Soy Protein any one use?

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    Soy Protein any one use?


    Yo, I got a tub of soy protein from my buddy, I was wondering when the best time to use this stuff is, i use whey pre/post. Maybe before bed time? I donno let me know what you think

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    I've read studies that say that large amounts of soy protein can increase estrogen levels...or that it contains phytoestrogens that can mimic estrogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by delsolrob View Post
    I've read studies that say that large amounts of soy protein can increase estrogen levels...or that it contains phytoestrogens that can mimic estrogen.
    Yep that is true.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by delsolrob View Post
    I've read studies that say that large amounts of soy protein can increase estrogen levels...or that it contains phytoestrogens that can mimic estrogen.
    that's from excessive soy intake in any form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeN View Post
    that's from excessive soy intake in any form.
    Flax seed is said to be a phytoestrogen as well.
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    Unless you are female stay away from soy. Give it to a woman.
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    ++ - "large amounts of soy protein" are not necessary for the estrogenic properties of soy to show themselves, and it adds no benefit that cannot be had just as easily from other sources.

    BigBAMA has it right: give that tub (and its contents) to a lady-friend!
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    http://www.sover.net/~timw/soyvswhy.htm


    Source: Elite Fitness: Online Bodybuilding Magazine

    If you remember many years ago, weight gainers were the big thing and
    protein powders were out! Then, in like a storm came the "low calorie"
    weight gainers (yeah right!) and the criticism of the high calorie
    diet. Right after this came the inundation of whey protein. Here's the
    trend: promote something, then dispel it, promote it again, then
    dispel it. This way, the supplement companies always have something
    "new" to bring to the market. I predict that soon, there will be a
    resurgence in the high calorie diet. I'm sure it will be slightly
    modified, but a high calorie diet nonetheless.

    Most supplement companies do not really care what the truth about
    supplements really is -- they will promote what is "hot". Translation:
    what has the lowest production costs, and the greatest money-making
    potential. Back to protein powders -- is whey really the king protein?
    And are you getting what you pay for? The answer is that you've been
    misled again.

    In this issue of Elite Fitness News, we'll take a close look at whey
    protein and how it compares to other proteins -- soy protein in
    particular. We'll look at how in many ways it is not the superior
    protein that the bodybuilding magazines would lead you to believe.
    We'll look at the following:

    BV vs PDCAAS BV (Biological Value) vs PDCAAS (Protein Digestibility
    Corrected Amino Acid Score).
    A brief history of Soy-Protein Isolate.
    Soy Protein Isolate put to the Test
    Glutamine: Which protein has the most.
    Protein Concentrate vs. Protein Isolate
    Soy Protein Isolate for body-builders
    Soy Protein Isolate for Dieters
    The Health Benefits of Soy Isolate

    I guarantee that after reading this newsletter, you'll never look at
    proteins the same way again. I also guarantee that the information in
    this letter will save you money and help you get closer to finding the
    ultimate protein source for building a hard lean muscular physique.

    If you read any of the bodybuilding magazines for the last few years
    now, it is hard not to notice the concerted effort that the publishers
    have made to push whey protein as bodybuilding's superior protein
    source. You've seen the claims and the hype, "biological value of
    168--over 50% better that egg protein," "ion- exchanged," "richest
    source of glutamine," and the list goes on and on. What many
    bodybuilders do not realize, is that this hype is just that - hype.
    Much of what you have heard about whey's superiority as a protein
    source is just plain untrue. Let's take a closer look.

    Most people do not realize whey protein's humble origins. Originally,
    whey was a by-product of cheese production. Cheese is mostly fat and
    casein. In the cheese making process, whey was a left over by-product,
    and it was simply poured down the drain. Now, that was some time ago -
    back then, the manufacturers thought, wouldn't it be nice if we could
    find a way to sell the waste and make some money out of it. And the
    stuff was cheap as could be. Maybe they thought, "we'll sell it to
    bodybuilders! They'll eat (believe) anything." And the rest is
    history.

    History has repeated itself for the other sources of protein as well,
    when eggs were cheap, they were the preferred protein, now that they
    are not quite the bargain they once were, they are no longer in vogue.
    Later on, dairy subsidies made milk casein pricing more attractive, so
    it then became the star. Then along came whey, and you know the rest
    of the story.

    1. BV (Biological Value) vs PDCAAS Protein Digestibility Corrected
    Amino Acid Score).

    Several studies have been done to assess any differences in weight
    gain between individuals supplementing with whey protein, soy protein,
    or egg protein. SURPRISE, SURPRISE! There were NO differences
    whatsoever (statistically speaking) between the effectiveness of the
    proteins. Remember, all three of these proteins are designed to
    stimulate growth-- albeit in chicks, calves, etc. So, is one really
    better than another? Not according to the weight gained in the
    studies. Proponents of whey say that it has an ultra high BV
    (biological value), exceeding by far every other protein. One
    manufacturer even claims that their protein has a BV of 168-- over 50%
    better that egg protein!

    Scoring Protein by BV is the first area where the bodybuilding public
    is being deceived and manipulated. Elite Fitness has researched this
    topic rather thoroughly and has talked to experts in the field who
    work for the actual companies which manufacture and process the raw,
    bulk products. I have questioned several experts as to the quality of
    the various proteins and have found a few interesting facts. First and
    foremost, BV and PER (protein efficiency ratio) are OUTDATED. The
    newest and most accurate measurement of a protein's quality for a
    HUMAN is the PDCAAS--Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score.
    A mouthful I know, and yet it is the industry standard.

