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    Quote Originally Posted by gibbob2 View Post
    wow, am I the only one looking at this thinking it'a a bit immature? I think this sets in stone the fact that I will never buy a designer supplement product. I don;t even know what the hell you guys are talkign about, but even I can tell that you are going back and forth. Perhaps you BOTH have good supplements?

    E L E

    neither are arguing which has better supps they have respect for each other in that aspect. they are just debating the science of compounds. just read and learn something instead of trying to turn this debate in to an argument.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by grila jujitsu View Post
    neither are arguing which has better supps they have respect for each other in that aspect. they are just debating the science of compounds. just read and learn something instead of trying to turn this debate in to an argument.

    Thanks
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    Good Call. Lots of good info....a must read
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebo View Post
    PP is selling products by and saying it is so much better than LX when there is no science to back it up.

    I never said PS was so much better than LX. To be fair, LX has a combination of ingredients which make it a totally different kind of product – it really is like comparing apples and oranges.

    I posted research that shows DHEA metabolites suppress testosterone production (7oxo which is related to 7OH and 5AT). Any educated member can refute these claims, but science is science and this is what the research shows, whether Designer Supps likes it or not.

    Designer Supps keeps crying BS, but posts no relevant research to support his stance. At this point I think we are beating a dead horse.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squires View Post
    There is nothing wrong with free products. What makes all this interesting is after gibbob2 shows support for PP, joebo comes in to support DS. All perfectly fine. However, when it is shown that joebo has a biased opinion, he responds with
    "I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies."
    Which is obviously untrue, shown by his comment 35 minutes earlier.

    But all this is in good fun, so who really cares?
    I obviously don't post negative if the product works, but I was trying to get across that I have recieved product for free to test which didn't live up to what it should have and in return I've posted my honest feedback which was negative for the product. It has nothing to do with DS or PP. I honestly could care less about either company, but moreso about the products they create. I have no loyalty to any company. if you make a good product I will purchase it. I do however believe DS to have a very deep background in the sciences and not knowing much about PP, I would tend to trust DS before PP. Who is ultimately right, I don't know.

    On a side note, if you believe I have a biased opinion towards any company because they will provide a free bottle of product to log, then you might as well disregard most members on this board as most have participated in sponsored logs, so in turn we have a board of biased members.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebo View Post
    I obviously don't post negative if the product works, but I was trying to get across that I have recieved product for free to test which didn't live up to what it should have and in return I've posted my honest feedback which was negative for the product. It has nothing to do with DS or PP. I honestly could care less about either company, but moreso about the products they create. I have no loyalty to any company. if you make a good product I will purchase it. I do however believe DS to have a very deep background in the sciences and not knowing much about PP, I would tend to trust DS before PP. Who is ultimately right, I don't know.

    On a side note, if you believe I have a biased opinion towards any company because they will provide a free bottle of product to log, then you might as well disregard most members on this board as most have participated in sponsored logs, so in turn we have a board of biased members.
    very well said joebo. I'm with you Im not on any companies side. I do understand Ps is a great compound. I also understand Lean extreme is as well. Both lower cortisol and lean xtreme has some other compounds that increase fat burning and testosterone, like . From my understanding the studies show a eight percent decrease in test levels from TRANSDermal, not oral. Eight percent is basically nothing and the eight percent could be from anything. ie the guys may have not gotten enough sleep, or been exposed to lawn moving chemicals, etc many other factors. regardless eight percent did not come from the oral use and only the tub on use , is my understanding correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    very well said joebo. I'm with you Im not on any companies side. I do understand Ps is a great compound. I also understand Lean extreme is as well. Both lower cortisol and lean xtreme has some other compounds that increase fat burning and testosterone, like . From my understanding the studies show a eight percent decrease in test levels from TRANSDermal, not oral. Eight percent is basically nothing and the eight percent could be from anything. ie the guys may have not gotten enough sleep, or been exposed to lawn moving chemicals, etc many other factors. regardless eight percent did not come from the oral use and only the tub on use , is my understanding correct?
    It was an 8% drop from oral use and a 12-15% drop from transdermal use.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibbob2 View Post
    wow, am I the only one looking at this thinking it'a a bit immature? I think this sets in stone the fact that I will never buy a designer supplement product. I don;t even know what the hell you guys are talkign about, but even I can tell that you are going back and forth. Perhaps you BOTH have good supplements?

