Squats/Deadlifts and overall size

[Manwhore]

In "Big Beyond Belief" They say any exercise which requires your body to move through space,is better at stimulating your nervous system and therefore better for strength/size. They say since your body is in more danger when squating than it is when legpressing,the squat is better for muscle growth. Would anyone like to comment on this? I was going to write this when i read the Magic Squating post but i forgot. More examples: Pullups better than curls or machine pulldowns, and pushups better than bench

 

[Dwight Schrute]

It has to do more with incorpation of more muscle groups than anything. Also its not really the exercise but the time under tension that will stimulate growth. Strenght/size training are two completely different type of training but if you focus more on myofibrillar hypertrophy you will get the benefit of both (increase fiber thickness equates to increased strenght). However you will not get the same strength gains as you would get from a program based on nueral stimulation (heavy, explosive low reps).

In any event bot those exercises are great and should be included in any resistance training program along as form is followed correctly and you are capable of performing them without joint discomfort.

 

[Manwhore]

Strenght/size training are two completely different type of training

really? I always figured that taking each set to failure would do all that can be done to stimulate the nervous system and recruit all muscle fibers in the muscle trained. By stimulating the nervous system,ones strength would increase and by recruiting all muscle fibers,ones size would increase. Both having a possitive effect on one another. Wouldn't a set of 12reps taken to failure stimulate the nervous system just as much,if not more,than a 3rep set taken to failure causing an even or better increase in strength? I could be wrong,but i always thought BBers say heavy weights increase strength more,because most can't take a higher rep set to failure. The intensity of a 3 rep set comes on very fast. It's basically there from rep 1 but intensity from 12 rep set comes much later in the set and the BBers who don't train to muscle failure,aren't going to benefit(strength wise)from higher rep sets. After all,It's all about intensity,isn't it?

 

[lancelot]

After all,It's all about intensity,isn't it?

no, it's not. there is a difference between strength, hypertrophy, and endurance training. Any AT will tell you this. think competitive weightlifter vs bodybuilder vs runner. you will utilize different reps, sets, intensity, time and exercises. what are your goals?

 

[Manwhore]

no, it's not. there is a difference between strength, hypertrophy, and endurance training. Any AT will tell you this. think competitive weightlifter vs bodybuilder vs runner. you will utilize different reps, sets, intensity, time and exercises. what are your goals?

Strength,Size,while lowering BF....

 

[Dwight Schrute]

really? I always figured that taking each set to failure would do all that can be done to stimulate the nervous system and recruit all muscle fibers in the muscle trained. By stimulating the nervous system,ones strength would increase and by recruiting all muscle fibers,ones size would increase. Both having a possitive effect on one another. Wouldn't a set of 12reps taken to failure stimulate the nervous system just as much,if not more,than a 3rep set taken to failure causing an even or better increase in strength? I could be wrong,but i always thought BBers say heavy weights increase strength more,because most can't take a higher rep set to failure. The intensity of a 3 rep set comes on very fast. It's basically there from rep 1 but intensity from 12 rep set comes much later in the set and the BBers who don't train to muscle failure,aren't going to benefit(strength wise)from higher rep sets. After all,It's all about intensity,isn't it?

No. As lancelot said there are different stimuli that trigger different reactions.

Heavy weight does increase strenght more because it stimulates the CNS but its done in such short bursts that the time under tension is not significant to stimualte a growth repsonse. THen you have myofibrillar hyopertrophy which is increase muscle fiber thickness (which will give size and strenght increase) and is usually obtained with moderate weight and moderate reps. Then you have sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is in increase in muscle glyocgen and nutrient storage which will give you that round and pumped look and that is usually obtained by lighter reps and increased reps. So basically there are many type of stimulation depending on what weight and rep range you use.

That is an extrmemely basic and general explanation.

 

[Manwhore]

Thanks but i have one more question. Is it better to take a set to failure for size or strength and if not what does going to failure do when using moderate weight for 12-15 reps? or going to failure using 3-5 reps? I'm assuming most PLers don't take sets to failure. Why wouldn't they.... unless they just weren't looking for any size. Know what i mean?

 

[lancelot]

Strength,Size,while lowering BF....

look, i think you're looking more for size than strength so i'm going to give you a general guideline to follow for hypertrophy:

1) stick with 6-10 reps except for warmups

2) Compound exercises are core

3) Non-compound, specific exercises are fine as well

4) 6-10 sets for every 3-4 different excercises for large muscle groups. 3-6 sets for every 2-3 different excercises for smaller muscle groups.

