Too much Bull$hit talk by Supplement Mfgs

[papapumpsd]

I'm on a lunch break right now, so I thought I'd go off on a tangent regarding how tired I am of supplement companies spamming the planet with ludicrous product claims and lack of supporting data. It's gotten to the point that I really don't buy too many products anymore (once in a while I do, if I've legitimzed the claim(s)).

So supplement manufacturers, listen up. Here's some direct-from-the-consumer feedback. If anyone else is tired of this marketing "slap in the face" by manufacturers, speak up please.

So I logged onto this board a few minutes ago and immediately an advertisement appears(along with a product photo). On the bottle of this so-called life-changing product (all of them are is seems they claim), it just touts "skin splitting pumps", along with a laundry list of other unwordly effects of this miracle product. What, my skin will LITERALLY split from the pumps or something? Get real. All "muscle pumping" products regurgitate the same bull$hit. If I want a pump, I'll blow $.02 cents/serving on Arginine Ethyl Ester DiHCL powder. If I really want a pump, I'll throw in creatine ethyl ester powder (even cheaper).

Aside from over-priced yet mundane product results from these hyped up products that have usually one primary ingredient (see above), I'm sick and tired of the pathetic claims and marketing terminology used in product descriptions.

PRIME EXAMPLE: MuscleTech

I NEED you all to read this product description for MuscleTech's Anabolic Halo product.

"In just seconds, an intense, glacial-like chill overwhelms the back of your throat. The subzero, arctic outbreak has begun! In virtually no time, it feels like your entire physiological profile is “freezing” as the mega-dose of more than 75 cutting-edge and musclebuilding ingredients in the ANABOLIC HALO™ formula courses through your veins. The cryo-anabolic post-workout growth-inducing event invades your muscles and engages an anabolic uprising within them … leaving them with no choice but to grow!

With your first dose, the most hardcore anabolic supplement on the planet sends a powerful rush of musclebuilding ingredients coursing through your veins!

Brace yourself, for the extreme musclebuilding potency of the world’s most hardcore anabolic/non-androgenic musclebuilding supplement – ANABOLIC HALO. The cryogenically enhanced formula forces you into a total body muscle metamorphosis … a transitional growth phase that has you witness your frame explode with new mass. A never-before-seen arsenal of anabolic and muscle-morphing compounds floods your muscular pathway, switching on the currents that control your growth, and telling your muscles to take on massive, granite-thick shape! It synergizes a shockingly powerful anabolic environment that radiates from your muscles, setting the stage for chilling, eerie muscle gains the likes of which no bodybuilder has ever imagined.


What is this thing you’re feeling? It’s the power of -320 degrees Fahrenheit. Three pharmaceutically inspired, cryogenic technologies never before seen within the realm of bodybuilding supplementation synchronize the muscle manipulating powers of ANABOLIC HALO. Featuring three SUB-ZERO™ Technologies – Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology, Lyophilization and Anabolic Crystallographic Technology – ANABOLIC HALO unleashes the exclusive power of cryo-anabolic molecules.

The first, Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology, uses mechanically measured blasts of impossibly low-temperature liquid nitrogen, as cold as -320 degrees Fahrenheit, to thermomolecularly enhance a precise portion of one of the most anabolic compounds on the planet.

The second pharmaceutically inspired technology, called Lyophilization, actually changes the physical state of a proprietary dose of an anti-catabolic complex in ANABOLIC HALO. Lyophilization exploits the micro-molecular process of sublimation which is so advanced, it actually forces molecules within a structure to skip matter states and go directly from a solid to a gas.

The third, cryogenic process, called Anabolic Crystallographic Technology, discharges a 180-minute treatment of liquid nitrogen at -150 degrees Fahrenheit on a critical anabolic compound. The resulting molecular structure is unlike anything ever witnessed in bodybuilding!

Make no mistake, ANABOLIC HALO™ is designed to throw muscles into the most hardcore, anabolic state they’ve ever been in. The ultra-potent blend sets off a sequence of six growth-inducing elements guaranteed to make your muscles balloon to monstrous proportions … like you’ve never seen before! And the formula is relentless, continuing to work until a larger, more muscular being stares back at you in the mirror!"

source: MuscleTech - ANABOLIC HALO - The World's Cyro-Anabolic Post-Workout Growth-Inducing Event

WTF is this INSANE BULL$HIT?! This should honestly be illegal to publish such volumes of nonsensicle and misleading content. Do they have research to support these fu**ing ridiculous claims? Hell no. It's loaded to the brim with B.S.!

And MuscleTech isn't alone with this nonsense hype. I'm sure you've all read other product descriptions. LOADED with false hope.

MANUFACTURERES: Here's a novel idea: How about doing human trials on REGULAR weight lifters, not DARREN CHARLES juice-head freaks? You know, blow $25,000 on a test group of lifters and a placebo group. That silly testing that pharmaceutical companies do for their drugs. Know what I mean? Put up some data to support your dumba$$ claims. I don't buy your hyped up poser products because they either A) don't work at all, or B) work very little (too little to justify the cost, aka, A WASTE).


Some of you might claim, "but there are logs of REAL people using products). Yep, sure are. And when they post logs of Product A while on Products B, C, D, E, F....n, who gives a rat's a$$? Where's the placebo group? Oh ya, there isn't one. The user that claims, "I gained 5 lbs in week 1!!! OMFG, this is AMAZING!", didn't do bodyfat analysis (pre/post), is now consuming increased amounts of water since (s)he think (s)he is on some mega anabolic product and needs to guzzle gallons/day, etc, etc, etc. VERY, VERY little science put into a "log".

But wait, I saw "before & after" photos. This person really added mass. Great, I add mass too when I start pounding weight gainers and water. Also, there's the outside of the body, and then, OMG, there's an INSIDE! How's that liver doing champ? How are your lipids? Blood pressure? Cognition? Simple things you can track if a simple product trial is done, but what "logs" don't (or very, very rarely) track correctly.