    E L E

    Your loss, DS is only defending his products, it was Primordial who bashed Lean Xtreme in the first place.


    Designer Supplements has brought more innovation and knowledge to the supplement industry than many more of the bigger companies. Who was the first to use 7oh? TTA? Superdrol? I could go on and on but you get the point.
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    I believe one should judge the effectiveness of products based on whether or not the matrix of compounds deliver the results the manufacturers claimed they would. From this perspective, the length of time a company has been around is secondary, not irrelevant; just secondary. Every (successful) company was once a start-up. Designer Supplements and Primordial Performance, to mention just the two involved in this thread, have excellent products in their line-up. I have stacked Activate Xtreme and Lean Xtreme several times and liked the results a lot. I have also used Endo-AMP, Toco-8, and Sustain Alpha, and was very pleased with the results. And will use them again in after Dermacrine. Furthermore, Lean Xtreme and Endo-AMP, even though their benefits intersect in some areas, are still completely different products and were meant to serve different purposes.
    So, while this thread may be entertaining to some, the arguments lose intellectual power and the exchanges get more circular as the thread extends. No one really emerges as a winner in such hostile forum exchanges. On the contrary! So, let things be and just move on! Or ignore my post!
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    I believe one should judge the effectiveness of products based on whether or not the matrix of compounds deliver the results the manufacturers claimed they would. From this perspective, the length of time a company has been around is secondary, not irrelevant; just secondary. Every (successful) company was once a start-up. Designer Supplements and Primordial Performance, to mention just the two involved in this thread, have excellent products in their line-up. I have stacked Activate Xtreme and Lean Xtreme several times and liked the results a lot. I have also used Endo-AMP, Toco-8, and Sustain Alpha, and was very pleased with the results. And will use them again in after Dermacrine. Furthermore, Lean Xtreme and Endo-AMP, even though their benefits intersect in some areas, are still completely different products and were meant to serve different purposes.
    So, while this thread may be entertaining to some, the arguments lose intellectual power and the exchanges get more circular as the thread extends. No one really emerges as a winner in such hostile forum exchanges. On the contrary! So, let things be and just move on! Or ignore my post!
    I agree... but the debates about the science is what it is all about. I enjoy the heated discussions about product. Get Diesel comes to mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    I never said PS was so much better than LX. To be fair, LX has a combination of ingredients which make it a totally different kind of product – it really is like comparing apples and oranges.

    I posted research that shows DHEA metabolites suppress testosterone production (7oxo which is related to 7OH and 5AT). Any educated member can refute these claims, but science is science and this is what the research shows, whether Designer Supps likes it or not.

    Designer Supps keeps crying BS, but posts no relevant research to support his stance. At this point I think we are beating a dead horse.

    -Pp
    You did when a persona asked if they should stop using LX to use PS instead. You did when you post lies about compounds you know nothing about.

    You posted research that shows TRANSDERMAL 7OXO can effect testosterone production. Transdermal delivery is not the same as oral. The studies you posted were refuted when I posted multiple studies showing that they cannot bind the AR, are not anabolic nor androgenic and do not convert into anything anabolic, androgenic.

    5AT and 7OH are not 7OXO, regardless if they are related or not. Estrogen is related to Testosterone and neither act the same. Both are related to Cholesterol and none act the same.