5) do not do the same lifts every time. switch up the routine often about every 6-8weeks or when hypertrophy has stalled.

6) do not overtrain. get enough rest! you should know how many days you can lift in a week with and without androgens.

7) light cardio <20min, <60% max, on w/o days as needed.

8) longer cardio on off-days if trying to aggresively trying to strip BF.

9) you may want to think about strickly a bulk phase and a cutting phase to reach your goals.

10) diet, you know what to do by now.

 

[lancelot]

to failure do when using1) moderate weight for 12-15 reps? or going to failure using 2) 3-5 reps?

1) hypertrophy/endurance

2) strength

 

[Manwhore]

4) 6-10 sets for every 3-4 different excercises for large muscle groups. 3-6 sets for every 2-3 different excercises for smaller muscle groups.
6) do not overtrain.

so that's between 18-40 sets for EVERY big muscle group and 6-18 sets for EVERY small muscle group? .... and you say don't overtrain If i'm going all out on each set(like i will be)i sure will overtrain... Thanks for the workout but i just wanted to see some opinions. I'm good,thanks

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Strength,Size,while lowering BF....

That is an extremely hard thing to do consistently if you've been trianing for some time. People who just begin can easily accomplish these things but if you have been lifting for over 6 months, unless you have your diet down to the exact calorie, it won't happen and you will only get frustrated.

As for those sets, no way should you do that amount. I don't tihnk that is what he meant but if he did he is very wrong.

Inidividual numbers and sets vary for the individual and specific goal. I can't say "do 6 sets of this" and guarantee it is goinn to work.

 

[DieTrying]

Bobo- what is your opinion of going to failure? Obviously it depends a lot the type of training being done, but i have some friends that go to failure on every single set of every single workout. I've heard and read so many opinions that my head spins.

 

[lifted]

Bobo- what is your opinion of going to failure? Obviously it depends a lot the type of training being done, but i have some friends that go to failure on every single set of every single workout. I've heard and read so many opinions that my head spins.

I feel the same way man. HIT was/is great for me, but it's time to switch it up. I've just started NOT going to failure with a new 5x5 routine and things are going great for the time being....

But I would also like to hear more thoughts on this as well... :blink:

 

[Manwhore]

That is an extremely hard thing to do consistently if you've been trianing for some time. People who just begin can easily accomplish these things but if you have been lifting for over 6 months, unless you have your diet down to the exact calorie, it won't happen and you will only get frustrated.

As for those sets, no way should you do that amount. I don't tihnk that is what he meant but if he did he is very wrong.

Inidividual numbers and sets vary for the individual and specific goal. I can't say "do 6 sets of this" and guarantee it is goinn to work.

i train for either size or lowering body fat. I know it's hard to do both at the same time,but if you knew a way,i was all ears I've made the best strength gains of my life on a high intensity program(heavy duty) and NO i'm not one of IAs pupils I am not against other programs but i don't have much time for training,so i like to get in,hit it hard,and get out.... I don't think failure is nessesary,as a matter of fact,i know it's not,but it's the best way i can judge my workouts. One always needs time off of a high intesity workout,because they can be very hard on the body after a while. Even if you take more days off in between,i think it's best to change it up a bit. I know this has been said before but can be overlooked very easily... Taking a set to possitive muscle failure is easier said than done. Sometimes i just don't have the motivation to get there. If your able to take every set of every workout to failure,than you have got some bad ass motivation.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo- what is your opinion of going to failure? Obviously it depends a lot the type of training being done, but i have some friends that go to failure on every single set of every single workout. I've heard and read so many opinions that my head spins.

It depends on the goal. Here are a few eample:

Bulking- Yes you can but not necessary.
Cutting- Nope
PCT- Nope

There are so many variables so saying to everyone, going to failure is a must, is foolish.

The more people I train and more I read the less I see a need for it.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

i train for either size or lowering body fat. I know it's hard to do both at the same time,but if you knew a way,i was all ears .

Of course I know a way, I wouldn't be much of a trainer if I didn't. Its ALL about diet.