And when you manufacturers get on review boards and use fake profile names like, "John12341", I know it's you so cut the $hit. Stop falsely inflating the reviews with your B.S. When I read overly optimistic reviews on products (like, 10 5-star ratings) with reviews claiming AMAZING, UNGODLY results, you think I believe that? Even Superdrol had haters...a lot, and it gave incredible results (many which weren't appreciated by users, aka, negative side effects).

Conclusion: MANUFACTURERS, GET SOME REAL SUPPORTIVE DATA FROM "REGULAR" FU**ING LIFERS WHO AREN'T ON JUICE/GEAR AND NOT ON ANY OTHER SUPPLEMENTS. STOP USING PRO's TO HYPE YOUR CRAP. STOP FALIFYING PRODUCT REVIEWS. STOP READING THE LATEST ARTICLES IN "JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION" THEN MAKING SOME JERK-OFF PRODUCT BASED ON SOME QUESTIONABLE RESULTS from Dr. Krishnamurthy at UCLA, WITHOUT REAL, NON-MISLEADING HUMAN PRODUCT TRIAL DATA.

For now you can eat a big one cause I make my own supps. using bulk powders, tried-and-true primary ingredients (CEE, AEE, etc) all at a fraction of the cost of your J.U.N.K.

You're ruining what could be a very useful industry.

OUT

 

[TexasLifter89]

and you forget the before adn after pictures are inaccurate. Their before pictures are always bodybuilders on their usual bulk, and the after picture on the usual cut. not just a skinny average lifter before and then his TRUE results from the product afterwards. this isnt with all products though, just the prime overhyped companies.
I died laughing when read teh anabolic halo label, i simply shook it and threw it around so the " atmostpheric dispursion" would mess it up

 

[papapumpsd]

and you forget the before adn after pictures are inaccurate. Their before pictures are always bodybuilders on their usual bulk, and the after picture on the usual cut. not just a skinny average lifter before and then his TRUE results from the product afterwards. this isnt with all products though, just the prime overhyped companies.
I died laughing when read teh anabolic halo label, i simply shook it and threw it around so the " atmostpheric dispursion" would mess it up

LMFAO, YES!!!!

I read that USEAGE WARNING too and it invoked both intense anger and tears of laughter. It really messed my emotions up. :aargh: :toofunny: :aargh: :toofunny: :frustrate

I can only pray for a life of SARS, AIDS, Bird Flu, and Genital Warts to the writers of that crap.

 

[TexasLifter89]

yeah i hate when i try to talk people into buying good stuff, but yet they go for the muscle tech or something not as good. they will say" oh i love this stuff its working real good for me" aka (muscle tech, Bsn).Because of GNC they believe every supplement shop employee gets paid off commission. i work at vitamin shoppe. im like dude grab some isopure or something with an amino acid profile, not just some over priced straight whey protein

 

[papapumpsd]

yeah i hate when i try to talk people into buying good stuff, but yet they go for the muscle tech or something not as good. they will say" oh i love this stuff its working real good for me" aka (muscle tech, Bsn).Because of GNC they believe every supplement shop employee gets paid off commission. i work at vitamin shoppe. im like dude grab some isopure or something with an amino acid profile, not just some over priced straight whey protein

If I read nonsense in a product's description, the ENTIRE product line gets 100% discounted by me immediately. I'm not sold on words, but data. I research what's in them....then will either dig out the primary (active) ingredient and buy it myself or not pursue it at all.


MuscleTech....JFC.....and these wanna-be kids buy this crap. Saddens me, really.

 

[love2liftw8]

i worked at gnc for a week and then quit cause they wanted me to push muscle tech.... what a joke i was giving people online sites to get stuff

 

[empreality]

The funny part is all of these "name-brand" supplements always are made to sound like some legal steroids... "AAARGGGGGHHH POWERRR.....ARGHHH SEX!!!! ARRRRGHHHH WEIGHT LIFTINGS!!1 ARGHH!H!H!"

And then you realize that you can get stuff online from some off-brand products for like 75% the price and usually tend to be stronger and more proven to be effective...

 

[Iron Lungz]

Business is business. Don't count on it changing, period. Supplement companies have/need to draw attention to their product so you don't go buy someone else's product that is basically the same ingredients.
I do, however, dislike the "Before and After" pictures. Hell, I received an email from a company on this very board showing a guy that was bloated one month, then "Changed" after using their product. What a fukking joke that is.

Bottom line, supplement companies have to bait/lure you to but their product... It's business.

 

[SilentBob187]

It's good to get that out of your system from time to time. While I agree that doing clinical studies would be a great idea for supplement companies to partake in, I don't know if it would work out. Many smaller companies can't afford to just throw countless thousands into studies of new supplements that they've created.

I agree with you regarding the research as well. Citing sources and including optimal amounts of ingredients per serving would better suit the end user, but would it really be cost effective to the manufacturer. Sure X grams of product Z may show beneficial results for muscle growth, but they can only afford to put .1X in each serving to still make a profit off of the product.

Is this lower dose still beneficial for muscle growth? Maybe.

I don't like playing devil's advocate but sometimes you really need to understand both sides of a situation. While I agree with you that some companies have less than stellar practices in terms of their marketing, I can't make a generalization about all companies.

It all comes down to the old adage, "Buyer Beware."

 

[papapumpsd]

Business is business. Don't count on it changing, period. Supplement companies have/need to draw attention to their product so you don't go buy someone else's product that is basically the same ingredients.
I do, however, dislike the "Before and After" pictures. Hell, I received an email from a company on this very board showing a guy that was bloated one month, then "Changed" after using their product. What a fukking joke that is.

Bottom line, supplement companies have to bait/lure you to but their product... It's business.

