The #1 Cortisol Blocker
- 06-11-2008, 09:11 PM
Ill stay in this thread as long as you keep lying to people about the non anabolic, non androgenic metabolites of DHEA which do not suppress HPTA. As proven through multiple studies by different researchers posted above.
- 06-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Transdermal 7OXO should not be used during PCT, that is all that you have shown, nothing else.
The research is posted above maybe you should read it.
- 06-11-2008, 09:22 PM
06-11-2008, 09:30 PM
06-11-2008, 09:36 PM
06-11-2008, 09:43 PM
YOU may be done and after this thread you should be but Im not going anywhere.
06-11-2008, 09:45 PM
In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.
But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.
In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.
This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.
Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.
There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
06-11-2008, 09:53 PM
06-11-2008, 09:57 PM
This all got over my head quickly. Don't steroids disrupt or stop normal production? What restarts your testosterone? Can it be restarted with synthetic hormones still present in your system? I loved to be able to follow this discussion better.
06-11-2008, 09:58 PM
I’m giving you a polite invite to exit the thread. I suggest you take it, before you get chewed up any further. I doubt this thread is hurting your sells as much as you think it is. Relax and stop embarrassing yourself. (and your company)
Replace the 7OH and 5AT with PS and you will have a solid product. Nothing wrong with a reformulation.
06-11-2008, 10:00 PM
06-11-2008, 10:08 PM
06-11-2008, 10:22 PM
Here it is for anyone who wants to see -
06-11-2008, 11:02 PM
06-11-2008, 11:21 PM
Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers.
J Sulcova, R Hampl, M Hill, L Starka, and A Novacek
Clin Chem Lab Med, January 1, 2005; 43(2): 221-7.
Epitestosterone is generally considered an "anti-androgen" because it doesn’t poses significant androgenic/anabolic activity.
06-11-2008, 11:49 PM
And there is another study that was mentioned in an article by David Tolson saying that there was no change in testosterone or estradiol levels and only T3 was increased (J Ex Physiology online. 1999 2(4). Double-Blind Study Evaluating the Effects of Exercise Plus 3-Acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on Body Composition and Endocrine System in Overweight Adults. Colker CM, Torina GC, Swain MA, Kalman DS.)
06-11-2008, 11:54 PM
06-12-2008, 01:55 AM
I remember you saying you “dont recommend [7OH] for PCT”. Is this because you know it suppresses the HPTA?
It’s funny you’re mentioning 7-oxo studies now. Earlier you refused to acknowledge the relationship between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. I guess whatever’s convenient for you eh?
06-12-2008, 02:15 AM
Read the full text of any oral 7-oxo study. You will see the same general trend of reduced sex hormones, including a reduction in total Testosterone. It may not be significant enough to put in an abstract, but it’s a reduction of Testosterone none the less. This is enough to make me not want to use it for PCT, when minimizing suppression of the HPTA is critical.
Phosphatidylserine has a clear benefit of being able to suppress cortisol release, while simultaneously increasing testosterone production. (This is at least a step in the right direction)
If you have more studies or in-house blood tests for DHEA metabolites, feel free to post them up. As far as I can tell all the research has been laid on the table. At this point, it’s ultimately the consumer’s decision.
Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.
06-12-2008, 03:09 AM
06-12-2008, 03:47 AM
Here is the abstract -
HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
[Annual Meeting Abstracts]
Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
California State University, Chico
A double-blind, crossover design study, measured the effects of 800 mg/d soybean derived phosphatidylserine (PS) or placebo (C) during 2-wk intense weight training on cortisol (CT), adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH), testosterone (TS), luteinizing hormone (LH), well-being (WB), and muscle soreness (MS) in 11 trained males. Subjects did 5 sets of 10 repetitions of 13 exercises, 4 times/wk for 2, 2-wk periods (3-wk recovery). Venous blood was sampled 6 mornings (T1-T6) and 15-min following the 8th work-out (T7). WB and MS were estimated using 10-point scales. CT was the same in PS and C in T1-T6 but decreased between T6 and T7 in PS (15.6 ± 1.7 to 10.0±0.9μg/dL, mean±SEM, P<0.05) but not in C. ACTH did not change in PS in T1-T7 but increased in C between T4 and T5-7 by over 50%. TS increased in PS between T1 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL) and T3 (4.4±0.5 ng/mL) and fell in both treatments between T3 and T7 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL, PS; 3.3±0.4, C). LH increased significantly between T1 (1.5±0.1 mlU/mL) and T6(2.2±0.3 mlU/mL) in PS but did not change in C. WB was greater in P than C in T2-T6. In C, WB at T3 was markedly depressed (4.9±0.8). MS increased in both treatments and was greater in C than PS at T2 (61%) and T5(55%). Cortisol decreased in PS after exercise, possibly by depressing ACTH. PS attenuated the negative effects of intense weight training on perception of well-being and muscle soreness
06-12-2008, 02:11 PM
You were the one who said the compounds were the same. I have repeatedly said that they are different. Since you dont understand the difference I can still prove that you are wrong just by using all of the 7OXO studies.
Transdermal use isnt relevant because it prevents 7oxo from going through the liver. Its a HUGE difference but since you dont understand how these compounds work its easy to see why you are so confused.
06-12-2008, 02:22 PM
wow, am I the only one looking at this thinking it'a a bit immature? I think this sets in stone the fact that I will never buy a designer supplement product. I don;t even know what the hell you guys are talkign about, but even I can tell that you are going back and forth. Perhaps you BOTH have good supplements?
E L E
06-12-2008, 02:23 PM
06-12-2008, 02:38 PM
Designer Supplements has been around for a long time now and has produced many great products. He is trying to debunk information which is being presented by PP for the good of the board. I would side with Designer any day of the week over a new company like PP. And no one is debating if the products are good or not, but rather the information the PP is selling products by and saying it is so much better than LX when there is no science to back it up.
06-12-2008, 02:53 PM
06-12-2008, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by joebo
If you could choose just one fat loss product that you have used in the past, what would it be? I'm looking to drop about 7 lbs and looking for a little help in doing so.
Originally Posted By Designer Supps
If youre going to be serious about your diet Ill send you a bottle of Adrenalean for free. Try it out and let me know how it worked towards the 7lbs of fatloss. PM me your addy if you are interested.
Heres where I found this...
If you could choose only one fat loss product...
Yeah I would back a company too if they were given me free product. Primordial may be a new company but I have received nothing but good info and results from them...these bros know their stuff
06-12-2008, 03:13 PM
I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies. No one is debating the effectiveness of any product, but again the fact that the information that is being given to promote a product is misleading.
06-12-2008, 03:15 PM
06-12-2008, 03:49 PM
There is nothing wrong with free products. What makes all this interesting is after gibbob2 shows support for PP, joebo comes in to support DS. All perfectly fine. However, when it is shown that joebo has a biased opinion, he responds with
"I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies."
Which is obviously untrue, shown by his comment 35 minutes earlier.
But all this is in good fun, so who really cares?
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