Is it true most programs are overkill for naturals?

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    Is it true most programs are overkill for naturals?


    Is it true that 5 day split programs with 2 bodyparts per workout, 4 exercises of 4 sets of 10 reps per bodypart are major overkill for a natural trainee?

    they say so in this one book i once read "Brawn"

    I lost the book so may have to buy it again

    because when i'm really honest with myself, i've been spinning my wheels for years now. not much progress at all, despite training hard.

    But my nutrition is crappy too. Which I am trying to fix but I'm still hugely confused on protein intake with all the broscience out there.

    I'm 6' 180-185lbs, pretty lean, best bodypart quads probably

    440lbs deadlift x 1, 286lbs x 11 squat is my best and bench is pretty awful with sets of 10 or something with 180 something lbs

    i used to do weightlifting for a few years, here's a pic of that
    img843.imageshack.us/img843/7066/imgoji.jpg
    but i quit about a year ago and changed to "bodybuilding"

    here's a "flattering pic" of me without a shirt

    img841.imageshack.us/img841/4291/1ycwatgr3swlb2k1ssa6ky3.jpg

    So basically I'm getting worried since I turn 23 in februari, will I ever be able to get remotely big naturally? Because steroids etc are not an option.

    (i couldn't post the pics properly as you are required to have 50 posts for that)

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    also a pic of legs
    img824.imageshack.us/img824/395/1nzpvzaegfrfkiee3jofp9k.jpg

    one leg is more outward and more bent and getting different light, the legs are not assymetrical in case you were wondering
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    The best growth I've ever see is switching from 4-5 days splits, and using Mark Rippetoe's starting strength... 3 day program based around compound movements

    Then I got my nutrition down.

    And a few years later I started the 3 day version of DC Training....been running it ever since.

    I don't get caught up in the once a week training per body part splits.
    Even Layne Norton, one of the best Natural bodybuilders, has said his physique took off training body parts 2 or 3 times per week.

    FYI - keep in mind you are not blasting your biceps 3 times per week, with 16 sets each time...
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    I like doing a simple push/pull/legs routine, switched up every so often to a 4 day chest/back/leg/shoulder type routine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dexterfan View Post
    Is it true that 5 day split programs with 2 bodyparts per workout, 4 exercises of 4 sets of 10 reps per bodypart are major overkill for a natural trainee?
    NOT AT ALL! If you're EATING ENOUGH, then there's no reasons why you can't train as such.
    In saying that, your rep range is going to depend on the body-part being trained and your goals, since 10 reps is really a 'beginner' rep range and used more for acclimatizing the body to a new regime or during the start of hypertrophy programmes.

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    It all comes down to your level of fitness and conditioning, whether you are on drugs or not.

    As you become more experienced with lifting, and are able to do more work, you can handle greater workloads. If you go from 3 sets of 10 to 20 sets in one session, then you are going to be sore and not recover. If you go from 3 sets to 4 sets to 5 sets, etc. then you will have built a level of conditioning that allows for high volume workouts.

    Now, there is some research out there that shows the best gains in size and strength for intermediate lifters is training each muscle once every 3-5 days. I'll see if i can find the abstract.

    Finally, the typical 4 and 5 day splits that you read about in bodybuilding magazines - the ones that are wrote just a little different with pictures of a different probodybuilder and the words "blast" - each month are trash. No balance in the workouts, no attention paid to stabilizers, fixators, and ancillary muscles. Just trash.

    Br
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    No, it's just that most natural athletes don't know what they're doing and so never achieve their goals. Overtraining is way overemphasized - the body is incredibly robust if provided with proper nutrition and rest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    It all comes down to your level of fitness and conditioning, whether you are on drugs or not.

    As you become more experienced with lifting, and are able to do more work, you can handle greater workloads. If you go from 3 sets of 10 to 20 sets in one session, then you are going to be sore and not recover. If you go from 3 sets to 4 sets to 5 sets, etc. then you will have built a level of conditioning that allows for high volume workouts.

    Now, there is some research out there that shows the best gains in size and strength for intermediate lifters is training each muscle once every 3-5 days. I'll see if i can find the abstract.

