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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    No you didnt. You provided proof that TRANSDERMAL 7OXO will lower total test, nothing more. 7OXO is not the same compound as 7OH or 5AT. You are trying to apply the use of a study on trans 7OXO to cover oral use on non-7OXO compounds. Your logic is completely flawed and you have NO PROOF.

    There is no burden of proof for me because there isnt a SINGLE study to show that 7OH or 5AT are suppressive. The burden of proof is on you.

    You ref. this study in your write up and it does not involve any other metabolite of DHEA other then 7OXO and it is delivered by transdermal application. The study provides no conclusion or even questions 7OH or 5AT. This study provides nothing to supprot your claims against 7OH or 5AT or even oral 7OXO for that matter.
    Effects of Transdermal Application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the Levels of Steroid Hormones, Gonadotropins and Lipids in Healthy Men.

    You also ref this study which only tests transdermal 7OXO. It doesnt suggest in anyway that oral use of 7OH or 5AT would be suppressive in anyway. Your original post is BULL**** and you have no evidence to suggest anything other then people should not use TRANSDERMAL 7OXO during PCT.
    DS,

    Perhaps you didn’t read the full text of the studies I posted. 7OH was the primary active metabolite from the transdermal 7-oxo DHEA administration. 7OH goes up and testosterone, LH and FSH goes down. My original hypothesis still remains – “7-oxo DHEA metabolites lower testosterone”

    Based on your above response, it appears you aren’t aware of the connection between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. Let me drive it home for you.

    Here is a quote from your LX product write up about 7OH –

    “Neither of the two isomers of 7-OH can convert to androgens or estrogens but appear instead to convert between each other and another DHEA metabolite called 7-oxo-DHEA5”

    And another quote about 5AT –

    “5-AT, the first new ingredient in Lean Xtreme, is another interesting compound. Like 7-OH, it is a metabolite of DHEA.”

    Case in point, these 7-oxo derived hormones are generally synonymous in action.

    Just for fairness, here is a study on oral 7-oxo DHEA. Again, you see a drop in testosterone. (significant 8% drop)

    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    Davidson M, Marwah A, Sawchuk RJ, Maki K, Marwah P, Weeks C, Lardy H.
    Chicago Center for Clinical Research, Ill, USA.


    If you have research showing that 7-oxo derived ingredients don’t lower testosterone, feel free to post it. Otherwise, you have no reason to call BS until you bring something to the table.

    Thanks.

    -Pp


  2. Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    PP,

    Question about effective dose: Is the effective dose 800 mg of 50% PS or is it twice that or 800 mg of pure PS?
    The dose of EndoAmp has 1600mg of 50% PS powder. So it gives you the 800mg that you need.

    -Pp
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by vpower View Post
    So Designer Supps, i just checked out your website, and I wanted to know what 3 year did your product write ups. But seriously I found a link to support your arguments;

    Care to debunk any of DS writeups?



    Anyone but me remember when someone would have been banned for trolling like this?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,



    Just for fairness, here is a study on oral 7-oxo DHEA. Again, you see a drop in testosterone. (significant 8% drop)

    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    Davidson M, Marwah A, Sawchuk RJ, Maki K, Marwah P, Weeks C, Lardy H.
    Chicago Center for Clinical Research, Ill, USA.




    -Pp

    LOL! Seriously? You sure you want to bring up that study?



    Despite an 8% decrease in total testosterone in
    the blood of 7-oxo-DHEA-treated subjects (p <
    0.01), both statistical methods disclosed that there
    was a significant (14.4%, p < 0.01) increase of free
    testosterone from day 0 (26.7 [1.3] pg/mL, mean [and
    standard deviation]) to day 56 (30.8 [1.9] pg/mL) in
    subjects treated with 3β-acetyl-7-oxo-DHEA.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    LOL! Seriously? You sure you want to bring up that study?
    A temporary offset of Testosterone from SHBG is hardly something to brag about. A lot of supplements will do this.

    Besides, the topic here isn’t about increasing free testosterone. It’s about increasing production of testosterone (total T) and avoiding inhibition of the HPTA – something you can’t avoid with the DHEA metabolites.

    -Pp
    •   
       


  6. I would trade an 8% decrease in total T for an 14% increase in free T any day....

    Just thought I'd point that out since you failed to leave that important part out from your "abstract". An 8% drop in total T would suck without the increase in free T.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I would trade an 8% decrease in total T for an 14% increase in free T any day....

    Just thought I'd point that out since you failed to leave that important part out from your "abstract". An 8% drop in total T would suck without the increase in free T.
    In general, the benefits of increasing “Free T” have been over-rated by the supplement industry.

    When Testosterone levels are low (ie, during PCT) you dont want further inhibition of the HPTA. An increase in Total T is what you should be looking for, not a supplement to "free up" your non-existent T levels.

    -Pp

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,

    Perhaps you didn’t read the full text of the studies I posted. 7OH was the primary active metabolite from the transdermal 7-oxo DHEA administration. 7OH goes up and testosterone, LH and FSH goes down. My original hypothesis still remains – “7-oxo DHEA metabolites lower testosterone”

    Based on your above response, it appears you aren’t aware of the connection between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. Let me drive it home for you.

