Too much Bull$hit talk by Supplement Mfgs

[Cellardude]

What about nimbus!!!???!?! :aargh:

i am a nimbus rep papapumpsd and i am just playing around

woohoo everyone looks up to cellardude for approval. :dance:

:hammer:

Here Here! I say order in the court.

 

[Ziquor]

cel i would put in my shady list. Not to be a little b1tch or anything but any company that would pull out a superdrol clone after knowing how dangerous that crap is and making it available for unsuspecting teens to buy is no good in my book. Good stuff or not, quality items or not, pulling out something like superdrol after knowing how much harm it can do to your lipids and liver is a biiig no no in my book. That in my opinion would just be to satisfy demands and make some quick money, reguardless of results.

More kids these days seem to pick up mdrol as I keep seeing on the boards than anything. That thing needs to be pulled.

You gotta give CEL credit for the warning on M-Drol. Stating that M-Drol is inappropriate for anyone's 1st anabolic cycle and also it requires a PCT.

 

[Thudd]

Overhyping supplements

Really, we bring it on ourselves by human nature. Consider:

Product 1: "Taken in combination with a high calorie diet and sufficiently intense exercise program combined with sufficient rest and recovery, XXXX may result in up to a 2kg lean tissue increase over a 12 week cycle."

Product 2: "Experience explosive cryo-anabolic growth with the most hardcore supplement available!!! Minutes after taking YYYY you will literally feel the seven thousand mass-building ingredients, developed from previously secret Soviet cold war research, flooding into your muscles, putting you into the most skin-splitting anabolic phase you've ever experienced!!!"

Which one, do you honestly think will sell more?

It's the same reason that people keep falling for Nigerian scams and the like, there's enough people out there who are willing to set aside their disbelief in the hope of a quick buck for minimal effort. Until people start engaging their brain when presented with too-good-to-be-true offers then we'll keep being presented with too-good-to-be-true offers.

 

[tgood323]

Loving this thread

Man I am loving this thread, especially since today i went to gnc only cuase i ripped them off and printed a bunch of $5 off coupons offline and the kid they have working there tried to pimp how great a company muscletech is and i was just sitting there laughing at the $80 4lbs. of **** protein. After that i couldn't even bring myself to buy anything even with the coupon. I love the anabolic halo promotion posted at the beginning of the thread but I think my favorite ever is in Legal Gear's Methyl 1-D they say it causes you to give off the "alpha-male smell" that the ladies love. I don't blame the supplement companies for pimping their products like this cause the fact of the matter is a majority of the supplement industry is those who don't do solid solid research and gobble up everything they read, and business is business. It does irritate me though when I have to sift through tons of information trying to find whats true and whats bullshit, which is why I'd like to thank AN and Chuch D for their solid products and rep which is why I usually stick with their products.

 

[Ziquor]

What about nimbus!!!???!?! :aargh:

i am a nimbus rep papapumpsd and i am just playing around

I agree 100%. Like RPN, Nimbus has great products and fair marketing. Poseidon, and the poseidon 'matrix' that's in most of Nimbus products, is one of the best products ever released IMO.

Also I agree Crowler that AI has some gems as well. Cycle Support is a must have for any cycle IMO. Great mix. One thing I can't rave is the taste, lol. Sorry no offense I understand the mix of herbs probably makes for the extreme taste, but damn.

 

[Cellardude]

You gotta give CEL credit for the warning on M-Drol. Stating that M-Drol is inappropriate for anyone's 1st anabolic cycle and also it requires a PCT.

yeah, but that brings both good and bad.

good- theres a warning
bad- people who are convinced on taking it will ultimately be even more convinced.

stupid teenager: ooooh theres a warning on the label. It must be one of those of muscle tech warnings as well! It must mean its SUPER powerful. Let me mega dose on this.

If you are really concerned about the greater good of the people and not money, you would not try to break loop holes to bring a product that has been removed back into the market. Warning label dont mean **** if you intend to break loopholes in the law to make some money.

 

[Ziquor]

Methyl-1-D(hea)?

 

[Ziquor]

yeah, but that brings both good and bad.

good- theres a warning
bad- people who are convinced on taking it will ultimately be even more convinced.

stupid teenager: ooooh theres a warning on the label. It must be one of those of muscle tech warnings as well! It must mean its SUPER powerful. Let me mega dose on this.

If you are really concerned about the greater good of the people and not money, you would not try to break loop holes to bring a product that has been removed back into the market. Warning label dont mean **** if you intend to break loopholes in the law to make some money.

They do say not intended for anyone under 21. Websites (re-sellers) should use an advanced security to ensure nobody under 21 can buy hormones, even though it wouldn't eliminate all problems with minors it'd help. Like underage drinking, it'll never stop. In a sense I do get what your saying. But as an adult consumer I research everything thoroughly before I take it. Actually I did my whole life. But to criticize taking advantage of loopholes is like criticizing every company on AM, including NP itself so I don't agree there.

