Big Legs

[RedneckDB]

Right I am going to vent my frustrations here and see what is recommended.

I am fed up of my legs not growing enough - Calorie requirements are in check all clean first off, current body weight is at approx 150-155.

I follow the macrobolic nutrition diet split of 45%c 35%p and 20% f I am eating approx 2800-3000 cals a day at the moment all the essentials eggs, whole milk, brown rice, red meat, chicken, salmon, green veg, oats etc etc My maintenence is around 2200-2400 so I am over that at the moment.

Current best lifts - Squat 2x 120kg [Parrallell] and also 70kgx20 parrallel [my bodyweight on the bar essentially]

My leg routine I follow typically looks like this -

Barbell Squats

Using Max OT warmup of 1x12, 1x10, 1x6, 1x3, 1x1 typically weights used go Bar/Bar/60kg/80kg/100kg and start my first work set below at 110kg at the moment.

Work sets- 3x4-6, 1x20

Romanian Deadlifts 3x4-6

DB Lunges 3x4-6

Calf Raises Standing 4x25[High reps seems to be the only thing making them grow?]

Calf Raises Seated 4x25


Now I have been thinking of maybe backing off my arms day all together in favour of another leg day a week/cycle to prioritise - is this a good idea? I find it takes me at least 4-5days to be ready to do legs again and also have to have a gap of around 4 days after I deadlift before I squat to avoid lower back issues.

My current split as follows -

Chest
Back
Shoulders
HIIT Sprint Intervals/Abs Weighted
Arms
Legs

It typically takes between 8-10 days before starting this cycle again for me which I find is about right for recovery for me.


The annoying thing is I am training til I can barely walk and using good form/heaviest weight I can manage. My deadlift is now at 140kg which is just over twice my bodyweight so is way ahead now of my squat and its pissing me off!!!!!!

Last legs day I did 110kg x 4, x5, x4 for the 3 sets which is an improvement but still frustrating as hell!


Please help me out guys, I am eating right/in an organised way that I have done for a long time I am training hard - what should I add/change?

Dan

 

[R1balla]

you dont eat enough for them to grow

 

[heman10]

How long are your HIIT sessions? are you doing any other form of cardio during the week?

Sometimes less is more on stubborn body parts. I would try cycling squats, 4 weeks squats, then 4 weeks leg press (as staple to your leg workout): or 1 week squats next week leg press ( rotate). I would even try taking a week off after every 4 leg weeks, to give your legs a chance to really grow.

At 5-10 155, you've got to be pretty lean- I would be eating a cheat meal on every leg day.

 

[RedneckDB]

you dont eat enough for them to grow

Ok Point noted - how many more calories should I add, I am trying to this sensibly because I want to minimize fat gain so at the moment around 400 over maintenance, if I add another 400 would that be too much in your opinion?

 

[RedneckDB]

How long are your HIIT sessions? are you doing any other form of cardio during the week?

Sometimes less is more on stubborn body parts. I would try cycling squats, 4 weeks squats, then 4 weeks leg press (as staple to your leg workout): or 1 week squats next week leg press ( rotate). I would even try taking a week off after every 4 leg weeks, to give your legs a chance to really grow.

At 5-10 155, you've got to be pretty lean- I would be eating a cheat meal on every leg day.

HIIT is just 20mins in total and goes as follows 2mins jog/warmup then 30second sprint [treadmill at full setting of 16 on this one] then 1 min jog at 8 so keep repeating that until 20mins is up.

I was at around 168/170 beginning of last year but too much of it was fat so I spent the time getting my diet sorted and cut down to about 145/147 which is obviously very light but my strength went up and I learned how to eat properly [supps were just a pre w/o creatine and protein] so hasn't bothered my because I haven't got weaker and now I am gradually putting the weight on in what I would say is a good way.

Ive been looking at a lot of the Brooks Kubik dinosaur training type stuff and might try adding some bottom position squats at some point from the rack.