Let's talk product differentiation: DATA! Someone, please, SOMEONE provide real data that their product does "this", or "that". That's how you capture customers, and KEEP them. Not by hyping some junk that gets you some sales, but ends up pissin' people off cause it didn't work worth crap.

Anyone (and nearly every mfg) can make outlandish claims...Yippee...congrats, you have a big, adjective-laden vocabulary. If someone provides me a data-driven product/product line, I'm all ears! I really am.

And oursourcing a firm to do pseudo-clinical trials can't be that much. I'm not talking about phase 1, 2, & 3 stuff here, just an independent study that's not accompanied by marketing fluff (ie, lies).

So many companies do this today. As an example, tire manufacturers will do a "stopping distance" test. They get X number of models of cars/trucks/SUVs and, using the SAME environmental conditions and autos, they slap their tires on and competitive tires. Then they reach X mph and jack on the brakes. Hmmm, how many feet did the Toyota Land Cruiser slide with Toyo tires? How many feet with Perelli? How many feet with Goodyear? Etc, etc. Now, let's look at tire wear...what happened to tire A, B, C, etc. This is simple independent analysis using varying "users" (vehicles) and data.

Have you ever seen a tire ad claiming, "STOP FASTER THAN EVER EXPERIENCED BY MANKIND! That's the stopping power you get with Douchbag brand tires!! -320 degree cryotechnology, along with a paragraph of other wanna-be high-tech marketing blabber will stop you so FREAKISHLY fast that your innards will rip through your chest cavity and squish against the airbag!". Ya, right.

Know what's funny as hell? I was just involved with developing a global corporate tagline for our firm. It took MONTHS to come up with a single phrase. Why? LEGAL issues. We had originally developed something like, "The World Leader in Healthcare Security". That sheat wouldn't fly in the EU, so it couldn't be used globally. And yet, we have these azzclown manufacturers spewing loads of hype, nonstop. It's totally unregulated and insulting to consumers. It really is.


Thanks for your input man!

 

[atjnutrition2]

I love this thread. I'm curious as to what you think about companies sponsoring people to post on sites like these.

 

[SilentBob187]

I love this thread. I'm curious as to what you think about companies sponsoring people to post on sites like these.

I think it's a great idea. In fact, when are you accepting applications for beta testers of your chocolate salty balls?

Seriously though, companies sponsoring people on sites like this are a great way to create interest in a product as well as having 'regular' people trying these products and giving real world feedback. I can't speak for papapump though, that's just my opinion on the matter.

 

[Nightwanderer]

I will say the anabolic halo write up is hilarious. If I want some cryogenic bullsh!t I'd buy a steer and make it poop outside in a snow storm and make popsicles...

 

[papapumpsd]

I love this thread. I'm curious as to what you think about companies sponsoring people to post on sites like these.

I don't care at all as long as it's made public that these people are "compensated". Also, with that known, people should be CAUTIOUS (as one individual said, "BUYER BEWARE") that there are people on boards that are hyping products because they're compensated by the manufacturers. Kind of like having that dirtball Martha Stewart say your pots 'N pans are kickazz when she really doesn't use them but is paid to say that. Same sh-it, different pile.

Love that word, "sponsor". Now, what might that REALLY mean? Hmmm.

There's a LOT of psychology floating around on these boards. I like boards/forums, don't get me wrong, but understand that when people get FREE (OMFG WHAT A DREAM!) products to try and write logs on, they just might be tempted to say overly "nice" things about products to maybe get chosen again. That's just an example. Hey, not saying it happens (*rolls eyes*) just giving a heads-up.

Also, will the company 'reps' please stop saying (or mellow it a bit) your products are the best any and everytime someone posts asking about them? You're just diluting your credibility. How many countless times I've read, for example, "Guys, I'm considering getting Torrey Lab's Ground Meal Worm Growth Matrix powder to add mass. Ever hear anything about it?". Then the Torray Labs guy immediately chimes in, "It works awesome. I've recomped like crazy with it. In fact, it stacks awesome with our Sh*t-On-A-Stic and our Anabolic Corn Flakes. Try them all!". ugh

 

[papapumpsd]

I think it's a great idea. In fact, when are you accepting applications for beta testers of your chocolate salty balls?

Seriously though, companies sponsoring people on sites like this are a great way to create interest in a product as well as having 'regular' people trying these products and giving real world feedback. I can't speak for papapump though, that's just my opinion on the matter.

Silent Bob, I do side with you, on part of that. Yes, user feedback is good, but it has to be quality feedback. As I've mentioned above in my original tangent, most people are giving product feedback that's darn near worthless cause they're stacking 10 different products or they're changing their workout and lifestyles so much for the new "product" that it's not even comparable. There needs to be a control here. I'm not trying to be overly R&D driven, but seriously, I know that people make big changes in diet, water intake, workout intensity & frequency, sleep, etc. when they try new products. SURELY they're going to see changes, but were they a result of the PRODUCT? Who the HELL knows.

This whole thread is designed to instill a sense of CAUTION to consumers who are buying off of marketing fluff and "logs" that may not be implying what they are reading.

This thread is to also tell those POS manufacturers to get real products and stop the insulting marketing. You know who you are (if you make crappy products and hype them, that's YOU, data-less wanna-be steroid alternative companies).

 

[SilentBob187]

I just had a thought. What about possibly starting a thread that is just a series of sources and their abstracts which include the results and amts for many commonly used ingredients in supplements.

Something along the lines of

Creatine Monohydrate:
Smith, Kent et al. "Study of creatine in regular athletes." Journal of Health yadda yadda

Abstract: 5grams of creatine a day for 4 weeks yielded this and that.

As opposed to keeping this a buyer beware atmosphere why not try to create a resource for people to go to, make it a Sticky perhaps, regarding many common supplemets.