 

[papapumpsd]

Thudd and Tgood, thank you for your input. In my opinion, if nobody pipes up about this joke of an industry (supplement) and what lack of regulation is doing, this twisted industry will be the demise of its own self and you and I will lose all the way til its end. I refuse to sit around and take this crap that is being dished out to us. If you want to see a change, then freaking ask for it..."boycott", something. Sitting around and taking it up the ass is great if you like pole-sitting.

I agree Thudd that there are extremely gullible people out there. I KNOW there are (I know some personally). That doesn't me start sucker-marketing and making false/fake product reviews and paying people to say all good things about your product even though they can't even spell its name.

Why is this industry so jacked up? Why is there NO other legal industry like it? It's because there is no control/regulation over it. I revert back to my previous post regarding how manufacturers can make strong claims, yet have no supporting, concrete evidence. It's hard to ignore this. It really is.

Hey, if I EVER come out with my own product, it will be for the betterment of bodybuilders, athletes, etc, NOT to sucker some dreamers into adding 25lbs of rock solid muscle for a quick, temporary revenue stream.

 

[Highlanda01602]

I do understand why marketing shemes reach such elaborate extremes, but Muscle Tech's AH just is absolutely hilarious. You guys left out the best part... the DIRECTIONS...
"Start off by consuming 1 serving (1 heaping scoop) mixed in 4 oz. of cold water right after your workout. As you develop respect for and truly comprehend the power of the ANABOLIC HALO, up your dose to 3 servings." NO NOOBZ ALLOWED!!

I can't bring myself to open up the description at Nutraplanet, but I'm pretty sure that MuscleTech advises you not the shake the bottle, as IT WILL XPLOOODE

 

[papapumpsd]

And thank you everyone for showing others respect when in debate. I'm glad there is no "flaming". This is a thread based on NOTHING but opinions and we all have them. I'm signing off for the night. I need my Z's! :yawn:

 

[papapumpsd]

I do understand why marketing shemes reach such elaborate extremes, but Muscle Tech's AH just is absolutely hilarious. You guys left out the best part... the DIRECTIONS...
"Start off by consuming 1 serving (1 heaping scoop) mixed in 4 oz. of cold water right after your workout. As you develop respect for and truly comprehend the power of the ANABOLIC HALO, up your dose to 3 servings." NO NOOBZ ALLOWED!!

I can't bring myself to open up the description at Nutraplanet, but I'm pretty sure that MuscleTech advises you not the shake the bottle, as IT WILL XPLOOODE

I was looking for the directions too! I read it and I could NOT believe it. In fact, I e-mailed it to a buddy of mine and I was just LIVID. I was so royally pissed of dood, it was unreal. Some crap about "careful when opening, it's highly reactive contents could escape into the air" or some off-the-charts B.S. like that.

Great, now you have me sick to my stomach......thanks for making me think of the MuscleTech ad.

 

[Cellardude]

They do say not intended for anyone under 21. Websites (re-sellers) should use an advanced security to ensure nobody under 21 can buy hormones, even though it wouldn't eliminate all problems with minors it'd help. Like underage drinking, it'll never stop. In a sense I do get what your saying. But as an adult consumer I research everything thoroughly before I take it. Actually I did my whole life. But to criticize taking advantage of loopholes is like criticizing every company on AM, including NP itself so I don't agree there.

well retailers are asked to stock X product. I dont completely blame the company for being irresponsible, there is a reason superdrol clones,halodrol clones and pheraplex clones are back on the market. Cause consumers want and request it. You cant agian blame the industry entirely, they push what you want to hear and bring things you want.I agree you cant completly put fault on one company for bringing back the clones. Consumers want it and thats the drive to bring it back and make money.

Look at nutraplanet, why wouldnt they carry mdrol its like one of the best sellers. (which scares me cause ill bet a TON of kids get there hands on it but is that the fault of nutra, not really. Lack of fulfilling request would most likely approximate to slow down of sales. If popular item X isnt in stock and people want it and you dont have it then they'll go elsewhere not only for that particular item but everything to make it convient. So agian, I do see that you have a valid point it is not exactly the companys fault for bringing back the products but still, putting a warning label doesnt justify that they are a good company. You can warn people all you want but the truth is the best warning is to not put something out if your overly concerned about the greater good of the people.

I dont blame internet retailers for buying items even if the company is someone shady. It's a request from consumers to stock up on X and by not having just this one item thats really popular, it can really hit your sales hard. Imagine if nutra boycotted recreate. How many of you guys ordered something else with recreate? How many of you guys like to pay extra shipping for the additional item? No one does, that is simply the reason why I believe or the best justification for why retailers eventhough knowing a company isnt exactly responsible for putting out product X stocks it up. The consumers are part to blame in this situation, the company who produces this as well. That is just my belief however.

