Running sneakers

[westhockey32]

[h=1]I have the Vibram FiveFingers Men's KomodoSport and they are unreal to run and train in, but I need a real running shoe for longer distances like 5-10miles. I was wondering if anyone has used a pair of running shoes that they got their moneys worth out of? The Vibrams are great but after three mile my calfs are so over-worked I cant walk right for days! [/h]

 

[asooneyeonig]

http://www.runnersworld.com/store/search/1,7978,s6-240-417-0-0,00.html

find a store near you. bring in your old and/or current pair. be prepared to get on a treadmill to be filmed for a gait analysis if they offer it, and i hope they do. they will then fit you to the proper class of running shoe.

FYI - do not(!) go by brand. do not take what someone else uses, unless they also require the same class of shoe and train for the same distance, have the same shaped foot, same gait, same leg lengths. the wrong class of shoe can actually cause more aches and pains and not relieve any.

 

[westhockey32]

thanks !

 

[ZiR RED]

http://www.runnersworld.com/store/search/1,7978,s6-240-417-0-0,00.html

find a store near you. bring in your old and/or current pair. be prepared to get on a treadmill to be filmed for a gait analysis if they offer it, and i hope they do. they will then fit you to the proper class of running shoe.

FYI - do not(!) go by brand. do not take what someone else uses, unless they also require the same class of shoe and train for the same distance, have the same shaped foot, same gait, same leg lengths. the wrong class of shoe can actually cause more aches and pains and not relieve any.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to asooneyeonig again.

 

[compudog]

I have the Vibram FiveFingers Men's KomodoSport and they are unreal to run and train in, but I need a real running shoe for longer distances like 5-10miles. I was wondering if anyone has used a pair of running shoes that they got their moneys worth out of? The Vibrams are great but after three mile my calfs are so over-worked I cant walk right for days!

What you need is probably a shoe with medial post. That's a stiffener in the middle of the shoe, it provides support and will prevent your feet & calves from getting toasted like they do in the vibrams. It's usually visible as a piece of harder plastic in the middle of the sole, directly under the arch of your foot. People often talk about a medial post in terms of pronation, but for the long distance runner I think it's more a matter of having the support you need.

Regarding manufacturers, IMO Asics makes the best running shoe out there, New Balance is good too but more minimalist generally speaking, & Nikes are for fashion, not for running, and Adidas are generally way too soft. Just my opinion.

 

[ZiR RED]

It could also be the way you run. You shouldn't be running on your heels or your toes, but rather striking with your midfoot. I know when I first started running in vibrams everything was on my toes...which was a terrible idea. Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Nt4WgQed8

Br

Also..I'm a big fan of saucony for all my running shoes: trainers, minimalist distance, sprint spikes, etc.

 

[CopyCat]

http://www.runnersworld.com/store/search/1,7978,s6-240-417-0-0,00.html

find a store near you. bring in your old and/or current pair. be prepared to get on a treadmill to be filmed for a gait analysis if they offer it, and i hope they do. they will then fit you to the proper class of running shoe.

FYI - do not(!) go by brand. do not take what someone else uses, unless they also require the same class of shoe and train for the same distance, have the same shaped foot, same gait, same leg lengths. the wrong class of shoe can actually cause more aches and pains and not relieve any.

Perfect.

I have actually had to get new shoes twice after buying a pair and putting a few miles on and realizing they were not right for me.

 

[compudog]

It could also be the way you run. You shouldn't be running on your heels or your toes, but rather striking with your midfoot. I know when I first started running in vibrams everything was on my toes...which was a terrible idea. Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Nt4WgQed8

Br

Also..I'm a big fan of saucony for all my running shoes: trainers, minimalist distance, sprint spikes, etc.

I run in vibrams too, and I also find that I use a midfoot strike. I do have a forefoot strike when I run barefoot, as in the video, but I've never really been able to make it work for me. I thought about it a bit, and I realised that running shoes are almost universally designed to support a heel strike and a forefoot push, until now that is, with the advent of vibrams and other 'barefoot' shoes.

Which honestly, I think is a bit of a fad. I can't believe that all the athletes and engineers who designed all the running shoes to date were wrong about running until vibram showed us the light. I do run in mine, but like the OP, I can't see myself running any great distances in them. Maybe 10K but not likely ever any more than that. I think that in order to really pile up the miles I need to use a good shoe with a fair amount of support and some good cushioning.

So my question for you is, do you think there's any sound anatomical reason that running barefoot, or in 'barefoot' shoes, should be better or safer than running in modern running shoes?