    According to the PDCAAS scale, whey is not necessarily the best
    protein. In fact, soy and whey are both considered a ONE (top score)
    on the scale. Does this mean that both of these proteins are equal?
    Not at all--I will discuss the pros and cons of each protein later in
    the article. What it does mean is that either will supply the BASIC
    BUILDING BLOCKS for muscle tissue growth and recuperation as well as
    the next one.

    2. A brief history of Soy-Protein Isolate.

    The first thing that I do when a consultation client asks me about Soy
    Isolate Deluxe protein is to ask them to forget whatever they have
    heard about soy protein. Soy has received a bad reputation in recent
    years because it is a protein source that comes entirely from
    soybeans. Since soy is derived from a plant source, it has been viewed
    as an inferior and incomplete protein. It also doesn't help that its
    two greatest consumers in the U.S. today are vegetarians and people
    with milk allergies such as lactose intolerance; not exactly the type
    of people you expect to see squatting 500-lbs reps at your local gym.

    Soy protein powders first came on the market as a food supplement
    around 20 years ago in the form of soy protein concentrate. At that
    time, soy protein concentrate was about 70% protein by weight. This
    protein was loaded with carbohydrates, sodium, and had a poor amino
    acid profile that made it inefficient for use as a quality muscle
    building supplement.

    The production and development of soy protein changed dramatically
    over the following decade with the introduction of isolation.
    Isolation is a method of extracting the soy protein from the beans and
    concentrating it to make it far more useful to the body than the old
    soy concentrate. This new product is called soy protein isolate and
    contained over 90% protein.

    3. Soy Protein Isolate put to the Test

    This new soy-protein isolate looked fantastic on paper. Imagine a food
    supplement that contains over 90% protein by weight with near zero
    amounts of carbohydrates and fats. In addition, soy-protein isolate
    could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost of other protein
    sources. This is due to the U.S. producing more than $15 billion worth
    of soybeans each year for use as foodstuffs for animals and humans.
    The biggest question however was how efficiently would your body use
    this soy-isolate as a protein source?

    In 1989, soy protein was put to the test to see how it stacked up
    against other proteins on a scale of protein quality. The most
    advanced protein-quality measurement scale is the Protein
    Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS). The highest PDCAAS
    score possible is 1.0. Any protein with a score of 1.0 is considered
    complete for use by the human body. Soy was tested along with egg
    white, casein (derivative of milk protein), beef, and a variety of
    beans to determine their PDCAAS rating. Soy-protein isolate, along
    with egg white, whey, and casein proteins, came back with a perfect
    1.0 score. Interestingly enough, beef scored only a .92 while kidney
    beans came in highest among the beans with a .68 rating.

    But what about hydrolization (breaking the proteins into smaller
    fractions like "di and tri peptides") couldn't this make whey into the
    superior product that it is supposed to be? What we found was that the
    hydrolyzed whey promotes less nitrogen retention than a similar
    non-hydrolyzed whey (a bad thing for a bodybuilder because a positive
    nitrogen balance is a must for anabolic muscle gain.) As a note: the
    hydrolyzed product that we studied was the BEST in the industry with a
    27% hydrolization, no bitter taste, and at a cost from the
    manufacturer of greater than $8.00 per pound! Rest assured, NO
    manufacturer is selling a whey product where the raw materials for the
    protein cost anywhere close to $8 per pound.

    Consider the above and you will quickly realize that supplement
    companies (who don't actually manufacture the whey but buy the raw
    product from an actual manufacturer) are telling "some fibs" about
    whey protein. BV of 168--ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS! Real whey manufacturers
    sometimes still use BV to grade protein, and they always rate whey
    protein as a 94 BV! When you see a 168 BV claim listed on the label of
    several manufacturers' whey protein, just turn your head, know you're
    being scammed, and absolutely don't buy!

    Now let's consider the other claims and statements about the di-and
    tri- peptides, about glutamine, and about the BCAAs (Branch Chain
    Amino Acids).

    If hydrolization doesn't further increase nitrogen retention, then
    what is the point of breaking protein into its smaller fractions like
    di- and tri- peptides? There IS a good reason for hydrolyzing a
    protein and having short peptides but it has nothing to do with
    BV/nitrogen retention. Instead, it has everything to do with how FAST
    and EASY the product is absorbed in the gut. Regular, undigested whey
    will be broken down into di- and tri-peptides via enzymes in a
    person's gut and will be absorbed as such. The caveat is that the
    whole process just takes a little longer. Hydrolyzed products are
    basically only useful in baby food or hospital situations where a
    person's digestive system is not functioning optimally or when protein
    delivery is needed very quickly.

    Is there any benefit of a hydrolyzed product for the bodybuilder? To
    tell you the truth, I would have to say NO -- except possibly for the
    benefit of having a quickly absorbed protein immediately after a
    workout to ensure the muscle tissue is flooded with nutrients in a
    timely manner albeit with a nitrogen penalty. Interestingly, this
    entire argument about hydrolized protein is academic as it is not
    currently sold on the market. Here's why. One, the cost of hydrolyzed
    whey is outrageous and two, its taste is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Trust
    me, if you're want to induce vomiting, just take a little hydrolyzed
    whey protein!