    Here is a quote from your LX product write up about 7OH –

    “Neither of the two isomers of 7-OH can convert to androgens or estrogens but appear instead to convert between each other and another DHEA metabolite called 7-oxo-DHEA5”

    And another quote about 5AT –

    “5-AT, the first new ingredient in Lean Xtreme, is another interesting compound. Like 7-OH, it is a metabolite of DHEA.”

    Case in point, these 7-oxo derived hormones are generally synonymous in action.

    Just for fairness, here is a study on oral 7-oxo DHEA. Again, you see a drop in testosterone. (significant 8% drop)

    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    Davidson M, Marwah A, Sawchuk RJ, Maki K, Marwah P, Weeks C, Lardy H.
    Chicago Center for Clinical Research, Ill, USA.


    If you have research showing that 7-oxo derived ingredients don’t lower testosterone, feel free to post it. Otherwise, you have no reason to call BS until you bring something to the table.

    Thanks.

    -Pp
    Since you only want to read 3 studies and cannot understand the differences between these metabolites chemistry and biochemistry Ill make it very easy for you to follow along.

    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf
    So all I have to do is visualize myself on stage at the O, and it will be like I am on da joos?

    "because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and goshdarnit people like me."

    BTW, adiol can activate estrogenic target genes?
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    In general, the benefits of increasing “Free T” have been over-rated by the supplement industry.

    When Testosterone levels are low (ie, during PCT) you dont want further inhibition of the HPTA. An increase in Total T is what you should be looking for, not a supplement to "free up" your non-existent T levels.

    -Pp
    Please post a study that shows Total Test is responsible for the actions of testosterone in the body, independant of free test.

    There are dozens of studies showing free testosterone is the bioactive form of testosterone, it is not something which has been overated by the supplement industry.

    "Only about 2 percent of the total testosterone in the plasma of men is free or nonprotein bound; about 1 percent in women. In most men and women, more than 50 percent of total circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), and most of the rest is bound to albumin. It is only the free or nonprotein bound testosterone which is the hormonally active form, able to interact with cellular hormone receptors. SHBG-bound testosterone is not readily available for intracellular complex formation because of SHBG's high binding affinity for testosterone."

    "Testosterone-bound SHBG is considered biologically inactive. SHBG levels are sensitive to changes in estrogen and testosterone. Thus conditions which affect SHBG will directly affect the serum levels and biological activity."

    For PCT you want an increase in total testosterone, free testosterone, control of estrogen, control of cortisol, increases in lean mass, decreases in fat mass and prevention of fat accumulation. All of the above is done by LX and is backed by science, which is why it is leaps and bounds better then PS.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    So all I have to do is visualize myself on stage at the O, and it will be like I am on da joos?

    "because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and goshdarnit people like me."

    BTW, adiol can activate estrogenic target genes?
    If you visualize while thinking about wrestling (found to increase test the highest) youll be even hugerer

    It can which is why an AI with DHEA doesnt provide any additional benefit then what an AI alone would provide. You would need to block 5ADs action on the estrogen receptor.

  12. This is a very informative thread, I'm going to come back to this.

    Cortisol isnt really a hormone you want elevated during PCT at all. It brings a host of negatives. The most important (I believe) is its ability to lower LH and GnRH to some extent.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    This is a very informative thread, I'm going to come back to this.

    Cortisol isnt really a hormone you want elevated during PCT at all. It brings a host of negatives. The most important (I believe) is its ability to lower LH and GnRH to some extent.
    Its also catabolic which is why its important that it be controlled. LH is very sensitive to feedback which is why LH promoting compounds never really work they way people say they will.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Since you only want to read 3 studies and cannot understand the differences between these metabolites chemistry and biochemistry Ill make it very easy for you to follow along.

    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
    This entire post illustrates your miss-understanding of the DHEA metabolites.

    Nobody is questioning the fact that these DHEA metabolites don’t activate the AR. They don’t have to activate the AR to suppress the HPTA. That’s where your logic is wrong -- you assume that since they have no “anabolic or androgenic” action that they don’t influence the HPTA. They do suppress the HPTA, and the research clearly shows it. (It could even be argued that these metabolites are anti-androgens, since they cause a sharp rise in epitestosterone, the anti-androgen)

    At any rate, you still haven’t addressed the original issue. Do you have any research showing that these ingredients don’t suppress the HPTA?

    -Pp

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Please post a study that shows Total Test is responsible for the actions of testosterone in the body, independant of free test.

    There are dozens of studies showing free testosterone is the bioactive form of testosterone, it is not something which has been overated by the supplement industry.

    "Only about 2 percent of the total testosterone in the plasma of men is free or nonprotein bound; about 1 percent in women. In most men and women, more than 50 percent of total circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), and most of the rest is bound to albumin. It is only the free or nonprotein bound testosterone which is the hormonally active form, able to interact with cellular hormone receptors. SHBG-bound testosterone is not readily available for intracellular complex formation because of SHBG's high binding affinity for testosterone."

