Push/Pull

[Matt Hatchett]

Noticed a lot of training logs where people are, for example, doing chest/Bicep exercises on the same day. Are there any advantages of this over the push/pull split or is it personal preference?

[bobbymac]

I personally feel like it's best to try different routines and see what your body responds to the best. I can tell you after almost 20 years of training, my body does the best training chest/back together, biceps and triceps together, and doing legs by themselves.

[Matt Hatchett]

I personally feel like it's best to try different routines and see what your body responds to the best. I can tell you after almost 20 years of training, my body does the best training chest/back together, biceps and triceps together, and doing legs by themselves.

So it's just personal preference? I was doing some reading the other day and came across some information about upper back and chest working together to increase bench. Obviously I'm still learning as I go but to me the push/pull kinda split seems like it would allow you to focus on muscles more individually instead of working muscles with opposite movements hence the push/pull. It just looks counterproductive to me, I was just curious I guess.

[bobbymac]

Arnold was a BIG believer in chest/back training. Whether you realize it or not, your back plays a huge role in chest/bench work. So when you superset chest/back, your chest is getting a phenomenal workout. If you have never tried this type of routine, I would HIGHLY recommend it.

[Matt Hatchett]

The whole reason I came across that info was because I'm start the 5/3/1 program. I bought the Ebook and it is packed with info. Although it doesn't make sense to me, now that I think about it I keep seeing posts on doing Kroc rows on chest day to increase your bench. Learning something new every time I log into this site!

[Rodja]

The whole reason I came across that info was because I'm start the 5/3/1 program. I bought the Ebook and it is packed with info. Although it doesn't make sense to me, now that I think about it I keep seeing posts on doing Kroc rows on chest day to increase your bench. Learning something new every time I log into this site!

5/3/1 is not a program that is based on muscles; it is based on movements. To classify bench as a chest lift is incorrect.

[Matt Hatchett]

Not a chest movement? Please explain

[Rodja]

Not a chest movement? Please explain

The bench press is a full body exercise that requires tightness from your calves to your upper traps. Leg drive and lats are critical for the initial portion off of the chest and triceps take over between 4-6" off of the chest. Benching is more about lats, traps, and triceps than pecs. 5/3/1 is not a BB'ing program and if you go in with that mentality, you're selling yourself short and wasting time. Technique is the most critical aspect of PL'ing and it is very different from BB'ing "technique."

[Matt Hatchett]

That makes sense. I never would have guessed it took all of that to do bench press properly. The main reason I'm trying the 5/3/1 is to increase some of my lifts after being stuck at the same weight for some time now. After reading Wendler's Ebook and what you just said it seems I still have a lot to learn but that's part of it. I appreciate the info!

[Rodja]

[Mafesto31]

The bench press is a full body exercise that requires tightness from your calves to your upper traps. Leg drive and lats are critical for the initial portion off of the chest and triceps take over between 4-6" off of the chest. Benching is more about lats, traps, and triceps than pecs. 5/3/1 is not a BB'ing program and if you go in with that mentality, you're selling yourself short and wasting time. Technique is the most critical aspect of PL'ing and it is very different from BB'ing "technique."

The boring but big layout for 5/3/1 would be a nice bodybuilding routine for a few weeks imo

[Rodja]

The boring but big layout for 5/3/1 would be a nice bodybuilding routine for a few weeks imo

Not a fan of that assistance template since most people's technique sucks for 3 reps much less 10. It does more harm than good since it reinforces bad technique.

[napalm]

The boring but big layout for 5/3/1 would be a nice bodybuilding routine for a few weeks imo

No it wouldn't. Any routine will have minimal, if any impact over the period of a couple weeks. The bbb template is to be used over months, not weeks. As rodja mentioned, 5/3/1 wasn't designed with bb'rs in mind. Can bb'rs use it with success? Maybe, but it would need to be tweaked alot and once that's done, it's not 5/3/1 anymore. I'm currently doing bbb with some pretty good results, but I'm not a bb'r.