    4. Glutamine: Which protein has the most.

    Isn't the claim true about whey having significantly higher amounts of
    glutamine and BCAAs? Sorry, but NO! Whey does have the highest amounts
    of BCAAs of any protein but NOT SIGNIFICANTLY higher amounts. When it
    comes to the amounts of glutamine, soy beats whey hands down. For
    every 100 grams of protein, whey has 20.1 grams of BCAAs and 4.9 grams
    of glutamine. Maybe to your surprise, soy has 18.1 grams of BCAAs and
    a whopping 10.5 grams of glutamine! Again, we have been lied to and
    deceived.

    5. Protein Concentrate vs. Protein Isolate

    Most companies are selling whey protein concentrate (WPC) and saying
    that their product is whey protein isolate. Ion exchange protein
    really doesn't mean anything in terms of the quality of the protein
    powder as a whole! Any high quality, pure protein will be labeled an
    ISOLATE and this is what you MUST look for. A true ion-exchange
    process CAN yield a good isolate but it is not the only process
    available for getting a superior whey protein. An isolate will have
    very little fat and lactose and will be about 90% protein (the protein
    fractions are "isolated" from the rest of the material).

    On the other hand, a WPC made through protein filtration is vastly
    inferior to an isolate with about 7% fat and lactose and only 75%
    protein (The actual protein in WPC is usually pretty good, but who
    wants to deal with all of the fat and lactose?) Interestingly, WPC
    costs less than half of what an isolate costs. Unfortunately, both
    products look and taste about the same so it becomes very hard to know
    what you have--you basically have to trust the manufacturer
    (supplement company) of the particular product.

    Here's the picture--the industry through various articles in muscle
    magazines touts the benefits and characteristics of a whey protein
    ISOLATE and turns around and uses a CONCENTRATE. Tell me, who's the
    wiser? The supplement companies, that's who, and they're a whole lot
    richer to boot! Some manufacturers will put 98% WPC in their product
    and then put in 1% of a hydrolyzed product (remember this tastes
    horrible!) and 1% of an isolate. Then, they can legally claim all
    types of stuff on their label-- di and tri peptides, ion-exchange,
    blah, blah, blah!

    What about the other available proteins--egg, casein, and soy? How do
    these compare? First, let me state that all of the above proteins are
    decent if processed correctly. Each will provide the body very
    efficiently with the protein that it "needs". I would definitely stay
    away from casein and egg white. Casein has been shown to have
    detrimental effects on a person's cholesterol profile and egg white
    protein tastes poorly, is expensive, and consists of about 10%
    carbohydrates.

    Before you say it, I know your response--"That's all wonderful, but
    what is the best protein for me, a bodybuilder/weightlifter?" If you
    were to use any ONE protein source then I would have to say that it's
    a toss up between a soy isolate and a whey ISOLATE (you know, the one
    that no one can buy.) WPC provides a good protein; however the
    accompanying fat and carbs is something you do not want. If I had a
    choice, I would pick a soy isolate. A soy isolate is inexpensive, has
    the highest score on the PCDAAS, is very soluble if instantized, is
    extremely bland (a good thing), IMPROVES kidney function (unlike any
    other protein), is anticarcinogenic, is anti-estrogenic, lowers LDL
    (bad) and raises HDL (good) cholesterol, IMPROVES THYROID FUNCTION,
    etc, etc--the list goes on and on. But best of all, unlike whey
    isolate, pure soy isolates exist.

    6. Soy Protein Isolate benefits for Bodybuilders

    Animal research suggests some great advantages of using soy protein
    isolate as a bodybuilding supplement. Research has shown that the
    isoflavone daidzein found in soy-protein isolate might have a gender
    specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone production. Lab animals
    experienced testosterone and growth hormone excretion as well as
    muscle growth in males, while the female animals experienced a
    decrease in these hormones and fat loss.

    Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy that acts as a potent
    phyto-estrogen. It is structurally a very weak "pseudo-estrogen"
    (about 1000 times weaker than the body's primary estrogen estradiol).
    This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like
    daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for
    available receptor sites to "bind" to. By binding to the receptor
    sites daidzein then "blocks" the stronger estrogens from binding to
    and activating receptor sites. With the daidzein isolflavone attached,
    estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further
    minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body. Many
    researchers believe this effect is the reason soy protein is linked to
    a reduction in the risk for many forms of breast, endometrial, and
    prostate cancer. This mechanism works similarly to the prescription
    drug Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)--an anti-estrogen staple in the
    bodybuilding community.

    Research also indicates that the soy-protein isolates may reduce
    nitrogen loss and keep you in a positive nitrogen balance to better
    facilitate muscle growth. The human body can only repair and build
    muscles when it has a positive nitrogen balance.
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    Of particular interest to the bodybuilder is Soy Isolates high
    concentration of the amino acids glutamine and arginine. These two
    aminos are extremely important to a body builder for their ability to
    release growth hormone, aid in immune system functions, and for their
    ability to speed muscle cell recovery.