    I have posted tons of relevant research, of which you have no response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    very well said joebo. I'm with you Im not on any companies side. I do understand Ps is a great compound. I also understand Lean extreme is as well. Both lower cortisol and lean xtreme has some other compounds that increase fat burning and testosterone, like . From my understanding the studies show a eight percent decrease in test levels from TRANSDermal, not oral. Eight percent is basically nothing and the eight percent could be from anything. ie the guys may have not gotten enough sleep, or been exposed to lawn moving chemicals, etc many other factors. regardless eight percent did not come from the oral use and only the tub on use , is my understanding correct?
    Absolutely correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    You did when a persona asked if they should stop using LX to use PS instead. You did when you post lies about compounds you know nothing about.

    You posted research that shows TRANSDERMAL 7OXO can effect testosterone production. Transdermal delivery is not the same as oral. The studies you posted were refuted when I posted multiple studies showing that they cannot bind the AR, are not anabolic nor androgenic and do not convert into anything anabolic, androgenic.

    5AT and 7OH are not 7OXO, regardless if they are related or not. Estrogen is related to Testosterone and neither act the same. Both are related to Cholesterol and none act the same.

    I have posted tons of relevant research, of which you have no response.

    You posted studies about DHEA metabolites having no AR affinity. A lack of androgenic or anabolic activity means nothing. Case in point - Cortisol has no AR binding, no androgenic activity, and no anabolic activity but it still suppresses HPTA function – Just like 7OH and 5AT do. (the mechanism of which is largely unknown)

    I posted studies that show 7OH reduces testosterone production (by conversion from 7-oxo) whether the metabolite is delivered topically or orally (15% and 8% respectively).

    -Pp

    1. Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
    Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.

    2. Effects of Transdermal Application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the Levels of Steroid Hormones, Gonadotropins and Lipids in Healthy Men.
    J Sulcova, et al.
    Institute of Endocrinology 50: 9-18, 2001

    3. Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers
    Jarmila Sulcova, et al.
    Institute of Endoacrinology 43 (2):221-227 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Absolutely correct.
    Absolutely wrong and you’re absolutely full of it.

    AGAIN, here is the study that showed oral administration of non-androgenic and non-anabolic DHEA’s metabolites lowering testosterone production.

    1. Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
    Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.



    Let me ask you, how much 7Oh or 5At is in your proprietary blend? Perhaps if you where open about the amount of testosterone suppressing ingredients in your product, customers could tailor their dose accordingly – and reap benefits without the side effects.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    So, while this thread may be entertaining to some, the arguments lose intellectual power and the exchanges get more circular as the thread extends.
    I couldn't have said it better. ;-0

    -Pp
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    There are studies proving and disproving each companies arguments, these studies can be interpreted how ever you choose. What it boils down to is that both companies create quality products that live up to there claims. The products however work through different mechanisms and are truly different so this thread is going to go nowhere. Thank you both for the information in this thread and both of you for creating quality products but I suggest you agree to disagree on the topic because an internet fight never goes anywhere but in circles.
    Last edited by pmiller383; 06-13-2008 at 04:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmiller383 View Post
    There are studies proving and disproving each companies arguments, these studies can be interpreted how ever you choose. What it boils down to is that both companies create quality products that live up to there claims. The products however work through different mechanisms and are truly different so this thread is going to go nowhere. Thank you both for the information in this thread and both of you for creating quality products but I suggest you agree to disagree on the topic because and internet fight never goes anywhere but in circles.
    True dat. I'll just stack both.
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    i would love to see bloodwors by users here after trying either DHEA metabolite based products or PS product

    because i can ALWAYS find studies on pubmed that says one thing where the other half says otherwise.



    interesting that topical route doesnt go through the liver, i thought all things can filtered...i just dont buy that, those studies are purely dose and time dependent.

    maybe more things get absorbed first by the topical route having greater results/sides where the oral route gets poor bioavailibity due to IG tract and probably liver at some point. Less result and less sides that way. Plus, dont people usually mega dose (orally) those 7OH, 7oxo etc products? that should spill over.

    one day im sure someone will do some blood work i hope
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    As long as you don’t have cushings syndrome you could likely benefit from a lower diurnal cortisol level.