<---did squats yesterday, had a good bit of trouble getting off the toilet this morning.

[Mafesto31]

No it wouldn't. Any routine will have minimal, if any impact over the period of a couple weeks. The bbb template is to be used over months, not weeks. As rodja mentioned, 5/3/1 wasn't designed with bb'rs in mind. Can bb'rs use it with success? Maybe, but it would need to be tweaked alot and once that's done, it's not 5/3/1 anymore. I'm currently doing bbb with some pretty good results, but I'm not a bb'r.

<---did squats yesterday, had a good bit of trouble getting off the toilet this morning.

Sorry I was meaning to say a couple months and yes I've had success as far as mass gains using 5/3/1 adding more reps/sets after the initial lifts.

[ZiR RED]

The whole reason I came across that info was because I'm start the 5/3/1 program. I bought the Ebook and it is packed with info. Although it doesn't make sense to me, now that I think about it I keep seeing posts on doing Kroc rows on chest day to increase your bench. Learning something new every time I log into this site!

There's also some research that shows training agonist/antagonist results in greater performance and strength. Some of it is motor programming, some of it is the repetitive inhibition of the antognist.

WRT to 5/3/1 and bodybuilding, I had an interesting conversation with a client this morning. He asked why I had him doing a few blocks of 2-4 rep work after he read in NSCA that hypertrophy rep range was much higher. I replied that by increasing strength now, it would translate into a greater load used during hypertrophy based training, resulting in greater gains during the hypertrophy blocks.

Br

[Rodja]

There's also some research that shows training agonist/antagonist results in greater performance and strength. Some of it is motor programming, some of it is the repetitive inhibition of the antognist.

WRT to 5/3/1 and bodybuilding, I had an interesting conversation with a client this morning. He asked why I had him doing a few blocks of 2-4 rep work after he read in NSCA that hypertrophy rep range was much higher. I replied that by increasing strength now, it would translate into a greater load used during hypertrophy based training, resulting in greater gains during the hypertrophy blocks.

Br

This is the reason why I am so frustrated with the NSCA. Their whole Western periodization scheme drives me nuts.

[ZiR RED]

This is the reason why I am so frustrated with the NSCA. Their whole Western periodization scheme drives me nuts.

Indeed, especially in most cases where they try to squeeze a 4 year olympic training model (designed for a single peak period) into 16 or 20 weeks.

On the other hand, I think if you are working with inexperienced athletes (those with young training ages...especially high school) then adopting the olympic model (as a full 2-4 year plan) and spending a significant amount of time on remedial and work accumulation, and planning for an overall peak the senior season is a great idea.

Br

[Rodja]

Indeed, especially in most cases where they try to squeeze a 4 year olympic training model (designed for a single peak period) into 16 or 20 weeks.

On the other hand, I think if you are working with inexperienced athletes (those with young training ages...especially high school) then adopting the olympic model (as a full 2-4 year plan) and spending a significant amount of time on remedial and work accumulation, and planning for an overall peak the senior season is a great idea.

Br

Agreed. S&C coaches at that level should have long-term, yet adjustable, plans for the athlete depending on their growth, injuries, and particular sport(s). For freshman, the entire year should be about nothing but technique with an occasional arm day to give them a reward for their work.

[napalm]

This is the reason why I am so frustrated with the NSCA. Their whole Western periodization scheme drives me nuts.

rodja, and br for that matter, can you guys expound on this a little? i'm thinking very seriously about taking the cscs

thanks,

steve

edit: i understand western periodization, i'm interested why you're frustrated with the nsca about it

[Rodja]

rodja, and br for that matter, can you guys expound on this a little? i'm thinking very seriously about taking the cscs

thanks,

steve

edit: i understand western periodization, i'm interested why you're frustrated with the nsca about it

It is a very flawed system that trains a specific skill set for only a small amount of time instead of integrating them concurrently and waving the percentages/loads. Also, there is no incorporation of the dynamic effort at any point.