 

[Dancebot 2000]

The unfortunate reality of the situation is the companies that make the rediculous claims are the ones with the highest sales. Marketing will always out shine effectiveness and science. It's easy to think otherwise if you hang out on forums because it means you are at least somewhat educated, but 90% of the customer base isn't.

 

[atjnutrition2]

Even better yet would be to have someone (not a company rep) interpret these studies.

 

[Cellardude]

Even better yet would be to have someone (not a company rep) interpret these studies.

unfortunately most people who have knowledge are often drafted by companies. Although their credibility in knowledge is still at hand, their words are sort of biased.

E.G Patrick Arnold, the guy rips apart other products and claims that they are harmful, but low and behold, he owns one himself. The motive would be that he's trying to reduce other companies sales and credibility while increasing his own. Now if he werent affiliated with any company and just speaking his mind that would be different.

 

[Cellardude]

The unfortunate reality of the situation is the companies that make the rediculous claims are the ones with the highest sales. Marketing will always out shine effectiveness and science. It's easy to think otherwise if you hang out on forums because it means you are at least somewhat educated, but 90% of the customer base isn't.

so true, if you tell the people what they want to hear, they'll try it.
I could probably convince an average joe on the street to buy **** in a bottle if I were smart about it and told him that protein is actually passed into the **** making it a high source in protein. He would probably stock up on a few bottles. :hammer:

 

[TheNoid]

I just had a thought. What about possibly starting a thread that is just a series of sources and their abstracts which include the results and amts for many commonly used ingredients in supplements.

Something along the lines of

Creatine Monohydrate:
Smith, Kent et al. "Study of creatine in regular athletes." Journal of Health yadda yadda

Abstract: 5grams of creatine a day for 4 weeks yielded this and that.

As opposed to keeping this a buyer beware atmosphere why not try to create a resource for people to go to, make it a Sticky perhaps, regarding many common supplemets.

This is not at all hard to do. What you will find is most OTC products are underdosed. You would have to mega dose a lot of stuff currently on the market, but thats not to say things dont work.

Most supplements are proprietary blends, but standard labeling practice means you list the largest ingredient first. Its still easy to see that all the ingredients cannot be correctly dosed. If you ask the supp manufacturer they will tell you lower doses can be used because they are synergistic. When they do this I would invite you to ask them to support it, because 9 times out of 10 they will not be able too. There are rarely enough studies on individual compounds let alone mixing/matching.

Buying in bulk, dosing correctly, and/or sticking with proven products is still the way to go.

 

[SilentBob187]

Buying in bulk, dosing correctly, and/or sticking with proven products is still the way to go.

:goodpost:

 

[papapumpsd]

I just had a thought. What about possibly starting a thread that is just a series of sources and their abstracts which include the results and amts for many commonly used ingredients in supplements.

Something along the lines of

Creatine Monohydrate:
Smith, Kent et al. "Study of creatine in regular athletes." Journal of Health yadda yadda

Abstract: 5grams of creatine a day for 4 weeks yielded this and that.

As opposed to keeping this a buyer beware atmosphere why not try to create a resource for people to go to, make it a Sticky perhaps, regarding many common supplemets.

SilentBob, I LOVE this idea! Posting entire studies won't work though (not that u say it will) because people see it as too inundating to read. I like your highly edited version "5g creatine ED for 4 weeks yielded"... Xlbs of mass gain in test subjects with only 1lb mass gain in placebo group"

Now for the CHALLENGE....actually having people do the leg work in disecting these studies and posting the data. Keep in mind, these studies are often up to interpretation, but if you're scientifically inclined enough, you'll reference multiple studies to get a good feel for the legitimacy of the results.

Then what? Well, you can either buy the active ingredient and make your own supps, or find a product on the market with it in there and just buy that. AT LEAST you're legitimizing what the product might claim. I did this for a topical fat burner.

I did this for a topical fat burner (NOT giving the name out..if I do, I might sound like I'm repping it and SO HELP ME SWEET JESUS, I AM NOT). Anyways, I looked up one of the several primary ingredients and found scientific evidence to its efficacy for fat loss. I am also looking into some of the other ingredients. Why? I can maybe make my own transdermal (for personal use) and get it cheaper. Perhaps I can create a better product with less "filler ingredients" (you know, those 50 other ingredients that manufacturers add to make it look like they have some complicated product when it's really 1-2 products that are active).

Thank you EVERYONE who has participated in this thread. I'm elated this discussion is going on without a lot of "fighting" and "finger pointing" so-to-speak. As I have told another individual (via PM), I'm here as a consumer advocate.....I don't want us consumers to be ripped off anymore. I know some people think that this ridiculous hype is "just how it is" but that is NOT how it has to be. I'm serious. You need to stretch your hard-earned dollars as far as they can go....I know we're not all Bil Gates on here.

Also, feel free to PM me for whatever reason. I cap my own Arginine Ethyl Ester DiHCL (stuff is very hygroscopic and is a MESS to deal with, so if you cap it, wear gloves!) and nootropics and other stuff so if you want some calculations, know what scale to use, capsule sizes, cappers, etc, just let me know.

 

[B5150]

I think it's a great idea. In fact, when are you accepting applications for beta testers of your chocolate salty balls?

I prefer Shweddy Balls
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[Cellardude]

This is not at all hard to do. What you will find is most OTC products are underdosed. You would have to mega dose a lot of stuff currently on the market, but thats not to say things dont work.

Most supplements are proprietary blends, but standard labeling practice means you list the largest ingredient first. Its still easy to see that all the ingredients cannot be correctly dosed. If you ask the supp manufacturer they will tell you lower doses can be used because they are synergistic. When they do this I would invite you to ask them to support it, because 9 times out of 10 they will not be able too. There are rarely enough studies on individual compounds let alone mixing/matching.