I will try adding another 400cals a day with food. A meal will probably be something like 100g Brown Rice, 200g Broccoli and then a chicken breast or salmon as an extra meal.

 

[kanakafarian]

I wish I had your problem! I have to back off on my legs otherwise they get too big. I do 4-5 working sets on ass squats, leg presses, Roman deads, and I'm done.

May I suggest trying to take your squats lower? I know you'll hear people say this and that about knee pain and how so and so and blah blah blah... take it to the ground with ass squats and maybe widen up your stance if you're narrow. I go about 1.5 of shoulder width. And as far as training frequency, you'll have to find what works for you and that bodypart. I really have to ease back on legs but I have to work chest every 3-4 days.

Everyone has bodyparts that grows easily and bodyparts that don't, it all differs so it's just a matter of finding what works for you.

 

[RedneckDB]

I wish I had your problem! I have to back off on my legs otherwise they get too big. I do 4-5 working sets on ass squats, leg presses, Roman deads, and I'm done.

May I suggest trying to take your squats lower? I know you'll hear people say this and that about knee pain and how so and so and blah blah blah... take it to the ground with ass squats and maybe widen up your stance if you're narrow. I go about 1.5 of shoulder width. And as far as training frequency, you'll have to find what works for you and that bodypart. I really have to ease back on legs but I have to work chest every 3-4 days.

Everyone has bodyparts that grows easily and bodyparts that don't, it all differs so it's just a matter of finding what works for you.

Its not a good problem lol!

I appreciate your advice though My stance is slightly outside shoulder width, any narrower and I find it awkward. My 3 sets of 4-6 I go to parallel then the set of 20 at the end typically now around my body weight on the bar is where I make sure to be going below parallel for all reps although some do tend to be at parallel still. As for knee pain, squats don't seem to do anything to me for that but had to change my lunge form slightly because I was getting a piercing sharp pain in my knee cap from lunging a couple inches to far but that is hopefully sorted now. Also changed shoes to converse for lifting and some specific running shoes for sprints which has helped too.

 

[RedneckDB]

Just had this weeks leg day so will post up the numbers (all sets with good form)

Nothing amazing by this boards standards but could not have got any more than this today if you paid me so next week will hopefully get more reps/weight.

Barbell Squats Warmup
Barx10, x10
60kg x 6
80kg x2
100kg x 1

Working sets all reps parallel 110kg x 4, 110kg x 4, 110kg x 4

Then got told by the skinniest chav in the place that my chest was **** and I was lazy. which made me get 70kg x 20 all below parallel on my last set of squats- definitely need to up the weight there next week.

Romanian Deadlifts
110kg x 6
120kg x 4 PR
120kg x 4 PR

DB Lunges

30kg DB's x 6,
34kg DB's x 6
40kg Db's x 3 [Should probably have gone with the 38's but felt like pushing myself a bit more]

Calf Raises Standing
75kg x 25
82.5kg x 25
82.5kg x 21 [5 second pause then last 4 reps to finish set]
82.5kg x 25

Calf Raises Seated

20kg x 25
25kg x 25
20kg x 25
20kg x 25

And now struggling to walk in a good way so at least I know I've hit my legs right!

 

[ZiR RED]

Theres a couple of options I would suggest

First, try increasing your reps. You may need to work more in the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy range for a while - 9-12 reps, 2 min rest between sets.

Next, I suggest training legs twice a week. Focus one day on your squats, the second day on rumanian deadlifts and glutes.

Not being able to walk the next day is not always indicative of progress or overload, but rather over doing it and comprimising recovery. A little soreness is good, painful soreness means you did too much.

Up your calories.

Br

 

[RedneckDB]

Theres a couple of options I would suggest

First, try increasing your reps. You may need to work more in the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy range for a while - 9-12 reps, 2 min rest between sets.

Next, I suggest training legs twice a week. Focus one day on your squats, the second day on rumanian deadlifts and glutes.