    Cortisol released during the night is perfectly ok. But having a high cortisol level throughout the day is highly undesirable. High diurnal cortisol is sign of nutritional deficiency, perhaps a PS deficiency. (seriously)

    -Pp
    I hate when people use words and they don't know what they mean. Diurnal: Relating to or occurring in a 24-hour period; daily. Therefore, when you talk about reducing cortisol diurnally, you are talking about reducing it though a 24 hour period, not just the daytime
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmiller383 View Post
    There are studies proving and disproving each companies arguments, these studies can be interpreted how ever you choose. What it boils down to is that both companies create quality products that live up to there claims. The products however work through different mechanisms and are truly different so this thread is going to go nowhere. Thank you both for the information in this thread and both of you for creating quality products but I suggest you agree to disagree on the topic because an internet fight never goes anywhere but in circles.
    The reason is that measuring cortisol levels is very difficult. the act of measuring itself often increases stress levels and cortisol release so it is not very reliable which is why, if the doctor thinks you may have a problem, does an ACTH stimulation test or some other kind of tests to see how your adrenals are doing instead of just measuring cortisol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Please post a study that shows Total Test is responsible for the actions of testosterone in the body, independant of free test.

    There are dozens of studies showing free testosterone is the bioactive form of testosterone, it is not something which has been overated by the supplement industry.

    "Only about 2 percent of the total testosterone in the plasma of men is free or nonprotein bound; about 1 percent in women. In most men and women, more than 50 percent of total circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), and most of the rest is bound to albumin. It is only the free or nonprotein bound testosterone which is the hormonally active form, able to interact with cellular hormone receptors. SHBG-bound testosterone is not readily available for intracellular complex formation because of SHBG's high binding affinity for testosterone."

    "Testosterone-bound SHBG is considered biologically inactive. SHBG levels are sensitive to changes in estrogen and testosterone. Thus conditions which affect SHBG will directly affect the serum levels and biological activity."
    Excellent google lesson.... http://www.thedoctorsdoctor.com/labt...stosterone.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Agreed. Total test means nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Desperately searching google, and pulling quotes from top ranked sites about basic endocrinologic function is only detracting from the main point of this thread...
    Fudge he beat me to it....
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Agreed. Total test means nothing.
    Nothing at all....I suppose if you dont mind diabetes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Nothing at all....I suppose if you dont mind diabetes?
    Free test is active, bound test is not -- that pretty much sums it up. Take any masters level endocrinology course or read the willkiams text and you will understand.
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    OT: Are you the "set point" Seth Roberts???? Or just a fan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    OT: Are you the "set point" Seth Roberts???? Or just a fan?
    No, I have used this name as a pseudonym for the past 10 years or so.

    Also, a pet peeve of mine, HPTA is hypothalamic pituitary Thyroid axis, HPGA is hypothalamic gonadal axis and HPA is hypothalamic adrenal axis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Free test is active, bound test is not -- that pretty much sums it up. Take any masters level endocrinology course or read the willkiams text and you will understand.
    Yes, this is very well understood even by those with undergrad level endo knowledge. But its sounds as if your saying males with low total test are perfectly healthy with normal free test ranges? I'm putting words in your mouth but its seems like that is where you are taking this...

    We are way OT, btw...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Yes, this is very well understood even by those with undergrad level endo knowledge. But its sounds as if your saying males with low total test are perfectly healthy with normal free test ranges? I'm putting words in your mouth but its seems like that is where you are taking this...

    We are way OT, btw...
    Since the range for total test is so braod, it is almost pointless to even look at it. It is very unlikely that you would have total test below the cutoff for the normal range and still have free test be normal unless you were doing something to manipulate SHBG levels.
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    A pet peeve of mine is guy who thinks he has some great unconventional wisdom, when he really doesn’t.

    HPTA – Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis

    HPTA - Definition by AcronymFinder

    Duirnal can be referred to as a Diurnal event that occurs once every 24hrs

    Or

    Something that happens during the day. (ie daytime cortisol levels, as opposed to nocturnal levels)

    diurnal - Definitions from Dictionary.com

    -Pp
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    So so far we've seen:

    1. Squabling like children with no real resolution (unlikely either)

    2. Alias usernames coming in and backing up each camp

    3. No real resolution

    So how about we close this POS thread down and leave it at that. Way to go guys. The whole E-penis thing gets a little old. There are good and bad to both product lines.