    Finally, the typical 4 and 5 day splits that you read about in bodybuilding magazines - the ones that are wrote just a little different with pictures of a different probodybuilder and the words "blast" - each month are trash. No balance in the workouts, no attention paid to stabilizers, fixators, and ancillary muscles. Just trash.

    Br
    i split it into

    chest + biceps
    *decline barbell bench press 4*6-10reps
    *(shallow) incline dumbell press 4*6-10 reps
    *dips 4*6-10reps
    *dumbell flies 3*12-15 reps

    *alternate dumbell bicep curls 4*8-12reps
    *preacher curls with dumbell 4*8-12 reps
    *pinwheel or hammer curls with dumbells 4*8-12 reps

    legs

    back squats (parallel depth, no lockout at top, no pauze, non stop pumping, slow excentric phase) 4*6-10 reps

    walking lunges 3 sets across the gym back and forth (about 25 meters per set approximately)

    hack squats (pretty deep, no lockout) 4*6-10 reps

    leg extentions 4*10-12 reps

    leg curls 4*10-12 reps

    standing calf raise machine 4*15-20 reps

    seated calf raise machine 4*15-20 reps

    back+abs
    4*8-10reps deadlift
    4*6-10 reps bent over barbell row
    4*6-10 reps dumbell row
    4*6-10 reps behind neck wide grip pull down
    4*6-10 reps seated cable row, wide grip for more upper back less lats

    4 sets of leg raises to failure
    4 sets of crunches to failure
    4 sets of decline ab bench to failure

    shoulders + triceps
    seated military press (leaning against incline bench) 4*6-10 reps
    seated dumbell press (leaning against incline bench) 4*6-10 reps
    behind the neck smith machine wide grip press (leaning against incline bench) 4*6-10 reps
    side laterals machine 4*10-12 reps
    rear delt machine 4*10-12 reps

    4*8-12 skull crushers
    4*8-12 single arm standing behind the head tricep extentions with dumbell
    4*8-12 tricep cable extentions


    this is it in a nutshell, i will continue this over and over and take 2 days off a week
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    Well, you're exercise selection is causing impingement in my shoulder just reading it.

    Also, your lower body training is too quad dominant.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Well, you're exercise selection is causing impingement in my shoulder just reading it.

    Br
    can you elaborate?
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    youre going to start microtearing your cuff if you put yourself in acute angles such as behind the neck presses
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    Quote Originally Posted by freefall365 View Post
    can you elaborate?


    As mentioned by drewsky, the limb placement created by doing excessively wide grip presses and presses behind the neck impinges (pinches/rubs between bones) the tendons of the rotator cuff and biceps, as well as the bursae of the shoulder. This will result in tendinitis (inflamed tendons, ie. that burning sensation you feel in your anterior or rear delts on chest and shoulder day, or while doing bicep curls) and eventually tendon tears.

    Further, the exercise selection is heavily biased towards movements that internally rotate the humerus (upper arm bone) and scapula protraction (bring the shoulders forward). This, in turn, results in a less stable shoulder joint and increases the chances of impingement (and all the problems that arise from it) even when doing exercises correctly.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    As mentioned by drewsky, the limb placement created by doing excessively wide grip presses and presses behind the neck impinges (pinches/rubs between bones) the tendons of the rotator cuff and biceps, as well as the bursae of the shoulder. This will result in tendinitis (inflamed tendons, ie. that burning sensation you feel in your anterior or rear delts on chest and shoulder day, or while doing bicep curls) and eventually tendon tears.

    Further, the exercise selection is heavily biased towards movements that internally rotate the humerus (upper arm bone) and scapula protraction (bring the shoulders forward). This, in turn, results in a less stable shoulder joint and increases the chances of impingement (and all the problems that arise from it) even when doing exercises correctly.

    Br
    what are you suggesting
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    Stop the behind the neck and anterior delt movements. Perform only 1-2 pressing movements per chest/shoulder workout. Perform at least one horizontal pulling movement for each chest press and one vertical pulling movement for each over the head press. Perform rear delt and mid trap retraction work for each chest fly or lateral raise. Make sure you work your external shoulder rotators and scapula fixators.