Not being able to walk the next day is not always indicative of progress or overload, but rather over doing it and comprimising recovery. A little soreness is good, painful soreness means you did too much.

Up your calories.

Br

Thanks for the input. Am I wrong in thinking I should be training for strength on my squats with lower rep ranges then? Are you saying I should literally have one day dedicated purely to squats or do other leg work this day also?
Will up calories...if I am training hard enough and keeping it fairly clean I shouldn't put on much fat anyhow.

Thanks

 

[ZiR RED]

Well, you get different adaptations at each rep range. Training real heavy with long rest is more apt to induce contractile hypertrophy and neural gains. It may be that you are have temporarily achieved those gains. Training as I described will induce a higher GH release and sarcoplasmic gains. So it may be time to work towards those for 4-6 weeks, then switch back to lower reps longer rest.

One day your MAIN focus should be squats. So, this means 4 working sets of squats. Then ancillary exercises such as a split squat, pitcher squat, stationary lunge, etc.

The next leg day should be focused more on the posterior kinetic chain (hams and glutes): so rumanian deadlifts, travelling lunges, hip pull through or barbell glute thrusts, lying swiss ball curls or leg curls - or: standard deadlifts, travelling lunges, single leg rumanian deadlifts, etc.

One day focused on squats and a little more quad dominant
The next day focused on deadlift and more glute/ham dominant

Br

 

[RedneckDB]

Well, you get different adaptations at each rep range. Training real heavy with long rest is more apt to induce contractile hypertrophy and neural gains. It may be that you are have temporarily achieved those gains. Training as I described will induce a higher GH release and sarcoplasmic gains. So it may be time to work towards those for 4-6 weeks, then switch back to lower reps longer rest.

One day your MAIN focus should be squats. So, this means 4 working sets of squats. Then ancillary exercises such as a split squat, pitcher squat, stationary lunge, etc.

The next leg day should be focused more on the posterior kinetic chain (hams and glutes): so rumanian deadlifts, travelling lunges, hip pull through or barbell glute thrusts, lying swiss ball curls or leg curls - or: standard deadlifts, travelling lunges, single leg rumanian deadlifts, etc.

One day focused on squats and a little more quad dominant
The next day focused on deadlift and more glute/ham dominant

Br

Ok Thanks, will give that a go probably at 8-10 reps for a month before switching back.

I also deadlift on back day so will keep romanian deadlifts on this 2nd leg day.

What I ate yesterday for anyone whos interested -

Breakfast 10am

5 Whole Eggs Scrambled with 50ml Whole Milk
2 Pieces Whole Wheat Bread Toasted
1 Grapefruit
1 Banana

Workout

Postworkout Shake 1pm

25g Whey ON
100g Oats
400ml Whole Milk
25g Raisons

Meal 3pm

100g Brown Rice
2 Chicken Breasts
200g Broccoli

Meal 5:30pm

100g Brown Rice
2 Salmon Fillets
100g Sprouts
100g Peas

Shake 8pm

25g Whey ON
400ml Whole Milk
100g Oats
25g Raisons

Pre Bed Meal

250g Cottage Cheese

 

[RedneckDB]

Any comments on the above food would be helpful - anything maybe I could change around or add?

 

[DaJaP]

Along with the whole eat more thing, add more carbs pre w/o. And i agree with Red, trying doing higher reps, maybe 15->12->10->8. Maybe add some leg extensions in there. If you going with a wide stance on ur squats, ur def pulling in more glut/ham on those.

 

[RedneckDB]

Along with the whole eat more thing, add more carbs pre w/o. And i agree with Red, trying doing higher reps, maybe 15->12->10->8. Maybe add some leg extensions in there. If you going with a wide stance on ur squats, ur def pulling in more glut/ham on those.

Thanks, yeah that day I really should have had a shake with my breakfast [same as post workout shake] for the oats and carbs in it for more energy etc so ok in future will stick to that.

