". However, if you cause small, steady insulin release in the blood stream, you get a constant anabolic environment without the fat storage. It can only be done with a professional diet. You cannot eat simple sugars or refined carbs, you must keep a high fiber presence, and you need to keep a low fat diet to further ward off any fat storage. Sure, there are EFA's - which I take regularly. But I dont need 'X' amount of fats to remain healthy. I need the daily EFA's, which I find in 2 servings of Tilapia and in GLA supplements. Yet I still keep my fats below 10% of my total caloric intake.

I'm a guy who likes to "have my cake and eat it too". I usually try to find win-win situations for myself in the gym. How do I have the best of both worlds? This diet is it IMO. No, I don't pack on fast muscle. No, I don't burn fat quickly. But both are headed in the right direction, steadily, and due to my diet it is impossible for me to get any fatter than I am. When my macro's for fats/carbs/proteins/MCT look like 7/50/35/7, it is really hard to do anything but pack on slow, solid weight. At some point, your body becomes so efficient at processing carbs that you can literally eat 400-500g carbs per day, doing nothing but giving yourself energy for an awesome training session. Granted, with this diet also demands regular cardio, which I believe is often times a missing link for lifters.

Addressing the common concern for insulin blocking the body's ability to burn fat - this is only the case when you have food in the stomach. A good time to do cardio on such a diet as mine is first thing in the morning when your stomach is empty and insulin is nowhere to be found. Also, generally speaking, right after weight-training is also a good time since glycogen levels are depleted and again, insulin is nowhere to be found. Such times utilize fat energy almost exclusively. Couple that regular AM cardio with a low fat diet and you get ripped all while keeping your muscle.

Again, the whole blood sugar/too much insulin problem is quickly solved by eating at every meal a portion of protein/complex carbs/fiber and staying away from simple sugars and refined carbs. This is specifically why I said "But it isnt for amatuers to say the least..."