Buying in bulk, dosing correctly, and/or sticking with proven products is still the way to go.

Ive had some success with just the basics. I put on 25 pounds of LBM in a year from basic supps and a TON of food. Mixing yourself is the best way to go.

I agree that most OTC products are underdosed, however even with big pharmacutical products there are times where recalls happen due to overdosing/underdosing or contamination. Things just happen even with the tighest regulations. In our pharmacy we get mail every month or two for a recall on a product due to contamination or batches that have problems. For instance, this month Digitek batches were double dosed in certian batches. The pharmacutical company doesnt know which batch so the entire lot of Digitek was recalled. With the most tight regulation things happen, so im sure even in the supplement companies these days things happen. And without a strict or tight regulation such as that of pharmacutical companies im sure these types of contaminations slide more often.

 

[atjnutrition2]

I prefer Shweddy Balls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7kwcwJ-pdA

One of the best SNL skits ever.

 

[atjnutrition2]

Sorry for the temporary hijack. Back to the purpose of this thread....I recently fell victim to some of this type marketing. I won't say what type of product it was, but I read a good deal of positive reviews and spent an entire week on the toilet. Unfortunately in this industry dishonesty, exaggeration and truth bending sells products. Personally, I will never buy any product from Muscle Tech....not the example above, but their marketing is just ridiculous. Any study validated by Dr. Strongy McBigarms or any of these other fake doctors they pull out is just insulting. (Let me also add...sorry for any incorrect spelling in this post.)

 

[papapumpsd]

Sorry for the temporary hijack. Back to the purpose of this thread....I recently fell victim to some of this type marketing. I won't say what type of product it was, but I read a good deal of positive reviews and spent an entire week on the toilet. Unfortunately in this industry dishonesty, exaggeration and truth bending sells products. Personally, I will never buy any product from Muscle Tech....not the example above, but their marketing is just ridiculous. Any study validated by Dr. Strongy McBigarms or any of these other fake doctors they pull out is just insulting. (Let me also add...sorry for any incorrect spelling in this post.)

I am sorry you had bad luck with that MFG's product. I assure, you're not alone....a bizillion others have had identical letdowns.

But let me ask everyone this one paramount question: When you read a product description, don't you ask yourselves, "How do they know the product will result in these claims?". These companies are don't independent human-based studies, so HOW ON EARTH are they making the claims they do with out doing studies? I don't get it. I'm baffled. I'm completely and utterly bamboozled. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I have a hunch they don't have any proof of their product and its ability to produce SAID CLAIM(S). That just knocks my socks off.

If any manufacturers would like to chime in here (*nudge nudge*) please do so. I'd hate to falsely accuse your practices. Honestly, if I'm mistaken in anything I say, please let me and everyone else know. This is a public forum and I eagerly invite your side of the "story". Just please, no marketing talk and no use of the following words and/or phrases: "slabs of granite thick muscle", "most powerful anabolic ever", "Veins popping out of every muscle including those you never had before", "Pumps so intense blood will squirt from your lacramial glands and anus".

 

[pmiller383]

I have to say I can't blame companies for marketing their stuff the way they do, a lot of it is over the top and sometimes way to deceptive and misleading. A lot of the blame can fall on the consumers too though, I have a friend who swore by muscletech, until he read a BSN add, but now he swears Animal Pak is the most essential supplement ever. We as consumers should take the time to educate ourselves about what were putting into our body. I will be the first to admit that I am an all out supplement whore, but I also make sure I know whats going into my body before I try things out. Now I am not saying companies should use tactics like false advertising our spiking batches of supplements with hormones so some people see results, but if they want to play up their supplements I say go for it. Just to be clear though:
Hype and Persuasive language/advertising = A OK
Bribing, False Advertising, deception, and overall tom foolery = Bush league

 

[crader]

Not all of us market that way! As well if there is a better supp or way to get it done I will often offer another companies product.

 

[papapumpsd]

I have to say I can't blame companies for marketing their stuff the way they do, a lot of it is over the top and sometimes way to deceptive and misleading. A lot of the blame can fall on the consumers too though, I have a friend who swore by muscletech, until he read a BSN add, but now he swears Animal Pak is the most essential supplement ever. We as consumers should take the time to educate ourselves about what were putting into our body. I will be the first to admit that I am an all out supplement whore, but I also make sure I know whats going into my body before I try things out. Now I am not saying companies should use tactics like false advertising our spiking batches of supplements with hormones so some people see results, but if they want to play up their supplements I say go for it. Just to be clear though:
Hype and Persuasive language/advertising = A OK
Bribing, False Advertising, deception, and overall tom foolery = Bush league

I totally agree....the consumer should educate him/herself! But some will argue that reading logs on forums IS their way of educating themselves. And others don't have the ability to sift through all of the nonsense. Thank you for your comment pmiller!

 

[papapumpsd]

Not all of us market that way! As well if there is a better supp or way to get it done I will often offer another companies product.

And I thank you for your honesty if you honestly refer people to competitive products that are better than the ones you support, sell, rep, or whatever. And please don't think I'm saying ALL manufacturers use jerkoff marketing...just a lot. I rarely use terms such as "all", "every", "never", etc. Thank you Crader for your input.

 

[Cellardude]

And I thank you for your honesty if you honestly refer people to competitive products that are better than the ones you support, sell, rep, or whatever. And please don't think I'm saying ALL manufacturers use jerkoff marketing...just a lot. I rarely use terms such as "all", "every", "never", etc. Thank you Crader for your input.

I would say the list of really respectable companies out there would be the following in my opinion. No BS coming from them, they try to practice no hype business which I admire. (not in any particular order, well maybe the last one is #1 but the others are not in any particular order )

PAL- Solid products. Everything Ive tried works and does what it says. Very honest business practices as far as im concerned.