    Suck it up and move on ladies. I definitely think a one question - one answer format would be wise. If you can't answer then GTFO!

    P.S grant remove your nose from DS k?
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    So so far we've seen:

    1. Squabling like children with no real resolution (unlikely either)

    2. Alias usernames coming in and backing up each camp

    3. No real resolution

    So how about we close this POS thread down and leave it at that. Way to go guys. The whole E-penis thing gets a little old. There are good and bad to both product lines.

    Suck it up and move on ladies. I definitely think a one question - one answer format would be wise. If you can't answer then GTFO!

    P.S grant remove your nose from DS k?
    Not to play devils advocate... but if you see back and forth with DS, its because someone has stated something about his product. He never steps in to someone elses business until they make it his. So I believe his defense is warrented, and he presented science accordingly.

    All in all only knowledge can ensue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    So so far we've seen:

    1. Squabling like children with no real resolution (unlikely either)
    The whole E-penis thing gets a little old.


    P.S grant remove your nose from DS k?
    Are you f*cking kidding me?!

    I back up quite a few companies here, especially ones that I like, as do many other people on the boards.

    You go through your whole tirade about people being babies, then you single me out for backing up DS.


    IBE just lost a customer due to your post.

    How do you like that?
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    And Neo, and Grant, back off each other.

    There is no reason to attack each other. Grant is backing someone he believes in. It happens non stop around here, and with good resolve.

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    Please conduct yourselves politely, respectfully and professionally...please.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    A pet peeve of mine is guy who thinks he has some great unconventional wisdom, when he really doesn’t.

    HPTA – Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis

    HPTA - Definition by AcronymFinder

    Duirnal can be referred to as a Diurnal event that occurs once every 24hrs

    Or

    Something that happens during the day. (ie daytime cortisol levels, as opposed to nocturnal levels)

    diurnal - Definitions from Dictionary.com

    -Pp
    HPTA has been used as you stated, however, it creates confusion with the hypothalamic pituitary thyroid axis which is why most people in the field refer to them as the HPGA and the HPTA.

    As far as Diurnal is concerned, since most scientists, doctors, etc are concerned with the diurnal variations in hormone production, they are referring to the changes throughout an entire 24 hours, not just during the day. just because you can find a definition that refers to zoology or some other discipline or a common use of a word doesn't mean that is how it is used by people in a specific field.
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    Cease-fire on insults. Discuss/argue points...
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    want to hear more feedback from people that have tried endoamp

    PS has been around for a long time, never used it before cuz it was too expensive but would try it now if i hear some feedback from users.

    that would be more relevant to this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    HPTA has been used as you stated, however, it creates confusion with the hypothalamic pituitary thyroid axis which is why most people in the field refer to them as the HPGA and the HPTA.

    As far as Diurnal is concerned, since most scientists, doctors, etc are concerned with the diurnal variations in hormone production, they are referring to the changes throughout an entire 24 hours, not just during the day. just because you can find a definition that refers to zoology or some other discipline or a common use of a word doesn't mean that is how it is used by people in a specific field.
    Fair enough. I agree to disagree.

    Comacho,

    Sounds good bro.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    Suck it up and move on ladies.
    Sounds like your writing the script for a porno.
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    Quote Originally Posted by comacho View Post
    want to hear more feedback from people that have tried endoamp

    PS has been around for a long time, never used it before cuz it was too expensive but would try it now if i hear some feedback from users.

    that would be more relevant to this thread.
    i too have seen PS in health stores for awhile now, been interested too but the price discouraged me from trying something i didn't know much about. i like lean extreme a lot and will continue using, but ps sounds like something i might add to it or cycle around use of lean extreme. btw i have never used PS before but i can tell you from personal experience that lean extreme is a very good product.
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