 

[Cellardude]

And thank you everyone for showing others respect when in debate. I'm glad there is no "flaming". This is a thread based on NOTHING but opinions and we all have them. I'm signing off for the night. I need my Z's! :yawn:

we not bb.com

we civilized ninja monkeys,we not wild ones. :toofunny: (the bad grammar is intentional if you havent noticed )

o.0 banana plox for the ninja monkey! or else we sick some anabolic halo on your hairy butt!

 

[pmiller383]

I was looking for the directions too! I read it and I could NOT believe it. In fact, I e-mailed it to a buddy of mine and I was just LIVID. I was so royally pissed of dood, it was unreal. Some crap about "careful when opening, it's highly reactive contents could escape into the air" or some off-the-charts B.S. like that.

Great, now you have me sick to my stomach......thanks for making me think of the MuscleTech ad.

I heard about a kid that shook up an Anabolic Halo container and opened it...no one else has heard from him since. Word on the streets is he got so big so quick from inhaling the actives that he just exploded.
Sorry, back to serious conversations.

 

[Thudd]

I heard about a kid that shook up an Anabolic Halo container and opened it...no one else has heard from him since.

OT: it reminds me of a joke.
Did you hear about the kid who tried to light a fire using benzene? He hasn't benzene since...

 

[atjnutrition2]

pump, you asked why this industry is so flooded with these tactics....IMO it's because of the very nature of the industry. Most of the people buying these products are unhappy in some way with the way they look. There are self esteem issues at play. For the overweight person, they are constantly flooded with images of the super-skinny model. For the weight lifter/bodybuilder, they are flooded with images of 300lb roid monsters. Either way there is an underlying sense of not being satisfied with how they look. These companies understand that and take advantage of those insecurities. Even the largest of the bodybuilders at times looks in the mirror and thinks to himself that he would like to look a little bigger. When a company comes along with the hyper-inflated claims people cling to that in the hopes of reaching that unreachable image.

IMO the fat burners worst ones. There have millions and millions of dollars pumped into the research of combating obesity, and still there has been no magic pill found. It really chaps my a@@ to see the claims made by a lot of these companies. I'll say it again, if there was a magic weight loss pill there would be no obese people. If you're cutting your calories by 1000cal. a day, my money says that's why you're loosing weight...not some pill that you're taking.

 

[Big BAMA]

You mean Anabolic Halo ain't real? Man, my whole day is ruined. I was sure the guy at GNC was telling the truth. He said even Jay Cutler used it.

 

[crader]

Most of my doubts with these companies isn't based on what's in the bottle...it's the claims made on what the ingredients in the bottle will do for you. In my opinion a lot of the weight loss pill manufacturers are the worst. Let's be honest, if there was a pill that melted the fat away there would be no obese people.

If you read truly scientific/medical studies on the ingredients found in many weight loss supplements you'll see things like "may assist with weight loss" or when taken by patients on a lower calorie diet "may result in a modest amount of weight loss."

There would still be obese people because everything takes work. There is no majic weight loss pill, or pill to gain muscle in the gym, it takes doing everything right to get what you want. Not one of us in the supplement industry can claim that. Your protein balls won't build muscle if they don't lift or they eat wrond the rest of the day..Just like our fat burner won't make tham lean if they don't put forth effort in the gym or diet.

I honestly don't think that most companies put their reps up to the logs. An IP check would determine that. As well as the negative feedback from the people scammed into trying it would come out and over ride the logs.

 

[dsade]

IMO the fat burners worst ones. There have millions and millions of dollars pumped into the research of combating obesity, and still there has been no magic pill found. It really chaps my a@@ to see the claims made by a lot of these companies. I'll say it again, if there was a magic weight loss pill there would be no obese people. If you're cutting your calories by 1000cal. a day, my money says that's why you're loosing weight...not some pill that you're taking.

You also forget, sir, that the only compounds that the Pharm industry deem worth researching are compounds that are patentable. You cannot patent an herb, or other naturally existing compounds even if they are damn effective at what they do.

 

[atjnutrition2]

You also forget, sir, that the only compounds that the Pharm industry deem worth researching are compounds that are patentable. You cannot patent an herb, or other naturally existing compounds even if they are damn effective at what they do.

Point taken....excuse my ignorance in that regard. I hope you don't take it that I was slamming any particular company....as I am more than sure that there are reputable companies out there.

 

[dsade]

Point taken....excuse my ignorance in that regard. I hope you don't take it that I was slamming any particular company....as I am more than sure that there are reputable companies out there.

