Post Activation Potentiation

[DJBeanPole]

Has anyone else ever heard of this type of training (referred to as P.A.P.)?

It is the core segment in Phase 3 of P90X2 which i have just started and I love it.

More about it here: Postactivation Potentiation

It is essentially a resistance exercise immediately followed by a plyometric/explosive exercise, and P90X2 finishes it off with an isometric move that is absolutely killer. I have not trained like this before but I'm really liking it. After my first round of PAP Lower my legs were all types of jelly and were wiggling uncontrollably while I was mixing my post workout shake. I knew things were working. PAP Upper knocked me on my ass. Can't wait to keep going for me.

Endurance athletes typically have lower percentages of fast twitch (Type II) muscle fibers when compared to slow twitch (Type I) muscle fibers. Past research has shown a greater PAP response is seen in individuals engaging in activities that involve more Type II fiber types (Hamada, Sale, & MacDougall, 2000). However, researchers have revealed that endurance trained individuals also show an increase in the maximum shortening velocity of their Type I fibers after a PAP intervention (Hamada, Sale, MacDougall). Additionally, Hamada et al. believe that endurance athletes have an increased resistance to fatigue, allowing the PAP effect to prevail over fatigue.

Thoughts?

 

[ZiR RED]

A ton of research on PAP in the journal of strength and conditioning research.

I have a sneaking suspicion that p90x totally misuses and abuses it.

inishes it off with an isometric move that is absolutely killer

The fatigue aspect of this totally defeats the purpose of the neural aspects you are trying to train.

Br

 

[ZiR RED]

Here's a good read on the basic of PAP and its applications:
http://www.nsca-lift.org/HotTopic/download/Postactivation Potentiation.pdf

Br

 

[EasyEJL]

honestly, I don't know how you can get PAP without weights.

theres a few articles here on AM about it

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/content/post-activation-trick-1160/

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/content/post-activation-potential-1173/

 

[DJBeanPole]

I have a sneaking suspicion that p90x totally misuses and abuses it.

Not to say you aren't right or wrong, but I've been doing it for a week and definitely feel a difference. Especially on the leg days. They get all wiggly/jiggly and have a jello type feeling that I typically don't feel. I would have assumed that the people at Beachbody at least took the time to research this type of exercise and didn't just mash it together. Videos I've seen have shown that they at least seem to know what they are doing. I feel as though it is working for me.

honestly, I don't know how you can get PAP without weights.

Good reads. Weights are involved.

 

[ZiR RED]

Not to say you aren't right or wrong, but I've been doing it for a week and definitely feel a difference. Especially on the leg days. They get all wiggly/jiggly and have a jello type feeling that I typically don't feel. I would have assumed that the people at Beachbody at least took the time to research this type of exercise and didn't just mash it together. Videos I've seen have shown that they at least seem to know what they are doing. I feel as though it is working for me.

.

Thats a due to the isometric hold and has nothing to do with PAP. PAP is to increase performance in a high force output activity. Such as heavy back squats followed by a 40 yard dash. Do you time or measure your vertical jump after the squat to see if you are indeed improving over the course of the phase?

Yes...Bernie Madoff also convinced people he knew what he was doing. I suggest you do some of your own research before buying into a well advertised program.

I flew home from NC and happened to sit next to an orthopedic surgeon from Duke. We began chatting and quickly realized we were on the same page when it cames to programs like P90X and Insanity. I am from a poor programming stand point and him from the over use and imbalance injuries that occur. His exact words were "I will never worry about running out of work now because of P90X".

Br

 

[DJBeanPole]

Thats a due to the isometric hold and has nothing to do with PAP. PAP is to increase performance in a high force output activity. Such as heavy back squats followed by a 40 yard dash. Do you time or measure your vertical jump after the squat to see if you are indeed improving over the course of the phase?

Yes...Bernie Madoff also convinced people he knew what he was doing. I suggest you do some of your own research before buying into a well advertised program.

I flew home from NC and happened to sit next to an orthopedic surgeon from Duke. We began chatting and quickly realized we were on the same page when it cames to programs like P90X and Insanity. I am from a poor programming stand point and him from the over use and imbalance injuries that occur. His exact words were "I will never worry about running out of work now because of P90X".

Br

Ah alright. So the program I've relied on for the past 3 years has totally ****ed me up. I get it.