AN - I test drived Neovar 2.0/recomped. They specifically told me to keep it on the low because they didnt want anyone to accuse them of hyping a product up before people got an actual chance to try it.

Usplabs- AP is some good stuff. I havent tried recreate yet but it seems like it's getting good reviews. I do think the product is a bit hyped and the fat loss claim is a bit far fetched but I wont exactly judge until I tried it for sure.

and lastly one of the most respectable businesses out there...

the one and only sir chuck diesel.

Chuck refuses to hire reps as he is not into hyping up his product. He likes results and thats what he wants people to buy his product for. The fact that ive heard so much good things about chuck's products and the fact that he doesnt pimp it out or have people pimp it out is extremely respectable. No reps, no hype, just word of mouth from users who have experienced good results from his products. You have to give a man MAJOR respect for that. He doesnt like to do a lot of sponsored logging and when he does he requires people to have tried x,y,z product before testing his so they can compare. His products arent as popular as some other companies on this board or others but seriously he's a one man show and the only people spreading his word are those who have tried his products and have been blown away by them. Good going chuck! The fact that you dont have any reps to spread/hype things up and have gotten this far is extremely respectable.

 

[crader]

No RPN ?

 

[Ziquor]

This is a great thread. Truth is out of the millions of products out in the supplement industry, PH/PS not included, 95%+ are complete placebos. It makes me sick sometimes how most companies make claims which are borderline illegal. A lot of the time reps are even worse since they actually aren't actual employees of their companies the liability on what they say is probably less, which lets them get away with more ludacris claims.

Obviously this isn't all compaines nor all reps - but a huge majority of. Crader has a good point & valid as well since RPN is one of the best companies around in terms of product quality & fair marketing. Not to mention truthful & quite helpful reps too. If most other companies would take a que from them the industry would be a much better place. CEL's another great company. They don't even advertise yet still have some of the best selling products around - hormonal or not.

Another thing to a different side of the topic, the way certain companies and reps jump in nearly every thread targeting newbs and younger people. They'll answer sombodies question masquerading as someone being helpful but in reality it ends up being nothing more than a shameless plug for their products. Example you see all the time someone asks how to use product A and a rep jumps in and says well the best way to take product A is along with our product X. These type of shamefull plugs should be left to the company specific sections. In some forums this is so bad it ruins the entire forum and instead of being a informational forum, the whole forum ends up being an elaborate advertisement and complete crap overall. One reason I love AM as this doesn't happen nearly as much here as it does elsewhere. It still happens more than it should here but as mentioned above business will be business.

The FDA and cGMP have planned future provisions making false and unsubstaniated claims illegal and punishable by fines. They also have plans of testing each & every supplement to ensure it contains what the label says in the correct amounts. This would obviously eliminate hormones but the I doubt anything could save otc hormones anyhow unfortunately. It sure would make the industry better IMO. Though we'll see whether or not this happens. Some may say this is good marketing but I think it's awful. Companies that make absurb claims lose my business immediately. The way I see it is if your products really work they'll sell themselves via word of mouth. Many times the best products aren't even advertised - just talked about by the thousands of people they worked for.

In the meantime there's a great company called consumerlab (that's their website name too) that I ran across that tests many companies supplements. They provide the test results including whether or not the correct ingredients are included and the advertised amounts. It's around $30 for a years subscription or something but well worth it IMO.

 

[Cellardude]

No RPN ?

i forgot!

RPN as well. I dont see any like hype of the products. All of RPN's stuff is legit. I just got me some java lather, and I love it. It kinda gives you an invigorating feeling when your getting out of the shower, feels also a bit rough too but when you dry off, your skin is like that of a babies butt!

Ill just say one thing, I think a lot of the companies here on AM are pretty good. Just a few that I would put in my bottom list that I wouldnt buy stuff from no matter how trusting the reps are. Reps are one thing to help you sell but the thing is when you represent a company the company also represents you. Represent a company that practices shady business and you pretty much have that tag on you and destroys your credibility.
Thats just how I see it.

But crader fooo sooo RPN is some good stuff. I have a nickname for your hubby, the jack of all trade. from lube,soap stretchmark creams to PH's and suntan/fat burner I think dsade has hit every department that there is to think of.

Whats this I hear about a new bbing book for kids? you guys are NUTS! where do you come up with this stuff!

 

[atjnutrition2]

Here's something I've always wondered...how many of the supposed "positive results" threads are actually written by company reps under fake names?

 

[TexasLifter89]

Here's something I've always wondered...how many of the supposed "positive results" threads are actually written by company reps under fake names?

def not mine haha. proud to say i have achieved everything that i say in mine, no hype, no BS.

 

[Cellardude]

This is a great thread. Truth is out of the millions of products out in the supplement industry, PH/PS not included, 95%+ are complete placebos. It makes me sick sometimes how most companies make claims which are borderline illegal. A lot of the time reps are even worse since they actually aren't actual employees of their companies the liability on what they say is probably less, which lets them get away with more ludacris claims.

Obviously this isn't all compaines nor all reps - but a huge majority of. Crader has a good point & valid as well since RPN is one of the best companies around in terms of product quality & fair marketing. Not to mention truthful & quite helpful reps too. If most other companies would take a que from them the industry would be a much better place. CEL's another great company. They don't even advertise yet still have some of the best selling products around - hormonal or not.

Another thing to a different side of the topic, the way certain companies and reps jump in nearly every thread targeting newbs and younger people. They'll answer sombodies question masquerading as someone being helpful but in reality it ends up being nothing more than a shameless plug for their products. Example you see all the time someone asks how to use product A and a rep jumps in and says well the best way to take product A is along with our product X. These type of shamefull plugs should be left to the company specific sections. In some forums this is so bad it ruins the entire forum and instead of being a informational forum, the whole forum ends up being an elaborate advertisement and complete crap overall. One reason I love AM as this doesn't happen nearly as much here as it does elsewhere. It still happens more than it should here but as mentioned above business will be business.