Not at all...the problems are rampant in that there are reputable companies intermixed with a LOT of unscrupulous ones. the challenge to research and find what truly works rather than who has the most SWOLE KICKASS ADVERTARDICLES is ongoing and difficult. The discussion is always welcome.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

There is a misconception in terms of available overhead to divert to clinical research in this respect - it is simply not there. If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. Those results would be negated not only from a popular standpoint, but recent studies have concluded significant funding biases exist both in the parameters and eventual outcome of a study. What, then, should be a companies resource for objective proof? Third party, unaffiliated research.

As for the concern about constructing research around supplement's affects on weight lifters - if only the world (well our world, more specifically) was that serene. As dsade alluded to, research is conducted primarily, though not exclusively, on compounds which may have a relevant pharmaceutical capacity i.e., can be synthesized, patented, and sold en masse. As weight lifters, we are not a lucrative, and therefore unnoticed, population in terms of clinical research; especially in respects to 'niche' ingredients.

If companies began diverting that much overhead to clinical R&D, you would not have supplements - period. Why is it that bulk products are so significantly lower than branded products? No logistical (employee salaries, marketing initiatives, shipping and processing, sourcing fees, extraction and manufacturing fees, lawyers, and so on) concerns. Unfortunately, funding your own clinical research is a massive whale of a logistical concern. If every supplement company began funding research, the $50 supplement being lamented would be an $80 supplement.

Personally, I feel quite confident in the objective clinical research - and critical engagement with the limitations of that research - behind our products. When asked, I readily provide evidence that correlates our products with their perceived affects in a real-world capacity. We feel we have chosen ingredients whose standardization and dosing are congruent with the suggested research models. This means extrapolating the mg/kg dosage used on rats, for example, to a relevant dose in our products. Unfortunately, this is not necessarily 'industry practice', which explains the failure of promising compounds in a real world application.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Not at all...the problems are rampant in that there are reputable companies intermixed with a LOT of unscrupulous ones. the challenge to research and find what truly works rather than who has the most SWOLE KICKASS ADVERTARDICLES is ongoing and difficult. The discussion is always welcome.

Yah it's hard to explain to people that yes there are good products and good companies, but they are these smaller lesser known guys. If they haven't heard of them they think that their products don't work. They just can't conceive of some small company has come up with something innovative. Well yah it's a little hard to believe I understand. The answer is if anybody asks, is that they're the only ones that are making an attempt. These other big companies pool all their resources on advertising.

 

[atjnutrition2]

Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.

In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.

On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.

 

[Cellardude]

Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.

In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.

On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.

you mean shady old muscletech and their hydroxycut ads that havent changed eventhough the ingredience has changed multiple times? The same Dr.John Marshall or w/e his name is that reports that he has lost 38 w/e pounds on hydroycut in 4 weeks and feels as if he is in the best condition of his life?

The same company who has taken out ephedra and still claims that their product is the same and works better than any other fat loss product ever made? :Lol:

 

[ReaperX]

Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.

In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.

On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.

You have to consider the general population and who you are appealing to. Making statements that the majority of the population are not knowledgeable to know is still profitable.

The ridiculous advertising and claims are primarly geared towards the individual who is a weekend warrior or not taking fitness seriously. There are both sides of the fence, however, the larger group is people with a lackadasical attitude towards fitness.


In magazines and tv, people want the perfect physique, as the majority of the people want it immediately. Even with all the chemical enchancement advances out there, there is still a time factor that needs to be utilized regardless. People (esp the unknowledgeable ones) will correlate steroids to results.


To a certain degree this is true, but there are a lot of behind the scenes psychology at play.

Who wants to believe that eating properly and training correct is the bulk of the answer towards acheiving your goals ?


Not a lot of people. All it takes is one or a few people who are in excellent shape to say that 'x,y,z' made them look like that, whether it did or not.


Something triggers in people's heads that the 'elusive results' they cannot obtain are due to an item not currently available to them.


So they go out and buy it.


I don't agree with alot of the exaggerated marketing practices, but in the same sense that is how you run a business. It's not the very knowledgeable serious lifters who are going to be keeping the business alive, it's the other guys.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Mullet, as always your responses are well thought out and intelligent. I'm playing a little more of a devil's advocate on this one so please don't take offense.

In your response you alluded to the fact that as weightlifters we are not a lucrative market, yet the supplement industry is a billion(?) dollar industry. In your opinion (and anyone else who wants to answer) is it that more of the money is being spent by the so called "weekend warriors" of the fitness and weighlifting population. Ie. those who can be considered casual lifters or exercisers. And if that is the case, is it that population that is being taken advantage of by those less than scrupulous companies? Or do you think that the serious weightlifters are just as vulnurable to dishonest marketing tactics.