Leg Extensions I used to feel but since getting stronger on my squat I am not far off repping out on the whole weight stack on that machine so don't bother with it anymore....I might be wrong but I've gone with the whole compound moves/big moves are going to be better overall theory here.

 

[DaJaP]

Thanks, yeah that day I really should have had a shake with my breakfast [same as post workout shake] for the oats and carbs in it for more energy etc so ok in future will stick to that.

Leg Extensions I used to feel but since getting stronger on my squat I am not far off repping out on the whole weight stack on that machine so don't bother with it anymore....I might be wrong but I've gone with the whole compound moves/big moves are going to be better overall theory here.

Pin freeweights to the stack. Do it directly after a compound exercise that focuses mainly on ur quads. And lets not start the ridiculous debate of "compound vs iso" lol

 

[ZiR RED]

If you do do leg extensions, do them one leg at a time or alternating legs (such as you would dumbbell curls). Focus on keeping your feet facing in the same direction, not one pointing out and the other in.

Br

 

[RedneckDB]

Pin freeweights to the stack. Do it directly after a compound exercise that focuses mainly on ur quads. And lets not start the ridiculous debate of "compound vs iso" lol

I wasn't trying to start that debate. Just trying to be sensible. Too build size and strength the best exercises I have used have been deadlifts, squats, barbell rows, weighted pullups+chinups+dips, barbell bench flat/incline, clean and press etc etc so thats what has given me the most strength gains so far, whenever I did predominantly isolation moves itd just not do much for me. If I do an arms day it is Narrow Grip Bench Press, Straight Bar Curls, Straight Bar Skullcrushers, weighted exercises dips/pullups etc rather than kick backs or small movements if that makes sense. But like I said not an argument I want to start.

What works for one won't for another but is fine for their mates dog etc etc

 

[DaJaP]

I wasn't trying to start that debate. Just trying to be sensible. Too build size and strength the best exercises I have used have been deadlifts, squats, barbell rows, weighted pullups+chinups+dips, barbell bench flat/incline, clean and press etc etc so thats what has given me the most strength gains so far, whenever I did predominantly isolation moves itd just not do much for me. If I do an arms day it is Narrow Grip Bench Press, Straight Bar Curls, Straight Bar Skullcrushers, weighted exercises dips/pullups etc rather than kick backs or small movements if that makes sense. But like I said not an argument I want to start.

What works for one won't for another but is fine for their mates dog etc etc

Sorry man, didn't mean it in an agressive sense, more of a joking manner, lol. No doubt heavy compound lifts will add strength and size. I'm the same with my lifts, i just add a few iso movements for the last couple of exercises

 

[drudixon]

Why not try Bill Starr 5x5 for 8 weeks? I've added 1.5" to my legs in 9 weeks with this program and added 30 lbs to my squat rep weight. For me personally, 5 day splits are useless. I have to do at least 2x a week to grow.

 

[RedneckDB]

Fair enough. Tried a John Grimek squat routine on Saturday that was
1x20, 1x15,1x12,1x10,1x8,1x6, Started at 60kg going up 5kg per set to 85kg which isnt much in the grand scheme of things but was squatting below parallel and keeping good form on the reps and the fatigue was definitely challenging.

Also considering trying the Brooks Kubik 5/4/3/2/1 Strength rep range for legs and alternating between these each leg workout to get the best of both worlds.

 

[jlinteris]

If you want big legs, train the **** out of them. I know everyone has their own theories about how to train them but I had legs that wouldnt respond and my workout partner and myself started to hammer out long, brutal 2-3 hour leg workouts They probably had more volume that what people would do in a month. I am 6'2, natural and my legs always stay lean. Biggest I got them cold was 30" after training them hard for 2 straight years like this. My workout partners legs got crazy. He competitively bodybuilds now and his wheels stand out big time. When you think the burn is too much, or you cannot do another rep, your mind fails on legs before your body does. "This is tough.... better rack it!" Be aggresive!