 

[Beelzebub]

Oh Bobo, you tease

 

[jjjd]

about training to failure for muscle STRENGTH

Very few elite strength trainers train to failure with any frequency. look at the strongest men in the world. rarely, if ever, do they train to failure

i think for STRENGTH training, failure is often suboptimal

for hypertrophy, i think occasional failure work can be beneficial

 

[Manwhore]

It would be nice if i didn't go to failure. My workouts would be cake and i'd love doin them.... But again back to them being cake. I just don't feel like i worked out even 15min after i complete a marathon workout.

 

[lifted]

It would be nice if i didn't go to failure. My workouts would be cake and i'd love doin them.... But again back to them being cake. I just don't feel like i worked out even 15min after i complete a marathon workout.

I know what you mean. But maybe that;s the problem. When I don't go to failure, I recover SO much easier/faster. When I do go to failure, I feel like **** for the next few hours at least. I'm really liking not going to failure now as opposed to my old routine.....damn, I must've said that 45 times now in this thread. :lol:

 

[Manwhore]

Yeah that makes sense. If i don't go to failure i can train more frequently. Well,that might work for me

 

[jjjd]

the point is that the efficacy of a workout (in terms of eliciting gains) is not based on one's subjective appreciation of soreness, how hard one worked out, or whether one went to failure or not

you do NOT need to "blast your muscles to failure" and in many cases, this is suboptimal

if you get away from subjective evaluation based on how thrashed you are ex post workout, and instead look to make gains in weights lifted (or hypertrophy) or whatever your goal(s) is/are, you will be better served

 

[MaDmaN]

Dam Bobo,your like a walking enclopedia,Good stuff, your knowledge of Kinesiology is outstanding.....It's kinda like EF-Hutton (all you ole timers know this) When EF-Hutton talks people listen...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

LOL....Its funny how some hold that against you though.

I'm a trainer, I should know these things

 

[Scottyo]

IMO unless your doing a HIT style routine, failure is going to be more of a detriment than anything. Especially if you are performing upper/lower splits or hitting muscles more then once a week.
Just because you are not going to failure does not mean that you are really working any easier. You still bust your balls and go hard and heavy, but when you know your not going to get the next rep, you stop.
I think one of the biggest problems, especially with keeping "one in the whole" or stopping just short, is that for many unexperienced trainees, they don't really know what just short of failure is. If you've trained HIT, or have a solid amount of experience behind you, you know what real failure is. Stopping just short of that, once adjusted, is not to difficult.

 

[lifted]

IMO unless your doing a HIT style routine, failure is going to be more of a detriment than anything. Especially if you are performing upper/lower splits or hitting muscles more then once a week.
Just because you are not going to failure does not mean that you are really working any easier. You still bust your balls and go hard and heavy, but when you know your not going to get the next rep, you stop.
I think one of the biggest problems, especially with keeping "one in the whole" or stopping just short, is that for many unexperienced trainees, they don't really know what just short of failure is. If you've trained HIT, or have a solid amount of experience behind you, you know what real failure is. Stopping just short of that, once adjusted, is not to difficult.

Yes, it definatley took me ahwile to gauge a one rep shy set...

 

[lancelot]

so that's between 18-40 sets for EVERY big muscle group and 6-18 sets for EVERY small muscle group? .... and you say don't overtrain good,thanks

i think you misunderstood me. i tried to make it easy so that no multiplication is involved or i would have done it for you. just to clarify, do not multiply cuz those are the total sets for each large or small muscle groups. anyhow, good luck.

 

[iron addict]

It is not all that difficult to drop bodyfat while adding size and strength, but it is a dietary balancing act. When the timing and macro-nutrient profiles are correct you are there. Fat loss/muscle accumulation is not an all or nothing thing. Your body can and will burn BF while synthesizing muscle tissue, although in most cases one or the other will be occuring during various times of the day. The net will still be more muscle and less Bf if done correctly.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

At higher bf%'s it easy (tha majority of people), at low bf% it is not. It has much more to do with food choices and smart calories than macro nutrient profiles and timing (although timing is somewhat important in certain situations)

In most cases your not burning fat while building muscle, your decreasing overal bf% while increasing strictly LBM.