On a side note let me clarify what I said earlier about weight loss companies. I was refering more to the companies that you see advertised during the day and late at night on t.v. Those companies prey on the home makers who are less likely to be the ones visiting a gym or eating sensibly. I have read/heard nothing but good from most of the companies here on AM.

To clarify, the supplement industry as it pertains to supermarket chain, infomercial, and mainstream health and nutritional supplements is a very large industry; in this specific respect (niche market ingredients, somewhat unpublished compounds, physique-altering/myotropic products) the market is somewhat small - at least smaller than many in this thread would assume.

Let me use an example, from our company, to clarify between bold and outlandish (there is a difference) statements, for the purposes of this argument. A claim for PowerFULL is that it raises GH 221%. Now, this must be false, correct? Incorrect. In the Greenspan (or Lin and Tucci, cannot remember off hand) 500mg oral levodopa was administered to normal, healthy adults and a peak-point increase in GH was noted. This curve was equivalent to 221% increase from baseline levels. Is this bold to feature it prominently in advertising? Most definitely. Is it outlandish? By definition, no. Despite the fact this pisses people off, it's fortunately (or unfortunately, if you do not like USP Labs) true.

To answer your question though, I think this industry is based of misinformation, a lack of education, mysticism, and marketing. This has unfortunately had two major effects; firstly, unfounded and unscrupulous companies take advantage of these unfavorable traits. This both victimizes a consumer population and creates a vague line between reputable and fly-by-night companies; secondly, an at times unhealthy skepticism and cynical-contemptuous attitude is fostered towards legitimate companies.

 

[Cellardude]

You have to consider the general population and who you are appealing to. Making statements that the majority of the population are not knowledgeable to know is still profitable.

The ridiculous advertising and claims are primarly geared towards the individual who is a weekend warrior or not taking fitness seriously. There are both sides of the fence, however, the larger group is people with a lackadasical attitude towards fitness.


In magazines and tv, people want the perfect physique, as the majority of the people want it immediately. Even with all the chemical enchancement advances out there, there is still a time factor that needs to be utilized regardless. People (esp the unknowledgeable ones) will correlate steroids to results.


To a certain degree this is true, but there are a lot of behind the scenes psychology at play.

Who wants to believe that eating properly and training correct is the bulk of the answer towards acheiving your goals ?


Not a lot of people. All it takes is one or a few people who are in excellent shape to say that 'x,y,z' made them look like that, whether it did or not.


Something triggers in people's heads that the 'elusive results' they cannot obtain are due to an item not currently available to them.


So they go out and buy it.


I don't agree with alot of the exaggerated marketing practices, but in the same sense that is how you run a business. It's not the very knowledgeable serious lifters who are going to be keeping the business alive, it's the other guys.

word and they target those individuals rather than the bb community. Thats why you dont see any of those crazy ads flying around these forums. You simply cant get away with telling us lose 20 pounds in 10 weeks! Instead they target those who dont know any better. In magazines they will whip out the good old huge ripped guys or slim huge titted girls to lure people into buying products. They cant pull that on a bodybuilding forum simply because its not going to work. So they get technical with us here. :fool2:

 

[TexasLifter89]

Yah it's hard to explain to people that yes there are good products and good companies, but they are these smaller lesser known guys. If they haven't heard of them they think that their products don't work. They just can't conceive of some small company has come up with something innovative. Well yah it's a little hard to believe I understand. The answer is if anybody asks, is that they're the only ones that are making an attempt. These other big companies pool all their resources on advertising.

i will second this. I go to my high school gym bring some of the supp i use and the se guys are alwasy like " you have supps and companies we never have heard of" and im like "because the ones you havent heard of are the good ones, the ones that work by mouth not advertising". i enjoy very much what AM has done for me the past 4 months!! and i salute all the companies & repsi have intereacted with on here and hope to one day have my own company or something here

 

[The Paper Route]

Also, will the company 'reps' please stop saying (or mellow it a bit) your products are the best any and everytime someone posts asking about them? You're just diluting your credibility. How many countless times I've read, for example, "Guys, I'm considering getting Torrey Lab's Ground Meal Worm Growth Matrix powder to add mass. Ever hear anything about it?". Then the Torray Labs guy immediately chimes in, "It works awesome. I've recomped like crazy with it. In fact, it stacks awesome with our Sh*t-On-A-Stic and our Anabolic Corn Flakes. Try them all!". ugh

lol :goodpost:

 

[Ziquor]

Originally Posted by papapumpsd

Also, will the company 'reps' please stop saying (or mellow it a bit) your products are the best any and everytime someone posts asking about them? You're just diluting your credibility. How many countless times I've read, for example, "Guys, I'm considering getting Torrey Lab's Ground Meal Worm Growth Matrix powder to add mass. Ever hear anything about it?". Then the Torray Labs guy immediately chimes in, "It works awesome. I've recomped like crazy with it. In fact, it stacks awesome with our Sh*t-On-A-Stic and our Anabolic Corn Flakes. Try them all!". ugh

lol

lol :goodpost:

Yeah but if the reps stopped making these claims they wouldn't get their free supplements for the company they rep

 

[R-Mac]

I'm on a lunch break right now, so I thought I'd go off on a tangent regarding how tired I am of supplement companies spamming the planet with ludicrous product claims and lack of supporting data. It's gotten to the point that I really don't buy too many products anymore (once in a while I do, if I've legitimzed the claim(s)).