    Glutamine (per 100g)

    Soy
    10.5g

    Milk Protein
    8.8g

    Whey
    4.9g

    Many bodybuilders understand the importance of the essential amino
    acid L- glutamine to their muscle building supplementation. What many
    bodybuilders don't
    know is that soy protein isolate has the highest concentration of
    glutamine among protein sources-over twice that of whey protein! (7)
    Glutamine has been used for years in hospitals to speed muscle cell
    recovery and improve maintenance of muscle mass during periods of
    starvation, infection, and exercise trauma. ( Glutamine
    supplementation has been shown to promote muscle glycogen
    accumulation, which has been linked to an increase in muscle protein
    synthesis. (10) Glutamine has also shown the ability to increase
    muscle cell volume through the process of cellular hydration. (11)
    Glutamine supplementation in as little as 2 grams per day has been
    shown to increase plasma growth hormone levels. This increase in
    growth hormone has been shown to help shift the fuel for muscle from
    glucose to fatty acids. (9) Research has suggested that a bodybuilder
    should consume between 8 - 15 grams of glutamine each day.
    Supplementing 3-5 grams of glutamine 3 times per day has been shown to
    elicit a positive response without stimulating the excretion of
    glutamine in the urine.

    Arginine (per 100g)

    Soy
    7.6g

    Beef
    6.3g

    Egg
    5.8g

    Cassein
    3.7g

    Whey
    2.9g

    L-Arginine is another important amino acid with respects to body
    building. Arginine plays several roles in the body such as fighting
    mental and physical fatigue, but its
    main job is to assist with growth. This amino acid promotes the
    release of two highly anabolic hormones, insulin and growth hormone.
    Arginine promotes gains further by assisting in recovery from post
    workout muscle trauma through its ability to speed tissue healing.
    This amino acid aids in the detoxification of the liver by removing
    ammonium from the body. Arginine has also shown the ability to lower
    LDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood. Arginine is used
    in the medical treatment of angina, congestive heart failure, male
    infertility and wound healing. Soy isolate protein contains higher
    amounts of this important amino acid than any other protein source.

    As a hard training bodybuilder, your body needs protein every 2 -2 1/2
    hours even if you may not think you need it. The human body does not
    store protein long term as it does for fat and carbohydrates. Instead,
    your body holds amino acids in three pools that provide the body's
    necessary protein for fuel. These pools are constantly in a state of
    flux and are replenished either from dietary protein or the breakdown
    of muscle. It is extremely important to keep these amino acid pools
    topped off through the feeding of protein every 2 - 2 1/2 hours. When
    feeding stops, there is a fall in protein synthesis and a rise in
    protein breakdown. This translates into a loss of lean body mass after
    extended periods without protein.

    7. Soy Protein Isolate for Dieters

    For years, bodybuilding gurus have recommended the use of soy protein
    for pre-contest bodybuilders who need to shed body fat while keeping
    as much lean muscle as possible. Normally when the body is forced into
    a low calorie diet program, it reacts by slowing down your metabolic
    rate. This will make it increasingly more difficult to lose body fat.
    Soy-protein isolate helps lessen this effect through several different
    pathways. First, soy-protein isolate has been found to enhance
    endogenous production of thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), thyroxin
    (T4), and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroxin is the main player in the
    regulation of your metabolic rate. The more thyroxin you have the
    faster your metabolism will be. A faster metabolism insures that more
    of the food you eat will be used as fuel and less will be stored as
    fat, an important advantage to any dieter.

    Another way soy accelerates fat loss is with its unique concentration
    of amino acids. Soy-protein isolate has the highest concentration of
    amino acids in what is called the "critical cluster". This cluster of
    amino acids contains the three branch chain amino acids (BCAA's) and
    two essential aminos - glutamine and arginine. These critical amino
    acids help a bodybuilder spare muscle while losing body fat during a
    pre-contest diet. Any time you diet, your body tries to break down
    muscle glycogen in an effort to provide the body with more calories.
    In fact, your body will often try to use broken down muscle for fuel
    before it uses stored body fat. This is called muscle catabolism or
    muscle breakdown. These three branch chain amino acids are the first
    amino acids that are used for fuel when your body begins muscle
    catabolism. If you have a high amount of these branch chain amino
    acids in your diet, your body will first use these for fuel before it
    breaks down your stored muscle.


    8. The Health Benefits of Soy Isolate

    Now that we know that soy is a quality protein source, what health
    benefits can soy protein bring to its consumer? The intake of soyfoods
    has long been associated with a reduced risk for certain cancers.
    Research has suggested that phytic acid and protease inhibitors, two
    of the nonnutritive compounds in soybeans, contribute to the observed
    anticarcinogenic effects of consuming soy. (1) Residents of the United
    States and the United Kingdom, as a whole, consume the smallest
    amounts of soyfoods but have the highest instances of breast and
    prostate cancer. Japanese residents in comparison are the largest
    consumers of soyfoods and have the lowest instances of these cancers.
    (3) Researchers point to the isoflavones genistein and daidzein, which
    are found exclusively in soy and soy protein isolate, as the major
    components behind soy's anti-carcinogenic effects.(2)