 

[CopyCat]

I run in vibrams too, and I also find that I use a midfoot strike. I do have a forefoot strike when I run barefoot, as in the video, but I've never really been able to make it work for me. I thought about it a bit, and I realised that running shoes are almost universally designed to support a heel strike and a forefoot push, until now that is, with the advent of vibrams and other 'barefoot' shoes.

Which honestly, I think is a bit of a fad. I can't believe that all the athletes and engineers who designed all the running shoes to date were wrong about running until vibram showed us the light. I do run in mine, but like the OP, I can't see myself running any great distances in them. Maybe 10K but not likely ever any more than that. I think that in order to really pile up the miles I need to use a good shoe with a fair amount of support and some good cushioning.

So my question for you is, do you think there's any sound anatomical reason that running barefoot, or in 'barefoot' shoes, should be better or safer than running in modern running shoes?

The modern running shoe as we know it has only been around for about 2 decades or so. This is out of the history of running. Perhaps drastic heel to toe drop is the fad?

I'm not a hardcore advocate of barefoot style running as everyone is different and all that. However, in general I do believe it to be better. There is a lot of really good resources out there that go into it in detail. You can look up pose running technique, chi running and of course there is barefoot bible essentially Born to Run. Otherwise here is a youtube video that goes into it really well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnj-7YKZE

There are also more and more shoes being produced that are not "barefoot" but rather minimal to zero heel to toe drop, but still offer stability, support, and cushion.

 

[compudog]

The modern running shoe as we know it has only been around for about 2 decades or so. This is out of the history of running. Perhaps drastic heel to toe drop is the fad?

I'm not a hardcore advocate of barefoot style running as everyone is different and all that. However, in general I do believe it to be better. There is a lot of really good resources out there that go into it in detail. You can look up pose running technique, chi running and of course there is barefoot bible essentially Born to Run. Otherwise here is a youtube video that goes into it really well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnj-7YKZE

There are also more and more shoes being produced that are not "barefoot" but rather minimal to zero heel to toe drop, but still offer stability, support, and cushion.

No offense bro but I wasn't asking you. I have enough experience with long distance running to have my own opinion about it. I'm interested in what Zir has to say because he has expert knowledge that I don't.

 

[ZiR RED]

Copy cat brings up a lot of good points, so I wouldn't dismiss him that fast. I especially like the point about a minimal heel drop...which make up some of my favorite distance running shoes (saucony kinvara and fast twitch).

Anatomically, we evolved to run over soft/sandy terrain...this was the savanah, grass lands, and eventual desert that made up the first 60,000 years of human existence on earth. The advent of foot wear (specifically mocasins, etc.) aided us in our disbursement across the planet. Either way, it wasn't until the last 30 years that shoe with high degree of heel cusioning emerged on the scene. That is also when a rise in knee and overuse related injuries started increasing.

Personally, I think you need to match your footwear to the terrain you are running on. The softer the terrain, the less cushioning and harder a sole you need. The harder the terrain, the more cushioning and thicker sole. Running on the sand, light trails, grass etc is a great time to break out the vibrams. If you are running on pavement then a well supported minimalist running sneaker may be best.

Br

 

[compudog]

Copy cat brings up a lot of good points, so I wouldn't dismiss him that fast. I especially like the point about a minimal heel drop...which make up some of my favorite distance running shoes (saucony kinvara and fast twitch).

Anatomically, we evolved to run over soft/sandy terrain...this was the savanah, grass lands, and eventual desert that made up the first 60,000 years of human existence on earth. The advent of foot wear (specifically mocasins, etc.) aided us in our disbursement across the planet. Either way, it wasn't until the last 30 years that shoe with high degree of heel cusioning emerged on the scene. That is also when a rise in knee and overuse related injuries started increasing.



Br

Hi, yes I know that, however, it's also over the last 40 years that running has exploded as a fitness activity. Yes people ran for fitness more than 40 years ago, but only athletes, "recreational" runners did not exist. I believe it was Adidas that started the ball rolling on that, by making 'sneakers' popular foot wear for the masses in the 1960s

Basically I think it's modern shoes that have enabled running to explode as a pass time. Which is also why there's been a massive increase in injuries, & not just because there's a lot more people doing it, but because the profile of the running population has gone from a small group of athletes to a very large and diverse group, including a lot of untrained and not very fit people.