Here is an example of our leg workout.
Giant set!
Squats x 15 (generally 275-315 pounds)
Leg press x 15 (generally 630-720 pounds)
Quad extentions x 15 (180 pounds)
These were so bad that after finishing extentions we would basically roll onto the floor in pain.

Do squats, leg press and quad extentions back to back to back non-stop and get your reps. Dont puss out. It hurt, it sucks and you might puke. Then after your set, wait 5 minutes and do it again, then once more.

Front squats
3 high rep sets to failure.

Next- walking barbell lunges
135 pounds x 60 feet x 3 walks.

Dumbbell SLDL
145's x20,18,16

Hip abductors/adductors (machines)
Use each machine as a superset for reps 15,12,9... or something like that.
Yes these are hte machines that women use. Dont laugh until you try it. These are challenging and hit a weak area that you normally cannot target without it.

Afterwards, apply some long stretches on your legs and maybe use a stationary bike to flush them. A lot of people use the excuse 'overtraining' whenever something seems hard. Unless you push your body to the limit you wont have any idea what over training is for yourself. I have been so sore after training legs like this that I was sore for 5 days. My body still repaired itself, my other body parts continued to improve and the next legs day I was stronger. Did I overtrain- Nope!

Nurtrition wise is easy. Eat, eat more and when you are full then eat a little more. Loads of carbs before and loads after a workout like this.

I think the 4x4 or 5x5 style is not appropriate for a hard gainer on legs. I normally squat lower rep right now, I get stronger but my legs are only 27" because of the style different. High reps, crazy intensity= big legs.
Sorry about the rant. lol

 

[RedneckDB]

If you want big legs, train the **** out of them. I know everyone has their own theories about how to train them but I had legs that wouldnt respond and my workout partner and myself started to hammer out long, brutal 2-3 hour leg workouts They probably had more volume that what people would do in a month. I am 6'2, natural and my legs always stay lean. Biggest I got them cold was 30" after training them hard for 2 straight years like this. My workout partners legs got crazy. He competitively bodybuilds now and his wheels stand out big time. When you think the burn is too much, or you cannot do another rep, your mind fails on legs before your body does. "This is tough.... better rack it!" Be aggresive!

Here is an example of our leg workout.
Giant set!
Squats x 15 (generally 275-315 pounds)
Leg press x 15 (generally 630-720 pounds)
Quad extentions x 15 (180 pounds)
These were so bad that after finishing extentions we would basically roll onto the floor in pain.

Do squats, leg press and quad extentions back to back to back non-stop and get your reps. Dont puss out. It hurt, it sucks and you might puke. Then after your set, wait 5 minutes and do it again, then once more.

Front squats
3 high rep sets to failure.

Next- walking barbell lunges
135 pounds x 60 feet x 3 walks.

Dumbbell SLDL
145's x20,18,16

Hip abductors/adductors (machines)
Use each machine as a superset for reps 15,12,9... or something like that.
Yes these are hte machines that women use. Dont laugh until you try it. These are challenging and hit a weak area that you normally cannot target without it.

Afterwards, apply some long stretches on your legs and maybe use a stationary bike to flush them. A lot of people use the excuse 'overtraining' whenever something seems hard. Unless you push your body to the limit you wont have any idea what over training is for yourself. I have been so sore after training legs like this that I was sore for 5 days. My body still repaired itself, my other body parts continued to improve and the next legs day I was stronger. Did I overtrain- Nope!

Nurtrition wise is easy. Eat, eat more and when you are full then eat a little more. Loads of carbs before and loads after a workout like this.

I think the 4x4 or 5x5 style is not appropriate for a hard gainer on legs. I normally squat lower rep right now, I get stronger but my legs are only 27" because of the style different. High reps, crazy intensity= big legs.
Sorry about the rant. lol

Nice rant ! Is good to hear. I am starting to think that the higher rep stuff is what I need to do for legs because the 1x20/15/12/10/8/6 thing killed me at the weekend whereas todays heavier 5/4/3/2/1 hasnt done **** all in comparison so either weights weren't heavy enough or I need to change it up.