And no, I don't have time to measure my vertical jump, nor am I doing squats or 40 yard dashes. I'm doing this in my house, which it was intended for. I'm basing it off of how I feel, and I'm doing what works for me.

I'm actually more excited to FINISH this program so I can move into Wendler's and return to the gym. P90X worked wonders for me about 2 years ago and since I picked up X2 for nothing I gave it a shot and it has in turned given me improved results.

I can't argue with the science, or your airplane buddy. I have the conceived notion it is working for me, and I enjoy that. I will continue to run it for the duration (2 more weeks), look at myself in the mirror and compare what I see to what I saw 13 weeks ago and I know it made a difference.

And also I feel that it has made me LESS injury-prone than where I was when I started. I used to have a few aches/pains in some weird spots (sometimes bending down to get something out of the fridge a knee would pop and hurt) and all that has totally gone away.

Is it the best out there? Probably not. Is it for everyone? No. Does it work for me? Yes. Do I appreciate your input/opinion? Absolutely.

 

[ZiR RED]

honestly, I don't know how you can get PAP without weights.

theres a few articles here on AM about it

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/content/post-activation-trick-1160/

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/content/post-activation-potential-1173/

Notice also, DJBeanPole, the difference in application between these articles and what is done with P90X.

The applications of it utilize a 3+ minute rest period prior to the performance exercise (i.e.: box jumps, sprints, etc.).

There is also no mention of a "burn out" via an isometric hold. That goes entirely against the theory of PAP. PAP is based on dynamic high force output movements...not static low force output holds, which are not going to have the opposite of a potentiating effect.

Br

 

[DJBeanPole]

Notice also, DJBeanPole, the difference in application between these articles and what is done with P90X.

The applications of it utilize a 3+ minute rest period prior to the performance exercise (i.e.: box jumps, sprints, etc.).

There is also no mention of a "burn out" via an isometric hold. That goes entirely against the theory of PAP. PAP is based on dynamic high force output movements...not static low force output holds, which are not going to have the opposite of a potentiating effect.

Br

Yes I noticed that difference right away. P90X2 sets up the PAP effects into 2 "complexes" which contain 4 exercises and there is hardly any rest at all. I'm assuming this is due to time constraint as well as the whole "work out in your own house/in front of the TV" phenomenon. I see from the articles that P90X2 has strayed off from what they are talking about. I wish I could make the time for the gym and do it correctly.

The first move in the complex is the power move. I did PAP Upper today.

Power move: Renegade Rows (plank position, DB in each hand. Do a pushup. Row with right hand. Row with left. Pushup, repeat x10)
Explosive move: Plyo pushup x 6 100% explosive
Isolation (this actually is more for the core I think than anything else): Med Ball Plank x 60 secs (I hate this)
Isolation: Superman hold w/ broomstick/band x 45

Repeated 4 times.

I feel like its working.

I am sad.

 

[DJBeanPole]

I do want to thank you both though for posting some info in here. I feel better when I read up on things, and the science behind this is particularly interesting... even if I am doing it wrong :\!

 

[ZiR RED]

Ah alright. So the program I've relied on for the past 3 years has totally ****ed me up. I get it.

And no, I don't have time to measure my vertical jump, nor am I doing squats or 40 yard dashes. I'm doing this in my house, which it was intended for. I'm basing it off of how I feel, and I'm doing what works for me.

Is it the best out there? Probably not. Is it for everyone? No. Does it work for me? Yes. Do I appreciate your input/opinion? Absolutely.

I should start by slowing down..I tend to get really ... aggressive ... about these types of programs, and the misuse of techniques and programming.

Let me preface by saying that P90X is better than no exercise, or low intensity exercise, and even the msucle and fitness weight training programs etc. And if you are noticing results, then that is a good thing.

My issues with these programs are in the programming and exercise selection (and lack of balance), and the higher incidence of over use injury that are associated with them.