    Soy protein isolate has shown the ability to promote bone health,
    which in turn aids in the prevention of Osteoporosis. Osteoporosis is
    a chronic disease characterized by a decrease in bone density, which
    results in abnormally porous and fragile bones. It has been suggested
    that a high protein diet may increase the excretion of calcium in the
    urine, which can lead to this health condition. Studies have shown
    that not all proteins have the same effect on calcium excretion.
    Compared with animal protein, soy does not result in an increased loss
    of calcium in the urine thus promoting a more optimal calcium balance.
    (4) In addition, the isoflavones in soy protein have been shown to
    increase both bone mineral content and bone mineral density which will
    improve the health of abnormally porous bones.(5)

    Soy protein isolate has shown the ability to effectively lower LDL
    cholesterol and triglyceride levels in the blood. Experts agree that
    these cholesterol-lowering effects can be achieved through the
    consumption of as little as 25 grams of soy isolate protein each day.
    The experts point to the high levels of the amino acid arginine for
    this lipid lowering effect. (6) LDL cholesterol is one of the primary
    factors behind progressive atherosclerosis. This medical condition is
    caused by the progressive build up of plaque that clogs blood flow in
    the arteries.

    Soy protein has also shown the ability to improve kidney function.
    While scientists agree that the high protein intake of bodybuilders is
    necessary for proper muscle building and repair, they also agree that
    this diet will place additional stress on the kidneys. Studies of both
    humans and animals have shown that soy proteins filter more easily in
    the kidneys thereby reducing their workload. In 1993, a study was
    performed on the Romanian Olympic swimming and rowing teams. In this
    study, the athletes were supplemented with 1.5 grams per kg of
    bodyweight of soy protein along with their dietary protein (2 grams
    per kg of bodyweight) per day. This additional protein showed no
    detrimental effects on kidney function and actually showed from 5 to
    46 percent improvement in kidney function.

    Also another thing people have said with out any backing of any medical journals is the interference of amino acids in the soy while taking medication. To this date there is no sound science to support those claims.


    References

    (1)(2) Messina M, Messina V. Increasing use of soyfoods and their
    potential role in cancer prevention. J Am Diet Assoc 1991;91:836-840

    (3) American Cancer Society. Cancer Facts & Figures-1996.

    (4)(5)(6)Ross PD. osteoporosis: Frequency, consequences and risk
    factors. Archives of Internal Med 1996's 156.1399-1411.

    (7)((9) Bulus, N., Pysysiological Importance of Glutamine.
    Metabolism Vol.38, No.8, August 1989.

    (10)(11) Parry-Billings, M. Effects of changes in cell volume on the
    rates of glutamine and alanine release from rat skeletal muscle in
    vitro. Biomedical Journal, 276, 1991.
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    I'll see your "Elite" fitness, and raise you an AM:

    Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food

    Soy IS estrogenic: *any* bodybuilder old enough to have their natural test levels ramp down is fighting a constant battle against the rise of estrogen. IMO there are NO benefits to soy that are not rendered meaningless by the simple fact that estrogen must be strictly controlled.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    I'll see your "Elite" fitness, and raise you an AM:

    Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food

    Soy IS estrogenic: *any* bodybuilder old enough to have their natural test levels ramp down is fighting a constant battle against the rise of estrogen. IMO there are NO benefits to soy that are not rendered meaningless by the simple fact that estrogen must be strictly controlled.

    I consume soy protein and my normal free testosterone level is 0.3 to 2 pg/mL.
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    and your age is...?

    Not trying to tussle w/ ya, bro - different strokes & all that: I'm still dealing w/ VAT accumulated during an illness, and I've been struggling to get estrogen/aromatase under control & rebuild normal test levels. The article I linked is the thing that got me thinking about soy in a different way, and it's been a helpful/productive way of looking at it *for me*...and I suspect would be for anyone who ended up similarly.
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    I don't trust it, I never liked how those vegetarians looked
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    The only people I know that use it are vegetarians, but I only know that because they bring it up. Personally I limit my soy intake because of the estrogenic properties I've read about , and the possibilities it has to interfere with testosterone in males.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theBIGcactus View Post
    Yo, I got a tub of soy protein from my buddy, I was wondering when the best time to use this stuff is, i use whey pre/post. Maybe before bed time? I donno let me know what you think
    Never...
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    I heard Jay Cutler was a vegetarian and only used soy, Oh wait that was he only used Dat Dere Celltech.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    and your age is...?

    Not trying to tussle w/ ya, bro - different strokes & all that: I'm still dealing w/ VAT accumulated during an illness, and I've been struggling to get estrogen/aromatase under control & rebuild normal test levels. The article I linked is the thing that got me thinking about soy in a different way, and it's been a helpful/productive way of looking at it *for me*...and I suspect would be for anyone who ended up similarly.

    I am 24 years of age.
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    Despite the influence of the whey-lobby, supplementation with soy protein has been shown to neither reduce serum testosterone levels nor inhibit lean mass. As a matter of fact, a soy-whey combination is more effective than a whey-only or soy-only alternative, in terms of hormone modulation. You might want to see the following recent (2007) study published in the Journal of the International Association of Sports Nutrition: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1997115

    J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4: 4.
    Published online 2007 July 23. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-4-4.

    PMCID: PMC1997115
    Copyright © 2007 Kalman et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.

    Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones

    Douglas Kalman,corresponding author1 Samantha Feldman,1 Michele Martinez,1 Diane R Krieger,1 and Mark J Tallon1
    1Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA

    corresponding authorCorresponding author.
    Douglas Kalman: dkalman@miamiresearch.com; Samantha Feldman: sfeldman@miamiresearch.com; Michele Martinez: michele@diethealthsolutions.co m; Diane R Krieger: drkrieger@miamiresearch.com; Mark J Tallon: oxygenix2004@aol.com
    Received June 14, 2007; Accepted July 23, 2007.

    Abstract

    Background
    Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.

    Methods
    For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.

    Results
    Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).

    Conclusion
    This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
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    Heck yes. I can keep using my soy!

    Note: 200 posts! Yay
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    Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer. Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+) (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones); or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones). For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement. Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone, sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione, androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and free testosterone concentrations by RIA. Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR) and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry. At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR expression but did not alter estrogen receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones. Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and androstenedione concentrations, and tended to suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is uncertain, these data show that AR expression in the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing prostate cancer.

    PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Department of Anatomy, Physiology and Pharmacology, 109 Greene Hall, Auburn University, Auburn, Alabama 36849, USA. akingbt@auburn.edu

    The use of soy-based products in the diet of infants has raised concerns regarding the reproductive toxicity of genistein and daidzein, the predominant isoflavones in soybeans with estrogenic activity. Time-bred Long-Evans dams were fed diets containing 0, 5, 50, 500, or 1000 ppm of soy isoflavones from gestational d 12 until weaning at d 21 postpartum. Male rats in all groups were fed soy-free diets from postnatal d 21 until 90 d of age. The mean +/- SD concentration of unconjugated (i.e. biologically active) genistein and daidzein in serum from the group of dams maintained on the diet containing the highest amount of isoflavones (1000 ppm) were 17 +/- 27 and 56 +/- 30 nM, respectively, at d 21 postpartum. The concentrations were considerably greater in male offspring (genistein: 73 +/- 46 nM; daidzein: 106 +/- 53 nM). Although steroidogenesis was decreased in individual Leydig cells, male rats from the highest exposure group (1000 ppm diet) exhibited elevated serum levels of the sex steroid hormones androsterone at 21 d (control: 15 +/- 1.5 vs.28 +/- 3.5 ng/ml; P < 0.05) and testosterone at 90 d of age (control: 7.5 +/- 1 vs.17 +/- 2 ng/ml; P < 0.05). Testosterone secretion by immature Leydig cells, isolated from 35-d-old male rats, decreased on exposure to 0.1 nm genistein in vitro (control: 175 +/- 5 vs. 117 +/- 3 ng/10(6) cells per 24 h; P < 0.05), indicative of direct phytoestrogen action. Thus, phytoestrogens have the ability to regulate Leydig cells, and additional studies to assess potential adverse effects of dietary soy-based products on reproductive tract development in neonates are warranted.
    PMID: 17569756 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Department of Medicine, University of Medicine and Dentistry
    of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-2681, USA. goodin@umdnj.edu

    PURPOSE: To determine if a commonly used soy protein supplement exhibits biological activity in vivo and in vitro, we evaluated an over-the-counter soy protein powder supplement using blood from healthy male volunteers and in an estrogen receptor in vitro assay. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We recruited healthy male volunteers 18 years of age or older that were in good health. Treatment consisted of consuming two scoops (56 g) of pure soy protein powder (Puritan's Pride, Oakdale, NY) daily for 28 days. Serum testosterone and luteinizing hormone (LH) levels were collected on days -7, 0, 14, and 28 of therapy, and day 42. A reporter estrogen receptor (ER) assay was used to determine the effect on ER-beta and ER-alpha in vitro. RESULTS: Twelve subjects were enrolled with a mean age of 32.25 years (range 25 to 47). Serum testosterone decreased 19%(+/-22%) during the 4-week use of soy protein powder (P = 0.021) and increased within 2 weeks after we discontinued soy protein powder. Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). Soy protein powder was found to induce agonist activity to ER-beta using a reporter estrogen receptor assay in yeast. CONCLUSION: Soy protein powder decreases serum testosterone levels in healthy men and acts as an ER-beta agonist; the significance of this biological effect with respect to cancer prevention needs further study.

    PMID: 17416779 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12;
    Department of Medicine, University of Medicine and Dentistry
    of New Jersey/Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, New Brunswick, NJ , USA. goodin@umdnj.edu

    ...

    Serum LH concentrations decreased during the 4-week use of soy protein powder then increased within 2 weeks after we stopped the soy protein powder, but the changes did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.20). ...
    ...................
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12;
    Department of Anatomy, Physiology and Pharmacology, 109 Greene Hall, Auburn University, Auburn, Alabama 36849, USA. akingbt@auburn.edu
    ...Although steroidogenesis was decreased in individual Leydig cells, male rats from the highest exposure group (1000 ppm diet) exhibited elevated serum levels of the sex steroid hormones androsterone at 21 d (control: 15 +/- 1.5 vs.28 +/- 3.5 ng/ml; P < 0.05) and testosterone at 90 d of age (control: 7.5 +/- 1 vs.17 +/- 2 ng/ml; P < 0.05). ...
    ...............
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12;
    Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.