    Drop the leg extensions and hack squats. Reduce the "abdominal work". Add in rumanian dead lifts, glute-hip barbell bridges (hip thrusts), supine bridges and prone bridges.

    Br
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    I never understood why people do behind the neck presses...it just feels horrible and you can tell by the movement that it isnt a good thing. Same with the pull up bars that are angled downwards. Not healthy for the shoulders at all. I train upper body twice a week and same with lower body and its the best program I have ever done. Its very easy to tell if your recovered or not. Listen to your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Stop the behind the neck and anterior delt movements. Perform only 1-2 pressing movements per chest/shoulder workout. Perform at least one horizontal pulling movement for each chest press and one vertical pulling movement for each over the head press. Perform rear delt and mid trap retraction work for each chest fly or lateral raise. Make sure you work your external shoulder rotators and scapula fixators.

    Drop the leg extensions and hack squats. Reduce the "abdominal work". Add in rumanian dead lifts, glute-hip barbell bridges (hip thrusts), supine bridges and prone bridges.

    Br
    i made a mistake in writing out my split. i wrote "anterior delt machine" where i was supposed to write "rear delt machine"
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    Quote Originally Posted by dexterfan View Post
    Is it true that 5 day split programs with 2 bodyparts per workout, 4 exercises of 4 sets of 10 reps per bodypart are major overkill for a natural trainee?

    they say so in this one book i once read "Brawn"

    I lost the book so may have to buy it again

    because when i'm really honest with myself, i've been spinning my wheels for years now. not much progress at all, despite training hard.

    But my nutrition is crappy too. Which I am trying to fix but I'm still hugely confused on protein intake with all the broscience out there.

    I'm 6' 180-185lbs, pretty lean, best bodypart quads probably

    440lbs deadlift x 1, 286lbs x 11 squat is my best and bench is pretty awful with sets of 10 or something with 180 something lbs

    i used to do weightlifting for a few years, here's a pic of that
    img843.imageshack.us/img843/7066/imgoji.jpg
    but i quit about a year ago and changed to "bodybuilding"

    here's a "flattering pic" of me without a shirt

    img841.imageshack.us/img841/4291/1ycwatgr3swlb2k1ssa6ky3.jpg

    So basically I'm getting worried since I turn 23 in februari, will I ever be able to get remotely big naturally? Because steroids etc are not an option.

    (i couldn't post the pics properly as you are required to have 50 posts for that)
    Have you tried those same 4/5 day splits and letting them cycle round in more than a week....example rather than heavy lifting monday-friday/saturday etc have you tried doing the same split maybe 2 days on 1 day off or even every other day?

    Example being
    Chest
    Back
    Day off
    Day off
    Shoulders
    HIIT Sprints 20mins + Abs
    Arms
    Legs
    Day off
    Start again...

    My squats/deadlifts have been going up loads lately just letting the routine cycle round the split order you have but not being overly bothered to do it in a week, sometimes it takes 10-12 days but I feel properly recovered and can lift more which for me is prety important doing low rep sets.

    Also we all have work commitments that sometimes mean you can't definitely lift every single day - you don't ***** out of it but it's just learning to let yourself rest as well I guess.
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    Most of the 5+ day a week splits were invented since the advent of steroids. It really depends on the person. I've been able to do 6 days a week and got good results.

    heavy push/light pull/heavy legs/light push/heavy pull/light legs/off
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    everyones different but for most people that would not be overkill at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pleonastic View Post
    everyones different but for most people that would not be overkill at all.
    You are right..everybody is different...and the posted is correct that MOST ( 80%) of hardcore trainers over train ...as is he...look at his body weight ..and the fact that he has been lifting for years...but at 6' 185 ...I bet he doesn't even look as though he lifts ( at least to the average untrained eye) ..his strength level is also low ...
    There fore OP /// you correct in your assumption that you have been MASSIVELY overtraining ..
    cut back to 2 exercises 2-3 sets each ..and I am willing to bet that you will make more progress in the next six weeks then you have in the past 3 years.
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