Here are a couple references for copycat's sake, frankly I don't think he's up to speed on this subject, which may be due to age. I'm 45, & I've been a recreational runner since I was 14. I've owned a lot of different shoes from every conceivable manufacturer. I've never claimed to be an 'elite' runner, nevertheless, I've racked up a lot of miles over the years.

"The first New York City Marathon was held in 1970, organized by New York Road Runners Club presidents Fred Lebow and Vincent Chiappetta,[SUP][6][/SUP] with 127 competitors"

The 2008 New York City Marathon was held on Sunday, November 2. A field of 37,899 runners participated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Marathon#History

I'm not disagreeing with you about minimal heel drop etc. I'm just questioning the wisdom of barefoot running. I do agree that minimalist shoes work better, esp. for long distance running. Too much cushion is just as bad as not enough when the routes get over 10 km.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope this is useful to the OP. I believe that running can be a lifetime pursuit, but a lifetime of injury-free running would be a miracle.

 

[compudog]

The modern running shoe as we know it has only been around for about 2 decades or so. This is out of the history of running. Perhaps drastic heel to toe drop is the fad?

I'm not a hardcore advocate of barefoot style running as everyone is different and all that. However, in general I do believe it to be better. There is a lot of really good resources out there that go into it in detail. You can look up pose running technique, chi running and of course there is barefoot bible essentially Born to Run. Otherwise here is a youtube video that goes into it really well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnj-7YKZE

There are also more and more shoes being produced that are not "barefoot" but rather minimal to zero heel to toe drop, but still offer stability, support, and cushion.

The "drastic" heel to toe drop as you put it, is actually more cushioning in the heel. IMO manufacturers have done that over the last 2 decades or so in order to accommodate their largest market segment, which would be runners at the novice, beginner, or casual level, whichever term you prefer. These runners make up the largest segment of the running population, and I think they typically run 3 km or less, perhaps up to 5 km. This is what I've observed from hitting the trails & sidewalks every weekend for 30 years.

Having more cushion in the heel makes running short distances more comfortable for people with poor running form. Once a runner has better form, the footwear isn't so important for short distances, which is when the vibrams etc make a nice change. For long distances though they don't work well. Evolution has given us the ability to run a relatively long way, but runs over 1 hour are a serious athletic pursuit IMO, well beyond the limits of what nature intended. Like any serious athletic endeavour, it requires specialist gear.

Given the state of manufacturing, i.e. catering mostly to the beginner/short distance runner, I wanted to make it clear to the OP what he needs to look for in the market. I do appreciate your contribution to the conversation.

 

[ZiR RED]

Well...the importance of fitness was not emphasized 40 years ago, nor were other sports popular in the post-highschool crowd. Now, you could argue that the sneaker companies adapted to the market by making shoes with cushioned heels...or, you could argue that the shoes shaped the running technique of the market to encourage heel strike. I have seen both.

As for humans adaptations to running...we adapted to run. In fact, many anthropologists argue that this is how humans first hunted...by running after their prey until it wore out/over heated and then taking it down. Humans are amazingly adapted to run long distances, and we are even better adapted to deal with dissipating heat...especially compared to other predators. A good book that describes this is phenomenon is by Dr. Bernd Heinrich "Why we run".

Br

 

[Flaw]

You gotta figure out your foot type. Check out this link http://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/product/shoe-dog.jsp?cm_re=hp-_-left_1-_-shoe_dog

I've always been a big fan of Brooks brand personally.

 

[compudog]

Well...the importance of fitness was not emphasized 40 years ago, nor were other sports popular in the post-highschool crowd. Now, you could argue that the sneaker companies adapted to the market by making shoes with cushioned heels...or, you could argue that the shoes shaped the running technique of the market to encourage heel strike. I have seen both.

As for humans adaptations to running...we adapted to run. In fact, many anthropologists argue that this is how humans first hunted...by running after their prey until it wore out/over heated and then taking it down. Humans are amazingly adapted to run long distances, and we are even better adapted to deal with dissipating heat...especially compared to other predators. A good book that describes this is phenomenon is by Dr. Bernd Heinrich "Why we run".

Br

Hi ZiR, thanks for the book recommendation. You'er probably right about the market determining the running style, in that it's a bit of both, IMO it's really impossible to separate the threads of what causes what at this scale.

 

[Go Away]

Post a video of you running. In high school I took a fast twitch training class and found out I had been runnin wrong my entire adolescence. Once I fixed how the ball and heel hit and pushed I gained speed, lessened my joint pain and it made the arches on my feet feel much better. All those incorporated in longer, comfortable runs.