    ....Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and androstenedione concentrations, and tended to suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is uncertain..
    The conclusion here is far from admissible.
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    Haha, well if your are going to argue with stragpedia, its an uphill battle, actually it is like trying live without breathing. LOL. How mch soy do you use strag?
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    The conclusion here is far from admissible.
    Yes, but there is enough evidence present for me to stay away from using large amounts of soy. I do feel, however that soy in small amounts in a mixture of whey and milk is OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Despite the influence of the whey-lobby, supplementation with soy protein has been shown to neither reduce serum testosterone levels nor inhibit lean mass. As a matter of fact, a soy-whey combination is more effective than a whey-only or soy-only alternative, in terms of hormone modulation. You might want to see the following recent (2007) study published in the Journal of the International Association of Sports Nutrition: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1997115

    J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4: 4.
    Published online 2007 July 23. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-4-4.

    PMCID: PMC1997115
    Copyright © 2007 Kalman et al; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.

    Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones

    Douglas Kalman,corresponding author1 Samantha Feldman,1 Michele Martinez,1 Diane R Krieger,1 and Mark J Tallon1
    1Miami Research Associates, Nutrition/Endocrinology Division, Miami, Florida, USA

    corresponding authorCorresponding author.
    Douglas Kalman: dkalman@miamiresearch.com; Samantha Feldman: sfeldman@miamiresearch.com; Michele Martinez: michele@diethealthsolutions.co m; Diane R Krieger: drkrieger@miamiresearch.com; Mark J Tallon: oxygenix2004@aol.com
    Received June 14, 2007; Accepted July 23, 2007.

    Abstract

    Background
    Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.

    Methods
    For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.

    Results
    Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 ± 1.1 and 0.9 ± 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (-9.1 ± 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).

    Conclusion
    This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
    This study is hard to interpret because some of the subjects were also consuming whey protein with the soy. How do we know if was the soy and not the whey that kept the serum testosterone normal. Also, this study reinforces the benefit of Whey due to the fact that it decreased estradiol.
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    another study on the anti-androgen effects of soy. Yes, at the end of the study, testosterone was increased, but only because DHT was decreased.

    Soy protein isolates of varying isoflavone content exert minor effects on serum reproductive hormones in healthy young men.


    Dillingham BL, McVeigh BL, Lampe JW, Duncan AM.
    Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada.

    Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men. Thirty-five men consumed milk protein isolate (MPI), low-isoflavone soy protein isolate (SPI) (low-iso SPI; 1.64 +/- 0.19 mg isoflavones/d), and high-iso SPI (61.7 +/- 7.35 mg isoflavones/d) for 57 d each in a randomized crossover design. Twenty-four-hour urine samples indicated that urinary isoflavones were significantly increased by the high-iso SPI relative to the low-iso SPI and MPI. Serum collected on d 1, 29, and 57 of each treatment revealed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and DHT/testosterone were significantly decreased by the low-iso SPI [9.4% (P = 0.036) and 9.0% (P = 0.004), respectively] and the high-iso SPI [15% (P = 0.047) and 14% (P = 0.013), respectively], compared with the MPI at d 57. Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI (P = 0.023) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.020) at d 29; an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 29 (P = 0.001) and relative to the MPI (P = 0.0003) and high-iso SPI (P = 0.005) at d 57; and increases in estradiol and estrone by the low-iso SPI relative to the MPI at d 57 (P = 0.010 and P = 0.005, respectively). In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones, providing evidence for some effects of soy protein on hormones. The relevance of the magnitude of these effects to future prostate cancer risk requires further investigation.


    Nutr Cancer. 2002;42(2):206-10.
    Related Articles, Links

    Regulation of male sex hormone levels by soy isoflavones in rats. Yi MA, Son HM, Lee JS, Kwon CS, Lim JK, Yeo YK, Park YS, Kim JS.
    Department of Animal Science and Biotechnology, Kyungpook National University, Taegu 702-701, South Korea.

    Several studies have suggested that soybean intake is associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer. However, the mechanism of prostate cancer prevention by soybeans remains unclear. Because prostate cancer is reported to have an association with an increased level of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and soybean isoflavones are known to inhibit 5 alpha-reductase, which is involved in the conversion of testosterone to DHT, the effects of soybean extract and isoflavones on the plasma levels of male sex hormones were investigated using male rats. In Experiment I, Sprague-Dawley rats were fed diets with and without soy flour; in Experiment II, rats were fed diets containing 2% soy methanol extract or 0.2% semipurified isoflavones or a control diet. The study showed a reduction of plasma DHT along with an increase in total plasma androgen in rats fed soy flour or semipurified isoflavones for 1 wk. These results suggest that soy isoflavone intake may reduce plasma DHT level.
    PMID: 12416261 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMyth;
    ... How mch soy do you use strag?
    Quite an intensive avatar you have, Myth!