Gonna go with the higher rep stuff for a while and see how that goes.

 

[MM11]

Medium rep range ass to ground squats made a huge difference in leg development compared to parrallel. Also try to end with a widow maker set (20 reps atg). This has worked well for me.

 

[Dizmal]

Try this workout, then EAT and REST.

Legs - 14 sets:
Lying leg curls - have someone gently push down on your lower back while you do these to keep your hips down - you won't be able to go as heavy, but it will isolate them better..

2 warm up sets then 1 set of 12, go heavier, 1 set of 10, heavier, 1 set of 8, rest about 90 seconds between these sets… then do a drop set like this..go back to weight you did for 12, do it 10 x, drop a plate and do 10 more reps, drop a plate and do 10 reps, then go back up (heavier) one plate and do 25 partials out of the bottom..just start the weight up and come back down…little reps…your hams will be on fire…the weight will literally only be moving 2-3 inches, but they will be on fire from the constant tension..they will be so pumped you won't believe it. 4 total work sets.

Squats - Do 3 warmup sets until you hit a weight where 8 reps is a struggle. Stay with the same weight and do 8 reps. 3 total work sets.

Barbell stiff legs (bend your knees at bottom) - use 25 lb plates to get better stretch - 2 warm ups to get stretched out then find a good weight that you can use for 3 sets of 10. On every rep come and flex your glutes and hams. 3 total work sets

Leg press - you will love leg presses after all this ham work…feet just a little wider than shoulder width, and a little low on the platform..start light with 1 plate on each side…when you are going down, you should still keep feeling it in hams and inner thighs..then keep going up 1-2 plates a time on each side for sets of 10 until you can't get 10 anymore. Once you get to what you feel is your first working set I want you to take 3 seconds going down during the eccentric phase, then drive the weight up…on EVERY REP throughout the remainder of your leg presses…I want you to do 3 hard sets of this. Go up in weight as much as you like, just be sure to get the full 3 second descent on each and every rep. 3 total work sets of 8-12 reps.

Once you feel like your quads are pumped, I want you to stretch your quads for 30 seconds each between each set..stretch them hard…


Smith machine squat - you will be plenty warm - this won't take much weight - name of the game here is constant tension…So - 3 sets of 10 done like this…go down ROCK BOTTOM, and only come up half way, then back down rock bottom then all the way up - that is one rep. So really they 1 1/2's….they will be full of blood and on fire. 3 total work sets

Leg extension - I want you to raise your butt of the seat when you are doing these..it will allow you to squeeze your tear drop harder….1 x 12, and hold each contraction for 3 seconds. Use a heavy weight. Squeeze the crap out of them…1 total work set


It's not mine, but I borrowed it from a good guy. It's pretty brutal once you get to the 1.5 reps in the smith machine. The leg extensions my ass and knees are a trembling. Do this 1 week followed by a lower rep, higher weight excercise tehn next week and alternate. You'll have wheels the size of bigfoot :tu:

 

[RedneckDB]

Medium rep range ass to ground squats made a huge difference in leg development compared to parrallel. Also try to end with a widow maker set (20 reps atg). This has worked well for me.

Going to give the 20/15/12/10/8/6 squatting a go atg! Might have to drop the weight a bit to start but who cares whatever it takes to get it done!

 

[jlinteris]

Going to give the 20/15/12/10/8/6 squatting a go atg! Might have to drop the weight a bit to start but who cares whatever it takes to get it done!

What was recommended was the put the 20 rep set at the end, not start. Go 15/12/10/8/6/20. Very, very challenging!

 

[RedneckDB]

What was recommended was the put the 20 rep set at the end, not start. Go 15/12/10/8/6/20. Very, very challenging!

Ok, thats what I've been doing though for ages with the 3 sets of 6 then 20 reps last set, definitely been challenging.

 

[Gavin9]

eat eat eat.

 

[RedneckDB]

eat eat eat.

On it!