The FDA and cGMP have planned future provisions making false and unsubstaniated claims illegal and punishable by fines. They also have plans of testing each & every supplement to ensure it contains what the label says in the correct amounts. This would obviously eliminate hormones but the I doubt anything could save otc hormones anyhow unfortunately. It sure would make the industry better IMO. Though we'll see whether or not this happens. Some may say this is good marketing but I think it's awful. Companies that make absurb claims lose my business immediately. The way I see it is if your products really work they'll sell themselves via word of mouth. Many times the best products aren't even advertised - just talked about by the thousands of people they worked for.

In the meantime there's a great company called consumerlab (that's their website name too) that I ran across that tests many companies supplements. They provide the test results including whether or not the correct ingredients are included and the advertised amounts. It's around $30 for a years subscription or something but well worth it IMO.

cel i would put in my shady list. Not to be a little b1tch or anything but any company that would pull out a superdrol clone after knowing how dangerous that crap is and making it available for unsuspecting teens to buy is no good in my book. Good stuff or not, quality items or not, pulling out something like superdrol after knowing how much harm it can do to your lipids and liver is a biiig no no in my book. That in my opinion would just be to satisfy demands and make some quick money, reguardless of results.

More kids these days seem to pick up mdrol as I keep seeing on the boards than anything. That thing needs to be pulled.

 

[Cellardude]

Here's something I've always wondered...how many of the supposed "positive results" threads are actually written by company reps under fake names?

protein companies would be considered legit in my books. As long as the quality isnt compromised that is.

 

[Cellardude]

This is a great thread. Truth is out of the millions of products out in the supplement industry, PH/PS not included, 95%+ are complete placebos. It makes me sick sometimes how most companies make claims which are borderline illegal. A lot of the time reps are even worse since they actually aren't actual employees of their companies the liability on what they say is probably less, which lets them get away with more ludacris claims.

Obviously this isn't all compaines nor all reps - but a huge majority of. Crader has a good point & valid as well since RPN is one of the best companies around in terms of product quality & fair marketing. Not to mention truthful & quite helpful reps too. If most other companies would take a que from them the industry would be a much better place. CEL's another great company. They don't even advertise yet still have some of the best selling products around - hormonal or not.

Another thing to a different side of the topic, the way certain companies and reps jump in nearly every thread targeting newbs and younger people. They'll answer sombodies question masquerading as someone being helpful but in reality it ends up being nothing more than a shameless plug for their products. Example you see all the time someone asks how to use product A and a rep jumps in and says well the best way to take product A is along with our product X. These type of shamefull plugs should be left to the company specific sections. In some forums this is so bad it ruins the entire forum and instead of being a informational forum, the whole forum ends up being an elaborate advertisement and complete crap overall. One reason I love AM as this doesn't happen nearly as much here as it does elsewhere. It still happens more than it should here but as mentioned above business will be business.

The FDA and cGMP have planned future provisions making false and unsubstaniated claims illegal and punishable by fines. They also have plans of testing each & every supplement to ensure it contains what the label says in the correct amounts. This would obviously eliminate hormones but the I doubt anything could save otc hormones anyhow unfortunately. It sure would make the industry better IMO. Though we'll see whether or not this happens. Some may say this is good marketing but I think it's awful. Companies that make absurb claims lose my business immediately. The way I see it is if your products really work they'll sell themselves via word of mouth. Many times the best products aren't even advertised - just talked about by the thousands of people they worked for.

In the meantime there's a great company called consumerlab (that's their website name too) that I ran across that tests many companies supplements. They provide the test results including whether or not the correct ingredients are included and the advertised amounts. It's around $30 for a years subscription or something but well worth it IMO.

also supplement police is one of them. supplementpolice.com

They test products for stuff seein if they are legit or not. Its not in terms of if something works or not but more if what is on the label is actually in the bottle. It's a free site as well.

 

[atjnutrition2]

Most of my doubts with these companies isn't based on what's in the bottle...it's the claims made on what the ingredients in the bottle will do for you. In my opinion a lot of the weight loss pill manufacturers are the worst. Let's be honest, if there was a pill that melted the fat away there would be no obese people.

If you read truly scientific/medical studies on the ingredients found in many weight loss supplements you'll see things like "may assist with weight loss" or when taken by patients on a lower calorie diet "may result in a modest amount of weight loss."

 

[papapumpsd]

This is a great thread. Truth is out of the millions of products out in the supplement industry, PH/PS not included, 95%+ are complete placebos. It makes me sick sometimes how most companies make claims which are borderline illegal. A lot of the time reps are even worse since they actually aren't actual employees of their companies the liability on what they say is probably less, which lets them get away with more ludacris claims.

Obviously this isn't all compaines nor all reps - but a huge majority of. Crader has a good point & valid as well since RPN is one of the best companies around in terms of product quality & fair marketing. Not to mention truthful & quite helpful reps too. If most other companies would take a que from them the industry would be a much better place. CEL's another great company. They don't even advertise yet still have some of the best selling products around - hormonal or not.

Another thing to a different side of the topic, the way certain companies and reps jump in nearly every thread targeting newbs and younger people. They'll answer sombodies question masquerading as someone being helpful but in reality it ends up being nothing more than a shameless plug for their products. Example you see all the time someone asks how to use product A and a rep jumps in and says well the best way to take product A is along with our product X. These type of shamefull plugs should be left to the company specific sections. In some forums this is so bad it ruins the entire forum and instead of being a informational forum, the whole forum ends up being an elaborate advertisement and complete crap overall. One reason I love AM as this doesn't happen nearly as much here as it does elsewhere. It still happens more than it should here but as mentioned above business will be business.