    My protein shake is a whey-soy combination. About 50% each way. Depending on my protein intake from other sources, I can do about 100g (=50g whey and 50g soy) daily.
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    Nice side effect for women


    Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome Associated with Increased
    Soy Intake
    Alison Amsterdam, MD, Nadeem Abu-Rustum, MD, Jeanne Carter, PhD, and
    Michael Krychman, MD
    All Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center—Surgery, Division of Gynecology, New York, NY, USA
    Corresponding Author:
    Alison Amsterdam, MD, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center—Surgery, Division of
    Gynecology, 1275 York Avenue MRI-1007B New York, New York 10021, USA. Tel: (212) 639-2000; Fax: (212) 717-3879;
    E-mail: amsterda@mskcc.org
    A B S T R A C T
    Introduction.
    Persistent sexual arousal syndrome is an uncommon sexual complaint. Patients with
    this disorder can be distressed by the escalation of tension in the pelvic region and the prevailing
    necessity to diminish the pressure by self-stimulation. Patients frequently suffer from guilt or shame
    and often do not seek medical care. There are many potential causes of this disorder; however, a
    definitive etiology has yet to be elucidated.
    Case.
    The patient is a 44-year-old female who presented to her gynecologist for evaluation of
    dysmenorrhea and menometrorrhagia. During the review of systems, the patient reported 5–
    6 months of increased pelvic tension, not associated with an increase in desire that required her to
    self-stimulate to orgasm approximately 15 times daily. Upon further inquiry, the patient disclosed
    that her dietary regimen included soy intake in excess of 4 pounds per day that began approximately
    1 month prior to the onset of symptoms.
    Results.
    Treatment consisted of supportive counseling and dietary modification. At the 3-month
    follow-up visit, the patient’s menstrual difficulties and sexual complaints resolved.
    Conclusions.
    Although no known cause or cure of persistent sexual arousal syndrome has been
    identified to date, the success of reducing dietary of phytoestrogens in this patient may provide
    insight into the etiology of the disorder and suggest potential treatments.
    Key Words.
    Female Persistent Sexual Arousal Syndrome; Female Causes and Treatment of Orgasmic
    Disorders; Female Modification of Reversible Causes
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Quite an intensive avatar you have, Myth!

    My protein shake is a whey-soy combination. About 50% each way. Depending on my protein intake from other sources, I can do about 100g (=50g whey and 50g soy) daily.
    Curious strat. How come not use a whey/casein mix? I have nothing against soy in limited amounts (although don't use it since I don't go out of my way to purchase it) but it seems with the casein you will get the beneficial slow release of AA (or even a soy casein mix).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde12;
    This study is hard to interpret because some of the subjects were also consuming whey protein with the soy. How do we know if was the soy and not the whey that kept the serum testosterone normal. Also, this study reinforces the benefit of Whey due to the fact that it decreased estradiol.
    The idea was to figure out if whey alone, soy alone, or a whey-soy combination was more effective from an anabolic point of view. If you take your time to read the entire study (via the link), you will realize that the soy-whey combination turned out superior to whey alone and soy alone. If soy were complete crap, that conclusion would not have emerged. And, if whey-only were the best of the best, then the whey-soy combination would not have turned out better than pure whey.

    I usually try to avoid such arguments where people form their opinions based mostly on word-of-mouth and weak anecdotal evidence. I have been using whey-soy since more than half a decade. If soy were truly "feminizing", I would not have anything close to my current physique.

    Just like the whey-only lobby, I am a die-hard whey-soy user and have no intention of dropping soy from the mix. The whey/soy discussion always reminds me of the prejudice against fenugreek. Few realize it has many more potent steriodal saponins and testosterone precursors than tribulus, not to mention its positive impact on luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone. Even fewer appreciate the insulin-mimicking property of its 4-hydroxy-isoleucine (4-HIL), and so on. I use fenugreek extracted for steriodal saponins and 4-HIL, irrespective of the tribulus preference of many.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCCFan023;
    Curious strat. How come not use a whey/casein mix? I have nothing against soy in limited amounts (although don't use it since I don't go out of my way to purchase it) but it seems with the casein you will get the beneficial slow release of AA (or even a soy casein mix).
    Casein is fine. No doubt. If you use casein, then you may not need a frequent use of protein shake. I can take a whey-soy combination, in principle, every three or so hours. With casein, the frequency would be less. There is no qualitative loss. If I want to take a slow protein, I prefer egg white. It delivers all the standard goodies. In addition, it is by far the best definition protein around. Lean, dry muscles at their best!
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Casein is fine. No doubt. If you use casein, then you may not need a frequent use of protein shake. I can take a whey-soy combination, in principle, every three or so hours. With casein, the frequency would be less. There is no qualitative loss. If I want to take a slow protein, I prefer egg white. It delivers all the standard goodies. In addition, it is by far the best definition protein around. Lean, dry muscles at their best!

    Yea I typically use a whey/casein mix (or just whey with cottage cheese) as my pre workout meal (about 1-1.5 hours prior) since its a lengthy time to training and also my training is above average in length.

    My favorite custom mix from True Protein is 33% of Whey Isolate, Casein, and Egg White protein (only reason it isn't a staple is it is pricey). IMO that is pinnacle for my protein supplementation. I definitely (as does the majority on here) have nutrient overlaps between meals due to my meal frequency.

    I'll leave ya alone now though and let ya get back to your guys soy discussion.
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    cool thanks for the input
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    lol. Just saw this commercial and I auto thought of this thread.

    YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
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    oh, that's *GREAT*!!

    "Thanks", I needed that....
    Last edited by BodyWizard; 05-13-2008 at 01:00 AM. Reason: oops...
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    Yeah, good one.
  

  
 

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