Current Sports Medicine Reports:
November/December 2011 - Volume 10 - Issue 6 - pp 383-389
doi: 10.1249/JSR.0b013e318237bf8a
Special Communications

[h=2]Consortium for Health and Military Performance and American College of Sports Medicine Consensus Paper on Extreme Conditioning Programs in Military Personnel[/h] [h=3]Bergeron, Michael F. PhD, FACSM[SUP]1[/SUP]; Nindl, Bradley C. PhD, FACSM[SUP]2[/SUP]; Deuster, Patricia A. PhD, MPH, FACSM[SUP]3[/SUP]; Baumgartner, Neal PhD[SUP]4[/SUP]; Kane, Shawn F. MD, FACSM[SUP]5[/SUP]; Kraemer, William J. PhD, FACSM[SUP]6[/SUP]; Sexauer, Lisa R. BS, ATC[SUP]7[/SUP]; Thompson, Walter R. PhD, FACSM[SUP]8[/SUP]; O'Connor, Francis G. MD, MPH, FACSM[SUP]9[/SUP]
[/h]

[h=4]Abstract[/h]

A potential emerging problem associated with increasingly popularized extreme conditioning programs (ECPs) has been identified by the military and civilian communities. That is, there is an apparent disproportionate musculoskeletal injury risk from these demanding programs, particularly for novice participants, resulting in lost duty time, medical treatment, and extensive rehabilitation. This is a significant and costly concern for the military with regard to effectively maintaining operational readiness of the Force. While there are certain recognized positive aspects of ECPs that address a perceived and/or actual unfulfilled conditioning need for many individuals and military units, these programs have limitations and should be considered carefully. Moreover, certain distinctive characteristics of ECPs appear to violate recognized accepted standards for safely and appropriately developing muscular fitness and are not uniformly aligned with established and accepted training doctrine. Accordingly, practical solutions to improve ECP prescription and implementation and reduce injury risk are of paramount importance.

That said, there are ways to modify these programs to yield both results and a reduced risk of over use injury by correcting and preventing muscular imbalances.

Br

 

[DJBeanPole]

I should start by slowing down..I tend to get really ... aggressive ... about these types of programs, and the misuse of techniques and programming.

Let me preface by saying that P90X is better than no exercise, or low intensity exercise, and even the msucle and fitness weight training programs etc. And if you are noticing results, then that is a good thing.

My issues with these programs are in the programming and exercise selection (and lack of balance), and the higher incidence of over use injury that are associated with them.




That said, there are ways to modify these programs to yield both results and a reduced risk of over use injury by correcting and preventing muscular imbalances.

Br

Oh man... you'd probably hate P90X2 even more then lol. They went hardcore on balance moves this time around. Doing bicep curls while standing on one foot? How's that for not having your spine in alignment when curling the heavy weights? I always shifted my weight on my feet to compensate for this. A lot of the moves had me scratching my head.

When I originally started P90X in the spring of 09' I weight around 280lbs. This program, combined with proper eating and more cardio outside the program dropped me down to 215lbs by the time August had rolled around. Needless to say, I was impressed! I tweaked my second round of P90X and stuck with just the strength routines (I was extremely comfortable with working out in my own house), and made my own cardio (running, rowing, etc). P90X2 came out around December 11 and I got it in January and started it in February. I was timid about posting about it because I think its looked down upon here, but I feel as though it has helped me build upon my results from P90X. Like I said, I'm looking forward to finishing it thought because I ready for more gym time/heavy weights.

 

[ZiR RED]

Oh man... you'd probably hate P90X2 even more then lol. They went hardcore on balance moves this time around. Doing bicep curls while standing on one foot? How's that for not having your spine in alignment when curling the heavy weights? I always shifted my weight on my feet to compensate for this. A lot of the moves had me scratching my head.

When I originally started P90X in the spring of 09' I weight around 280lbs. This program, combined with proper eating and more cardio outside the program dropped me down to 215lbs by the time August had rolled around. Needless to say, I was impressed! I tweaked my second round of P90X and stuck with just the strength routines (I was extremely comfortable with working out in my own house), and made my own cardio (running, rowing, etc). P90X2 came out around December 11 and I got it in January and started it in February. I was timid about posting about it because I think its looked down upon here, but I feel as though it has helped me build upon my results from P90X. Like I said, I'm looking forward to finishing it thought because I ready for more gym time/heavy weights.

Hrad to argue with that type of results.

I didn't mean balance in the literal sense of the word, but more in the balance of execise selection. I like the idea of adding instability into exercises.

For example, you need balance (as in equal amounts) of horizontal pushing (push ups, bench and other pressing) to horizontal pulling (supine rows, db rows, barbell rows, etc.). The same goes for vertical pushing to pulling, trunk flexion (most ab exercises) to trunk and hip extension (lower back and glutes), etc. By not balancing these - in any program - you increase the likelihood for muscular imbalances and increased risk of injury.

Br