 

[iron addict]

Please define "smart" calories, that would be proper food choices IMO, not a separate catagory. And macro-nutrientnt profiles are DAMN important. I don't care how "smart" the food choices are, if your macro-nutrients profiles are off, your screwed. Never seen anyone hit single digits while holding onto all their muscle eating a shitload of carbs and fats and little protein. Or are you argueing for the sake of argueing :trout:

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

For the sake of arguing? I tihnk that would be you as we call all plainly see with numerous threads you are participating in.

Smart calories and food choices can mean two different things. Would you consider a tablspoon of FLax a food choice? IMO its an additive of smart calories compared 8oz of salmon which is a food choice.

THey are DAMN imporant? Yeah I can tell someone to consume a low carb diet and give them all the right profiles for the day but if they eat sausage and bacon like "some" suggest then sure as hell won't get to single digits without being extremely catabolic due to glyocgen depletion.

I could get people respond to FDA recommendations with smarter food choices better than someone who eats eggs and sausage and follows a low carb diet and actually think consuming no carbs for a day is good for you.

And yes there are many competitors that have consumed only 1g/kg of protein (low in this sport) and have won. We're talking reality here IA, so please stop with your standard strawmen arguements. You do know what Mentzer recommened right?


Your the one who thinks protein is digested in the stomach.

 

[iron addict]

Yes, I know what Mentzer reccomended and I argued with him in person about it--he was WRONG.

Please by all means put your trainees on 1g per KG and see how well they do....

And we both know where digestion occurs--but we also both know where it starts.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

For someone who doesn't know where protein and amino acid absortion occurs I bet that arguement was very funny.

I don't put trainee's on a set number. It constantly changes. I don't just say "here is your totals for the day, have fun".

No, you don't know where the absortion of amino acids occurs and FYI digestion officially starts in the mouth. I suggest you stick arguiing with jjjd about training methods because you continually butcher basic nutrition facts that an 18 byr old kid learns his freshman year.


Keep recommending those 75g Whey shakes. :thumbsup:

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Never seen anyone hit single digits while holding onto all their muscle eating a shitload of carbs and fats and little protein. Or are you argueing for the sake of argueing :trout:

You argued with one. A world class one at that.

 

[iron addict]

Hey BUTTBO,

You continually bringing up the protein absorbtion thing and telling me what I know about it and putting words in my mouth and twisting everything said is getting REAL fucking old. Calling me strawman and continually belittiling every trainer to advance your less than one month old personal training carrer is pretty fucking pitiful. I came over to this thread and aggreed that fat could be lost while muscle accrued and you had to start **** over me agreeing with you. If this is how you treat your board sponsors so you can look better you can keep the fucking board and sponsorship.

I should have listed to Dogg when he gave me advice about you.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

If thats your attitude you know where the door is. Your the one who started in on this one. Twisting everything around? I suggest you go read your own threads. jjjd, VanillaGorialla, Debaser ALL have arguements with you ebcause its YOU who are the one who twists **** around.

YOU are the on who came into this one. I keep brining up the protein absortion because its the funniest thing I've ever heard come out of a "trainers" mouth.

Bottom line IA is when it comes to some basic nutrition facts, you don't know what the **** your talking about.

BUTTBO, that is a good one coming from a 40yr old. Didn't Animal make that one up? Funny you both show the same temperment.

You preach your word like everything is law and when someone challenges you its "I have 50-75 clients and I know what works". I'm glad I don't have that many people nbecause I wouldn't be much good. I could care less how long you've trianed people. ITs the same old **** coming from same old type of people. You preach 3 books from hardgainer.com like its the law and when someone challenges you when it comes to the science of ANYTHING, you GET BURIED! You are a dime a dozen and I can find the samel bullshit at my local Golds.

I don't need to make my training look better, you do that for me and my clients can speak of my services. I'm not worried one bit.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I came over to this thread and aggreed that fat could be lost while muscle accrued and you had to start **** over me agreeing with you. If this is how you treat your board sponsors so you can look better you can keep the fucking board and sponsorship.

I siad it was difficult to do with someone who has been training. I never said it was easy and already stated it was food choices.

You came in saying it was easy and gave some half assed explanation.

You have a problem with me treating you as a board sponsor? Sorry, the other board sponsors don't insult me when I disagree with them. THen you go cry to DC when I criticize a small part of his cycle recommendations then bring him over and all he has to add is insult upon insult. Then you post a thread at Animals in which he does nothing but degrade us and the board membership and you agree with everything. So spare me the "IA is a victim" arguement. You buried yourself.