So supplement manufacturers, listen up. Here's some direct-from-the-consumer feedback. If anyone else is tired of this marketing "slap in the face" by manufacturers, speak up please.

So I logged onto this board a few minutes ago and immediately an advertisement appears(along with a product photo). On the bottle of this so-called life-changing product (all of them are is seems they claim), it just touts "skin splitting pumps", along with a laundry list of other unwordly effects of this miracle product. What, my skin will LITERALLY split from the pumps or something? Get real. All "muscle pumping" products regurgitate the same bull$hit. If I want a pump, I'll blow $.02 cents/serving on Arginine Ethyl Ester DiHCL powder. If I really want a pump, I'll throw in creatine ethyl ester powder (even cheaper).

Aside from over-priced yet mundane product results from these hyped up products that have usually one primary ingredient (see above), I'm sick and tired of the pathetic claims and marketing terminology used in product descriptions.

PRIME EXAMPLE: MuscleTech

I NEED you all to read this product description for MuscleTech's Anabolic Halo product.

"In just seconds, an intense, glacial-like chill overwhelms the back of your throat. The subzero, arctic outbreak has begun! In virtually no time, it feels like your entire physiological profile is “freezing” as the mega-dose of more than 75 cutting-edge and musclebuilding ingredients in the ANABOLIC HALO™ formula courses through your veins. The cryo-anabolic post-workout growth-inducing event invades your muscles and engages an anabolic uprising within them … leaving them with no choice but to grow!

With your first dose, the most hardcore anabolic supplement on the planet sends a powerful rush of musclebuilding ingredients coursing through your veins!

Brace yourself, for the extreme musclebuilding potency of the world’s most hardcore anabolic/non-androgenic musclebuilding supplement – ANABOLIC HALO. The cryogenically enhanced formula forces you into a total body muscle metamorphosis … a transitional growth phase that has you witness your frame explode with new mass. A never-before-seen arsenal of anabolic and muscle-morphing compounds floods your muscular pathway, switching on the currents that control your growth, and telling your muscles to take on massive, granite-thick shape! It synergizes a shockingly powerful anabolic environment that radiates from your muscles, setting the stage for chilling, eerie muscle gains the likes of which no bodybuilder has ever imagined.


What is this thing you’re feeling? It’s the power of -320 degrees Fahrenheit. Three pharmaceutically inspired, cryogenic technologies never before seen within the realm of bodybuilding supplementation synchronize the muscle manipulating powers of ANABOLIC HALO. Featuring three SUB-ZERO™ Technologies – Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology, Lyophilization and Anabolic Crystallographic Technology – ANABOLIC HALO unleashes the exclusive power of cryo-anabolic molecules.

The first, Cryogenic Thermomolecular Technology, uses mechanically measured blasts of impossibly low-temperature liquid nitrogen, as cold as -320 degrees Fahrenheit, to thermomolecularly enhance a precise portion of one of the most anabolic compounds on the planet.

The second pharmaceutically inspired technology, called Lyophilization, actually changes the physical state of a proprietary dose of an anti-catabolic complex in ANABOLIC HALO. Lyophilization exploits the micro-molecular process of sublimation which is so advanced, it actually forces molecules within a structure to skip matter states and go directly from a solid to a gas.

The third, cryogenic process, called Anabolic Crystallographic Technology, discharges a 180-minute treatment of liquid nitrogen at -150 degrees Fahrenheit on a critical anabolic compound. The resulting molecular structure is unlike anything ever witnessed in bodybuilding!

Make no mistake, ANABOLIC HALO™ is designed to throw muscles into the most hardcore, anabolic state they’ve ever been in. The ultra-potent blend sets off a sequence of six growth-inducing elements guaranteed to make your muscles balloon to monstrous proportions … like you’ve never seen before! And the formula is relentless, continuing to work until a larger, more muscular being stares back at you in the mirror!"

source: MuscleTech - ANABOLIC HALO - The World's Cyro-Anabolic Post-Workout Growth-Inducing Event

WTF is this INSANE BULL$HIT?! This should honestly be illegal to publish such volumes of nonsensicle and misleading content. Do they have research to support these fu**ing ridiculous claims? Hell no. It's loaded to the brim with B.S.!