    "Testosterone-bound SHBG is considered biologically inactive. SHBG levels are sensitive to changes in estrogen and testosterone. Thus conditions which affect SHBG will directly affect the serum levels and biological activity."

    For PCT you want an increase in total testosterone, free testosterone, control of estrogen, control of cortisol, increases in lean mass, decreases in fat mass and prevention of fat accumulation. All of the above is done by LX and is backed by science, which is why it is leaps and bounds better then PS.
    Desperately searching google, and pulling quotes from top ranked sites about basic endocrinologic function is only detracting from the main point of this thread.The main point being -- DHEA metabolites reduce the body’s production of testosterone. Period.

    If you want to debate the endocrinologic relationship and importance of free-test and total-test, feel free to start a new thread. This isnt the place.

    Thanks.

    -Pp

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Desperately searching google, and pulling quotes from top ranked sites about basic endocrinologic function is only detracting from the main point of this thread.The main point being -- DHEA metabolites reduce the body’s production of testosterone. Period.

    If you want to debate the endocrinologic relationship and importance of free-test and total-test, feel free to start a new thread. This isnt the place.

    Thanks.

    -Pp
    No actually its pulling studies from my notes and pubmed (because unlike you, I understand the science and research) but either way the results are the same. You are clearly wrong and arent big enough to admit it..

    Ill stay in this thread as long as you keep lying to people about the non anabolic, non androgenic metabolites of DHEA which do not suppress HPTA. As proven through multiple studies by different researchers posted above.

    Your welcome.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    This entire post illustrates your miss-understanding of the DHEA metabolites.

    Nobody is questioning the fact that these DHEA metabolites don’t activate the AR. They don’t have to activate the AR to suppress the HPTA. That’s where your logic is wrong -- you assume that since they have no “anabolic or androgenic” action that they don’t influence the HPTA. They do suppress the HPTA, and the research clearly shows it. (It could even be argued that these metabolites are anti-androgens, since they cause a sharp rise in epitestosterone, the anti-androgen)

    At any rate, you still haven’t addressed the original issue. Do you have any research showing that these ingredients don’t suppress the HPTA?

    -Pp
    No you are the one who doesnt understand it. It does not bind to the AR. Anti-androgens do not RAISE free test and DHT, lower estrogen etc. You have a very poor understanding of the body and instead of admiting that you were wrong you are trying to say that the tons of research performed is wrong. Thats insane.

    Transdermal 7OXO should not be used during PCT, that is all that you have shown, nothing else.

    The research is posted above maybe you should read it.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    No you are the one who doesnt understand it. It does not bind to the AR. Anti-androgens do not RAISE free test and DHT, lower estrogen etc. You have a very poor understanding of the body and instead of admiting that you were wrong you are trying to say that the tons of research performed is wrong. Thats insane.

    Transdermal 7OXO should not be used during PCT, that is all that you have shown, nothing else.

    The research is posted above maybe you should read it.
    Your right, I don’t understand the research, I’m wrong, and I’m not big enough to admit it.

    I’m glad we got to the bottom of this. (wink, wink)

    Thanks for stopping by DS. Goodbye.

    -Pp

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Your right, I don’t understand the research, I’m wrong, and I’m not big enough to admit it.

    I’m glad we got to the bottom of this. (wink, wink)

    Thanks for stopping by DS. Goodbye.

    -Pp
    wink wink, I was here before you even thought about selling supps. Im not going anywhere and if you dont stop your bull**** youll be seeing a lot of my posts.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    wink wink, I was here before you even thought about selling supps. Im not going anywhere and if you dont stop your bull**** youll be seeing a lot of my posts.
    Go ahead and post that research when you’re ready to disprove my “bull****”. Until then, we are done here.

    -Pp

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Go ahead and post that research when you’re ready to disprove my “bull****”. Until then, we are done here.

    -Pp
    Its posted and you have no response because you know you are wrong. Youve been disproven, multiple times and on multiple boards. We were done 8 posts ago you just dont know it cause you have no idea what those studies mean.

    YOU may be done and after this thread you should be but Im not going anywhere.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Go ahead and post that research when you’re ready to disprove my “bull****”. Until then, we are done here.

    -Pp
    Here it is again in case you missed it the first time.
    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Its posted and you have no response because you know you are wrong. Youve been disproven, multiple times and on multiple boards. We were done 8 posts ago you just dont know it cause you have no idea what those studies mean.

    YOU may be done and after this thread you should be but Im not going anywhere.
    I hope you're enjoying your delusional self-proclaimed victorys.

    -Pp

  24. This all got over my head quickly. Don't steroids disrupt or stop normal production? What restarts your testosterone? Can it be restarted with synthetic hormones still present in your system? I loved to be able to follow this discussion better.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Here it is again in case you missed it the first time.
    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
    You’re just reposting the same unrelated research you posted before, which I’ve already replied to.

    I’m giving you a polite invite to exit the thread. I suggest you take it, before you get chewed up any further. I doubt this thread is hurting your sells as much as you think it is. Relax and stop embarrassing yourself. (and your company)

    Replace the 7OH and 5AT with PS and you will have a solid product. Nothing wrong with a reformulation.

    -Pp
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