The FDA and cGMP have planned future provisions making false and unsubstaniated claims illegal and punishable by fines. They also have plans of testing each & every supplement to ensure it contains what the label says in the correct amounts. This would obviously eliminate hormones but the I doubt anything could save otc hormones anyhow unfortunately. It sure would make the industry better IMO. Though we'll see whether or not this happens. Some may say this is good marketing but I think it's awful. Companies that make absurb claims lose my business immediately. The way I see it is if your products really work they'll sell themselves via word of mouth. Many times the best products aren't even advertised - just talked about by the thousands of people they worked for.

In the meantime there's a great company called consumerlab (that's their website name too) that I ran across that tests many companies supplements. They provide the test results including whether or not the correct ingredients are included and the advertised amounts. It's around $30 for a years subscription or something but well worth it IMO.

:goodpost: WELL SAID and thank you for the "consumerlab" heads-up! :clap2:

 

[papapumpsd]

i forgot!

RPN as well. I dont see any like hype of the products. All of RPN's stuff is legit. I just got me some java lather, and I love it. It kinda gives you an invigorating feeling when your getting out of the shower, feels also a bit rough too but when you dry off, your skin is like that of a babies butt!

Ill just say one thing, I think a lot of the companies here on AM are pretty good. Just a few that I would put in my bottom list that I wouldnt buy stuff from no matter how trusting the reps are. Reps are one thing to help you sell but the thing is when you represent a company the company also represents you. Represent a company that practices shady business and you pretty much have that tag on you and destroys your credibility.
Thats just how I see it.

But crader fooo sooo RPN is some good stuff. I have a nickname for your hubby, the jack of all trade. from lube,soap stretchmark creams to PH's and suntan/fat burner I think dsade has hit every department that there is to think of.

Whats this I hear about a new bbing book for kids? you guys are NUTS! where do you come up with this stuff!

I am not calling any ONE company out (with the exception of MuscleTech, which royally deserves it in my opinion). I AM though targeting my anger at those companies, as stated previously, that make ludicrous UNsupported claims to make a quick buck off us consumers. I absolutely agree that there are great companies out there that aren't hyping and whoring their products (and that have products that actually yield said results). I cannot agree that the companies you have listed are in the 'approved' category as I have not purchased any of their products, nor have I looked into their claims and ingredients.

But, you mentioned Diesel products. I have NOT tried this brand, but I've started looking into it and it seems promising. I also agree with you Cellar that Diesel Dood doesn't appear to whore out his stuff in a deceitful way.

I believe if a product is TRULY good (does what it claims) it will be around for a while. There are only a few products that stick with the times. Superdrol, while the original brand is gone, mimickers exist....for a reason (I'm not going to get into the pro's vs. con's on this and other PH products, my point is that SD gave REAL results). Also, good ole creatine. Been here for well over 10 years.

 

[CROWLER]

I would say the list of really respectable companies out there would be the following in my opinion. No BS coming from them, they try to practice no hype business which I admire. (not in any particular order, well maybe the last one is #1 but the others are not in any particular order )

PAL- Solid products. Everything Ive tried works and does what it says. Very honest business practices as far as im concerned.

AN - I test drived Neovar 2.0/recomped. They specifically told me to keep it on the low because they didnt want anyone to accuse them of hyping a product up before people got an actual chance to try it.

Usplabs- AP is some good stuff. I havent tried recreate yet but it seems like it's getting good reviews. I do think the product is a bit hyped and the fat loss claim is a bit far fetched but I wont exactly judge until I tried it for sure.

and lastly one of the most respectable businesses out there...

the one and only sir chuck diesel.

Chuck refuses to hire reps as he is not into hyping up his product. He likes results and thats what he wants people to buy his product for. The fact that ive heard so much good things about chuck's products and the fact that he doesnt pimp it out or have people pimp it out is extremely respectable. No reps, no hype, just word of mouth from users who have experienced good results from his products. You have to give a man MAJOR respect for that. He doesnt like to do a lot of sponsored logging and when he does he requires people to have tried x,y,z product before testing his so they can compare. His products arent as popular as some other companies on this board or others but seriously he's a one man show and the only people spreading his word are those who have tried his products and have been blown away by them. Good going chuck! The fact that you dont have any reps to spread/hype things up and have gotten this far is extremely respectable.

No Anabolic Innovations? Cry ]


:hammer:


CROWLER

 

[Iron Lungz]

I like the always great response of, "Oh yeah, it works. Just go check the logs... you'll see then!" I usually flush my logs, but I guess some would rather hold on to their sh!t.

 

[papapumpsd]

I like the always great response of, "Oh yeah, it works. Just go check the logs... you'll see then!" I usually flush my logs, but I guess some would rather hold on to their sh!t.

LOL, no doubt!

 

[Cellardude]

No Anabolic Innovations? Cry ]


:hammer:


CROWLER

how bout sending me some cheat cookies. :dance:

I havent cheated in WEEKS on my cut. Im desperate. :fool2:

I didnt mention you specifically crowler but you are on my good list no doubt. I only look down upon a few companies who are sponsors here and for the sake of respecting bobo and the fact that they are AM sponsors I shall not name them. Send the fat boy some cookiess I need a cheat. :aargh:

 

[papapumpsd]

Now that we're getting company-specific name references, please identify which company(ies) you are affiliated with either contractually or through a non-formal agreement. If you are compensated in any way by any company, please identify that in your posts in this thread please.

 

[bolt10]

how bout sending me some cheat cookies. :dance:

I havent cheated in WEEKS on my cut. Im desperate. :fool2:

I didnt mention you specifically crowler but you are on my good list no doubt. I only look down upon a few companies who are sponsors here and for the sake of respecting bobo and the fact that they are AM sponsors I shall not name them. Send the fat boy some cookiess I need a cheat. :aargh:

What about nimbus!!!???!?! :aargh:

i am a nimbus rep papapumpsd and i am just playing around