And MuscleTech isn't alone with this nonsense hype. I'm sure you've all read other product descriptions. LOADED with false hope.

MANUFACTURERES: Here's a novel idea: How about doing human trials on REGULAR weight lifters, not DARREN CHARLES juice-head freaks? You know, blow $25,000 on a test group of lifters and a placebo group. That silly testing that pharmaceutical companies do for their drugs. Know what I mean? Put up some data to support your dumba$$ claims. I don't buy your hyped up poser products because they either A) don't work at all, or B) work very little (too little to justify the cost, aka, A WASTE).


Some of you might claim, "but there are logs of REAL people using products). Yep, sure are. And when they post logs of Product A while on Products B, C, D, E, F....n, who gives a rat's a$$? Where's the placebo group? Oh ya, there isn't one. The user that claims, "I gained 5 lbs in week 1!!! OMFG, this is AMAZING!", didn't do bodyfat analysis (pre/post), is now consuming increased amounts of water since (s)he think (s)he is on some mega anabolic product and needs to guzzle gallons/day, etc, etc, etc. VERY, VERY little science put into a "log".

But wait, I saw "before & after" photos. This person really added mass. Great, I add mass too when I start pounding weight gainers and water. Also, there's the outside of the body, and then, OMG, there's an INSIDE! How's that liver doing champ? How are your lipids? Blood pressure? Cognition? Simple things you can track if a simple product trial is done, but what "logs" don't (or very, very rarely) track correctly.

And when you manufacturers get on review boards and use fake profile names like, "John12341", I know it's you so cut the $hit. Stop falsely inflating the reviews with your B.S. When I read overly optimistic reviews on products (like, 10 5-star ratings) with reviews claiming AMAZING, UNGODLY results, you think I believe that? Even Superdrol had haters...a lot, and it gave incredible results (many which weren't appreciated by users, aka, negative side effects).

Conclusion: MANUFACTURERS, GET SOME REAL SUPPORTIVE DATA FROM "REGULAR" FU**ING LIFERS WHO AREN'T ON JUICE/GEAR AND NOT ON ANY OTHER SUPPLEMENTS. STOP USING PRO's TO HYPE YOUR CRAP. STOP FALIFYING PRODUCT REVIEWS. STOP READING THE LATEST ARTICLES IN "JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION" THEN MAKING SOME JERK-OFF PRODUCT BASED ON SOME QUESTIONABLE RESULTS from Dr. Krishnamurthy at UCLA, WITHOUT REAL, NON-MISLEADING HUMAN PRODUCT TRIAL DATA.

For now you can eat a big one cause I make my own supps. using bulk powders, tried-and-true primary ingredients (CEE, AEE, etc) all at a fraction of the cost of your J.U.N.K.

You're ruining what could be a very useful industry.

OUT

what a pathetic write up!

Furthermore.... I thought Dr. Evil (in my best Autin Powers voice) was the only one who was Cryogenically frozen...:toofunny:

 

[strategicmove]

I heard about a kid that shook up an Anabolic Halo container and opened it...no one else has heard from him since. Word on the streets is he got so big so quick from inhaling the actives that he just exploded....

This is one of the most original comments I have read in a while! It was really hard to control my laughter! Cheers, bud! :thumbsup:

 

[papapumpsd]

There is a misconception in terms of available overhead to divert to clinical research in this respect - it is simply not there. If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. Those results would be negated not only from a popular standpoint, but recent studies have concluded significant funding biases exist both in the parameters and eventual outcome of a study. What, then, should be a companies resource for objective proof? Third party, unaffiliated research.

As for the concern about constructing research around supplement's affects on weight lifters - if only the world (well our world, more specifically) was that serene. As dsade alluded to, research is conducted primarily, though not exclusively, on compounds which may have a relevant pharmaceutical capacity i.e., can be synthesized, patented, and sold en masse. As weight lifters, we are not a lucrative, and therefore unnoticed, population in terms of clinical research; especially in respects to 'niche' ingredients.

If companies began diverting that much overhead to clinical R&D, you would not have supplements - period. Why is it that bulk products are so significantly lower than branded products? No logistical (employee salaries, marketing initiatives, shipping and processing, sourcing fees, extraction and manufacturing fees, lawyers, and so on) concerns. Unfortunately, funding your own clinical research is a massive whale of a logistical concern. If every supplement company began funding research, the $50 supplement being lamented would be an $80 supplement.

Personally, I feel quite confident in the objective clinical research - and critical engagement with the limitations of that research - behind our products. When asked, I readily provide evidence that correlates our products with their perceived affects in a real-world capacity. We feel we have chosen ingredients whose standardization and dosing are congruent with the suggested research models. This means extrapolating the mg/kg dosage used on rats, for example, to a relevant dose in our products. Unfortunately, this is not necessarily 'industry practice', which explains the failure of promising compounds in a real world application.

"If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. " <---I don't understand. Please clarify.

If I'm understanding some of the things you are saying correctly, how would you explain the millions of dollars put into B.S. advertising by supplement companies? Are you claiming that there isn't enough money in these companies to do "clinical studies" to generate real data to back up so many of these jerk-off claims?

I see professional BBers hyping products in well known magazines. I see t.v. ads as well. These aren't cheap forms of advertising.

 

[papapumpsd]

Yah it's hard to explain to people that yes there are good products and good companies, but they are these smaller lesser known guys. If they haven't heard of them they think that their products don't work. They just can't conceive of some small company has come up with something innovative. Well yah it's a little hard to believe I understand. The answer is if anybody asks, is that they're the only ones that are making an attempt. These other big companies pool all their resources on advertising.

See, we're getting off track a bit here I think. My original point was the there are WAY TOO many companies with products that carry outrageous claims (they are flat out LIES). Now, if these little guys want to be competitive, maybe they should gather some independent data on their product(s)? Wouldn't that be a novel idea now. WOW! A company actually providing data on how well their product works in living human beings.

This isn't rocket science here. It's providing supporting evidence of claims. OR, OR, OR, if the product doesn't work to the user's satisfaction, then give their money back. Don't be a prik about it....it didn't work, refund their money. And not some trashy, "fine print laden" guarantee either. Give the consumers SOME freaking confidence that your stuff works.

 

[ptdanny]

yea its sad that some companies spend more time and money on advertising and hype, then on their actual product.

One of my friends personally a few people who have done or continue to do advertising for products like these & almost none of them even take the product they are selling :[

 

[Mulletsoldier]

"If it were there, the funding source would completely negate any results that particular supplement manufacturer were privy to. " <---I don't understand. Please clarify.

The next statement clarified, and answers your question:

but recent studies have concluded significant funding biases exist both in the parameters and eventual outcome of a study. What, then, should be a companies resource for objective proof? Third party, unaffiliated research.

If I'm understanding some of the things you are saying correctly, how would you explain the millions of dollars put into B.S. advertising by supplement companies? Are you claiming that there isn't enough money in these companies to do "clinical studies" to generate real data to back up so many of these jerk-off claims?

I see professional BBers hyping products in well known magazines. I see t.v. ads as well. These aren't cheap forms of advertising.

Please read my entire statements:

To clarify, the supplement industry as it pertains to supermarket chain, infomercial, and mainstream health and nutritional supplements is a very large industry; in this specific respect (niche market ingredients, somewhat unpublished compounds, physique-altering/myotropic products) the market is somewhat small - at least smaller than many in this thread would assume.

Your grievances, while valid, are being vocalized to a minority of supplement owners, representatives, and employees, who most likely share the same views. The largest offenders in this respect - mass false advertising - are not represented on this board.

 

[sethroberts]

As a scientist, I am so turned off by the ridiculous advertising that goes on because I focus on the science and any data supporting the product. But, the fact is, if you don't use that kind of advertising, you lose sales to the people that do. The people that frequent these boards are well above average in terms of being informed. However, they are also in the vast minority. If I showed you two ads for the same product and one said "this product will increase you strength by 20% in 6 weeks" and the other said "EXPLOSIVE STRENGTH GAINS AFTER THE FIRST DOSE" which are you going to buy?

 

[Cellardude]

As a scientist, I am so turned off by the ridiculous advertising that goes on because I focus on the science and any data supporting the product. But, the fact is, if you don't use that kind of advertising, you lose sales to the people that do. The people that frequent these boards are well above average in terms of being informed. However, they are also in the vast minority. If I showed you two ads for the same product and one said "this product will increase you strength by 20% in 6 weeks" and the other said "EXPLOSIVE STRENGTH GAINS AFTER THE FIRST DOSE" which are you going to buy?

the first one :dance:

 

[sethroberts]

the first one :dance:

Same here, but what do you think the majority of 16-21 year olds will respond to? You also have to realize that most smaller companies are doing the advertising themselves with little budget when the big boys have mega bucks and either their own marketing department or an agency doing their ads. No doubt that the smaller companies look amateurish and resort to just throwing out hard hitting words.

 

[papapumpsd]

the first one :dance:

Yep...but I don't take product descriptions and ingredients lists for granted. If claims are made, I will attempt to see how the company backs them up. If they're stating numbers "X%, Xlbs, etc", I will look into how they derived such numbers.

Dumbazz claims like, "explosive strength gains after first dose" is worthless to me. If it's not a PH, it's NOT giving explosive strength gains (at least not "explosive" as I would expect). :aargh: