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    I would trade an 8% decrease in total T for an 14% increase in free T any day....

    Just thought I'd point that out since you failed to leave that important part out from your "abstract". An 8% drop in total T would suck without the increase in free T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I would trade an 8% decrease in total T for an 14% increase in free T any day....

    Just thought I'd point that out since you failed to leave that important part out from your "abstract". An 8% drop in total T would suck without the increase in free T.
    In general, the benefits of increasing “Free T” have been over-rated by the supplement industry.

    When Testosterone levels are low (ie, during PCT) you dont want further inhibition of the HPTA. An increase in Total T is what you should be looking for, not a supplement to "free up" your non-existent T levels.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    DS,

    Perhaps you didn’t read the full text of the studies I posted. 7OH was the primary active metabolite from the transdermal 7-oxo DHEA administration. 7OH goes up and testosterone, LH and FSH goes down. My original hypothesis still remains – “7-oxo DHEA metabolites lower testosterone”

    Based on your above response, it appears you aren’t aware of the connection between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. Let me drive it home for you.

    Here is a quote from your LX product write up about 7OH –

    “Neither of the two isomers of 7-OH can convert to androgens or estrogens but appear instead to convert between each other and another DHEA metabolite called 7-oxo-DHEA5”

    And another quote about 5AT –

    “5-AT, the first new ingredient in Lean Xtreme, is another interesting compound. Like 7-OH, it is a metabolite of DHEA.”

    Case in point, these 7-oxo derived hormones are generally synonymous in action.

    Just for fairness, here is a study on oral 7-oxo DHEA. Again, you see a drop in testosterone. (significant 8% drop)

    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    Davidson M, Marwah A, Sawchuk RJ, Maki K, Marwah P, Weeks C, Lardy H.
    Chicago Center for Clinical Research, Ill, USA.


    If you have research showing that 7-oxo derived ingredients don’t lower testosterone, feel free to post it. Otherwise, you have no reason to call BS until you bring something to the table.

    Thanks.

    -Pp
    Since you only want to read 3 studies and cannot understand the differences between these metabolites chemistry and biochemistry Ill make it very easy for you to follow along.

    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf
    So all I have to do is visualize myself on stage at the O, and it will be like I am on da joos?

    "because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and goshdarnit people like me."

    BTW, adiol can activate estrogenic target genes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    In general, the benefits of increasing “Free T” have been over-rated by the supplement industry.

    When Testosterone levels are low (ie, during PCT) you dont want further inhibition of the HPTA. An increase in Total T is what you should be looking for, not a supplement to "free up" your non-existent T levels.

    -Pp
    Please post a study that shows Total Test is responsible for the actions of testosterone in the body, independant of free test.

    There are dozens of studies showing free testosterone is the bioactive form of testosterone, it is not something which has been overated by the supplement industry.

    "Only about 2 percent of the total testosterone in the plasma of men is free or nonprotein bound; about 1 percent in women. In most men and women, more than 50 percent of total circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), and most of the rest is bound to albumin. It is only the free or nonprotein bound testosterone which is the hormonally active form, able to interact with cellular hormone receptors. SHBG-bound testosterone is not readily available for intracellular complex formation because of SHBG's high binding affinity for testosterone."

    "Testosterone-bound SHBG is considered biologically inactive. SHBG levels are sensitive to changes in estrogen and testosterone. Thus conditions which affect SHBG will directly affect the serum levels and biological activity."

    For PCT you want an increase in total testosterone, free testosterone, control of estrogen, control of cortisol, increases in lean mass, decreases in fat mass and prevention of fat accumulation. All of the above is done by LX and is backed by science, which is why it is leaps and bounds better then PS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    So all I have to do is visualize myself on stage at the O, and it will be like I am on da joos?

    "because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and goshdarnit people like me."

    BTW, adiol can activate estrogenic target genes?
    If you visualize while thinking about wrestling (found to increase test the highest) youll be even hugerer

    It can which is why an AI with DHEA doesnt provide any additional benefit then what an AI alone would provide. You would need to block 5ADs action on the estrogen receptor.
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    This is a very informative thread, I'm going to come back to this.

    Cortisol isnt really a hormone you want elevated during PCT at all. It brings a host of negatives. The most important (I believe) is its ability to lower LH and GnRH to some extent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifto View Post
    This is a very informative thread, I'm going to come back to this.

    Cortisol isnt really a hormone you want elevated during PCT at all. It brings a host of negatives. The most important (I believe) is its ability to lower LH and GnRH to some extent.
    Its also catabolic which is why its important that it be controlled. LH is very sensitive to feedback which is why LH promoting compounds never really work they way people say they will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Since you only want to read 3 studies and cannot understand the differences between these metabolites chemistry and biochemistry Ill make it very easy for you to follow along.

    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
    This entire post illustrates your miss-understanding of the DHEA metabolites.

    Nobody is questioning the fact that these DHEA metabolites don’t activate the AR. They don’t have to activate the AR to suppress the HPTA. That’s where your logic is wrong -- you assume that since they have no “anabolic or androgenic” action that they don’t influence the HPTA. They do suppress the HPTA, and the research clearly shows it. (It could even be argued that these metabolites are anti-androgens, since they cause a sharp rise in epitestosterone, the anti-androgen)

    At any rate, you still haven’t addressed the original issue. Do you have any research showing that these ingredients don’t suppress the HPTA?

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Please post a study that shows Total Test is responsible for the actions of testosterone in the body, independant of free test.

    There are dozens of studies showing free testosterone is the bioactive form of testosterone, it is not something which has been overated by the supplement industry.

    "Only about 2 percent of the total testosterone in the plasma of men is free or nonprotein bound; about 1 percent in women. In most men and women, more than 50 percent of total circulating testosterone is bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), and most of the rest is bound to albumin. It is only the free or nonprotein bound testosterone which is the hormonally active form, able to interact with cellular hormone receptors. SHBG-bound testosterone is not readily available for intracellular complex formation because of SHBG's high binding affinity for testosterone."

    "Testosterone-bound SHBG is considered biologically inactive. SHBG levels are sensitive to changes in estrogen and testosterone. Thus conditions which affect SHBG will directly affect the serum levels and biological activity."

    For PCT you want an increase in total testosterone, free testosterone, control of estrogen, control of cortisol, increases in lean mass, decreases in fat mass and prevention of fat accumulation. All of the above is done by LX and is backed by science, which is why it is leaps and bounds better then PS.
    Desperately searching google, and pulling quotes from top ranked sites about basic endocrinologic function is only detracting from the main point of this thread.The main point being -- DHEA metabolites reduce the body’s production of testosterone. Period.

    If you want to debate the endocrinologic relationship and importance of free-test and total-test, feel free to start a new thread. This isnt the place.

    Thanks.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Desperately searching google, and pulling quotes from top ranked sites about basic endocrinologic function is only detracting from the main point of this thread.The main point being -- DHEA metabolites reduce the body’s production of testosterone. Period.

    If you want to debate the endocrinologic relationship and importance of free-test and total-test, feel free to start a new thread. This isnt the place.

    Thanks.

    -Pp
    No actually its pulling studies from my notes and pubmed (because unlike you, I understand the science and research) but either way the results are the same. You are clearly wrong and arent big enough to admit it..

    Ill stay in this thread as long as you keep lying to people about the non anabolic, non androgenic metabolites of DHEA which do not suppress HPTA. As proven through multiple studies by different researchers posted above.

    Your welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    This entire post illustrates your miss-understanding of the DHEA metabolites.

    Nobody is questioning the fact that these DHEA metabolites don’t activate the AR. They don’t have to activate the AR to suppress the HPTA. That’s where your logic is wrong -- you assume that since they have no “anabolic or androgenic” action that they don’t influence the HPTA. They do suppress the HPTA, and the research clearly shows it. (It could even be argued that these metabolites are anti-androgens, since they cause a sharp rise in epitestosterone, the anti-androgen)

    At any rate, you still haven’t addressed the original issue. Do you have any research showing that these ingredients don’t suppress the HPTA?

    -Pp
    No you are the one who doesnt understand it. It does not bind to the AR. Anti-androgens do not RAISE free test and DHT, lower estrogen etc. You have a very poor understanding of the body and instead of admiting that you were wrong you are trying to say that the tons of research performed is wrong. Thats insane.

    Transdermal 7OXO should not be used during PCT, that is all that you have shown, nothing else.

    The research is posted above maybe you should read it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    No you are the one who doesnt understand it. It does not bind to the AR. Anti-androgens do not RAISE free test and DHT, lower estrogen etc. You have a very poor understanding of the body and instead of admiting that you were wrong you are trying to say that the tons of research performed is wrong. Thats insane.

    Transdermal 7OXO should not be used during PCT, that is all that you have shown, nothing else.

    The research is posted above maybe you should read it.
    Your right, I don’t understand the research, I’m wrong, and I’m not big enough to admit it.

    I’m glad we got to the bottom of this. (wink, wink)

    Thanks for stopping by DS. Goodbye.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Your right, I don’t understand the research, I’m wrong, and I’m not big enough to admit it.

    I’m glad we got to the bottom of this. (wink, wink)

    Thanks for stopping by DS. Goodbye.

    -Pp
    wink wink, I was here before you even thought about selling supps. Im not going anywhere and if you dont stop your bull**** youll be seeing a lot of my posts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    wink wink, I was here before you even thought about selling supps. Im not going anywhere and if you dont stop your bull**** youll be seeing a lot of my posts.
    Go ahead and post that research when you’re ready to disprove my “bull****”. Until then, we are done here.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Go ahead and post that research when you’re ready to disprove my “bull****”. Until then, we are done here.

    -Pp
    Its posted and you have no response because you know you are wrong. Youve been disproven, multiple times and on multiple boards. We were done 8 posts ago you just dont know it cause you have no idea what those studies mean.

    YOU may be done and after this thread you should be but Im not going anywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Go ahead and post that research when you’re ready to disprove my “bull****”. Until then, we are done here.

    -Pp
    Here it is again in case you missed it the first time.
    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Its posted and you have no response because you know you are wrong. Youve been disproven, multiple times and on multiple boards. We were done 8 posts ago you just dont know it cause you have no idea what those studies mean.

    YOU may be done and after this thread you should be but Im not going anywhere.
    I hope you're enjoying your delusional self-proclaimed victorys.

    -Pp
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    This all got over my head quickly. Don't steroids disrupt or stop normal production? What restarts your testosterone? Can it be restarted with synthetic hormones still present in your system? I loved to be able to follow this discussion better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Here it is again in case you missed it the first time.
    In these studies it was shown that oral use of 7OXO did not induce any anabolic or androgenic response and that body chemistry was unchanged when compared to placebo.
    This has been proven by the patent holder (Humantecs) and can be found all over their website (humaneticscorp.com), which is why it is legal to use it in naturally tested events.
    Lardy, H. et al (1998) "Ergosteroids 3 II: Biologically active metabolites and synthetic derivatives of dehydroepiandrosterone" steroids 63: 158-65.
    Lardy, H. "Dehydroepiandrosterone and ergosteroids affect energy expenditure", in Health Promotion and Aging, R. Watson, ed. Harwood Acad. Pub. 1999. pp. 33-42. Zenk, J. Living Longer In The Boomer Age. NY: Advanced Research Press, 1998.

    But just incase those weren’t enough, I pulled some more.

    In this study the researchers tested DHEA and its metabolites for their androgenic actions. It was shown that DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA had NO androgenic activity.
    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2006 Apr;99(1):50-8. Epub 2006 Mar 9.
    Dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites: differential effects on androgen receptor trafficking and transcriptional activity.Mo Q, Lu SF, Simon NG.
    These results provide the first systematic comparison of the (i) androgenic activity of DHEA and its sulfated and hydroxylated metabolites, (ii) relative androgenicity of DHEA itself vs. the established androgens Adione and Adiol, and (iii) ability of DHEA and its major metabolites to promote AR-GFP intracellular trafficking. In addition to partitioning DHEA and its metabolites into compounds with (DHEA, Adione, Adiol) and without (DHEA-S, 7alpha-OH-DHEA, 7beta-OH-DHEA, and 7-oxo-DHEA) androgenic activity, the findings improve our understanding of the intracellular processes mediating the genomic effects of DHEA through AR.

    This study confirmed what the other studies had already found out, no AR transcription by 7-oxo-dhea.
    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Sep 15;95(19):11083-8.
    Delta5-androstenediol is a natural hormone with androgenic activity in human prostate cancer cells.
    Miyamoto H, Yeh S, Lardy H, Messing E, Chang C.
    George Whipple Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Pathology, University of Rochester Medical Center, 601 Elmwood Avenue, Box 626, Rochester, NY 14642, USA.
    It is known that androst-5-ene-3beta,17beta-diol (Adiol), a precursor of testosterone (T), can activate estrogen target genes. The androgenic activity of Adiol itself, however, is poorly understood. Using a transient transfection assay, we here demonstrate in human prostate cancer cells that Adiol can activate androgen receptor (AR) target genes in the presence of AR, and that AR coactivator ARA70 can further enhance this Adiol-induced AR transcriptional activity. In contrast to this finding, an active metabolite of dehydroepiandrosterone, 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone, does not activate AR target gene in the absence or presence of ARA70.

    Although the study you posted showed what was “statistically significant” drop of total testosterone for that study, the drop itself is not significant because of the natural highs and lows of test production in the body. The following studies demonstrate the difference between those through the day as well as those differences between young and old (this study will be refd in my next post).
    Circadian variation in testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, and calculated non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound testosterone in healthy young and elderly men
    S. R. Plymate, J. S. Tenover and W. J. Bremner
    Department of Clinical Investigation, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA 98431-5454.
    Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Aug;39(2):163-71.
    Circadian variation in serum free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone in normal men: measurements, and simulation using a mass action model.
    Cooke RR, McIntosh JE, McIntosh RP.

    There is also an interesting study done which shows that testosterone production can be boosted just by knowledge of a sports event or testing.
    http://www.psyc.sfu.ca/ugrad/files/H...ay/PillayM.pdf

    So as I stated earlier, you are wrong.
    You’re just reposting the same unrelated research you posted before, which I’ve already replied to.

    I’m giving you a polite invite to exit the thread. I suggest you take it, before you get chewed up any further. I doubt this thread is hurting your sells as much as you think it is. Relax and stop embarrassing yourself. (and your company)

    Replace the 7OH and 5AT with PS and you will have a solid product. Nothing wrong with a reformulation.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    I hope you're enjoying your delusional self-proclaimed victorys.

    -Pp
    LMAO, you're the only delusional one here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    You’re just reposting the same unrelated research you posted before, which I’ve already replied to.

    I’m giving you a polite invite to exit the thread. I suggest you take it, before you get chewed up any further. I doubt this thread is hurting your sells as much as you think it is. Relax and stop embarrassing yourself. (and your company)

    Replace the 7OH and 5AT with PS and you will have a solid product. Nothing wrong with a reformulation.

    -Pp
    Im not in here because I think PS powder is hurting my sales, it isnt. Im here because you are lying, just like you were at mind and muscle when you posted this same crap. Ive considered PS in the past and may consider it in the future but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Ive never said PS wasnt good, Ive actually posted the opposite. However your comments about the nonanabolic- nonandrogenic metabolites of DHEA being suppressive is false and the above studies show that whether you want to believe it or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Im not in here because I think PS powder is hurting my sales, it isnt. Im here because you are lying, just like you were at mind and muscle when you posted this same crap. As I said I think PS is a good compound but at the moment there would be no reason for me to use it instead of something that is better. The only person getting embarrassed here is you.
    Yep, the same “crap” was posted on M&M and we came to the same conclusion – DHEA’s metabolites lower testosterone production.

    Here it is for anyone who wants to see -
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/i...howtopic=33280

    -Pp
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    Care to prove that they are anti-androgenic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Care to prove that they are anti-androgenic?
    They may not be direct anti-androgens, but they can have anti-androgenic effects. Here is one study that shows 7-oxo DHEA raising epitestosterone. (there are more studies on this)

    Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers.
    J Sulcova, R Hampl, M Hill, L Starka, and A Novacek
    Clin Chem Lab Med, January 1, 2005; 43(2): 221-7.


    Epitestosterone is generally considered an "anti-androgen" because it doesn’t poses significant androgenic/anabolic activity.

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Yep, the same “crap” was posted on M&M and we came to the same conclusion – DHEA’s metabolites lower testosterone production.

    Here it is for anyone who wants to see -
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/i...howtopic=33280

    -Pp
    Actually you were the only one who came to that conclusion.

    And there is another study that was mentioned in an article by David Tolson saying that there was no change in testosterone or estradiol levels and only T3 was increased (J Ex Physiology online. 1999 2(4). Double-Blind Study Evaluating the Effects of Exercise Plus 3-Acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on Body Composition and Endocrine System in Overweight Adults. Colker CM, Torina GC, Swain MA, Kalman DS.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    They may not be direct anti-androgens, but they can have anti-androgenic effects. Here is one study that shows 7-oxo DHEA raising epitestosterone. (there are more studies on this)

    Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers.
    J Sulcova, R Hampl, M Hill, L Starka, and A Novacek
    Clin Chem Lab Med, January 1, 2005; 43(2): 221-7.


    Epitestosterone is generally considered an "anti-androgen" because it doesn’t poses significant androgenic/anabolic activity.

    -Pp
    LMAO. You are still quoting the same transdermal study. Transdermal application of 7OXO is not relevant to oral use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    Actually you were the only one who came to that conclusion.
    Really?

    I remember you saying you “dont recommend [7OH] for PCT”. Is this because you know it suppresses the HPTA?

    It’s funny you’re mentioning 7-oxo studies now. Earlier you refused to acknowledge the relationship between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. I guess whatever’s convenient for you eh?

    -Pp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designer Supps View Post
    LMAO. You are still quoting the same transdermal study. Transdermal application of 7OXO is not relevant to oral use.
    The transdermal studies are relevant because they give a very clear picture of what happens when these DHEA metabolites get into the system (an amplified result of what happens when administered orally).

    Read the full text of any oral 7-oxo study. You will see the same general trend of reduced sex hormones, including a reduction in total Testosterone. It may not be significant enough to put in an abstract, but it’s a reduction of Testosterone none the less. This is enough to make me not want to use it for PCT, when minimizing suppression of the HPTA is critical.

    Phosphatidylserine has a clear benefit of being able to suppress cortisol release, while simultaneously increasing testosterone production. (This is at least a step in the right direction)

    If you have more studies or in-house blood tests for DHEA metabolites, feel free to post them up. As far as I can tell all the research has been laid on the table. At this point, it’s ultimately the consumer’s decision.

    -Pp


    Safety and pharmacokinetic study with escalating doses of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy male volunteers.
    M Davidson, A Marwah, RJ Sawchuk, K Maki, P Marwah, C Weeks, and H Lardy
    Clin Invest Med, October 1, 2000; 23(5): 300-10.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Phosphatidylserine has a clear benefit of being able to suppress cortisol release, while simultaneously increasing testosterone production. (This is at least a step in the right direction)

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, so PS is a test booster now?


    Studies please.

    And if you are using "HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING" please provide the full text, I can't even access the abstract.


    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, so PS is a test booster now?


    Studies please.

    And if you are using "HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING" please provide the full text, I can't even access the abstract.


    Thanks
    Yes, but PS’s ability to increase testosterone is secondary in action. For instance, if you’re under any kind of physical or mental stress, PS will mitigate the drop in testosterone associated with the rise in cortisol… or perhaps increase testosterone if you’re suppressed from chronically high cortisol levels.

    -Pp

    Here is the abstract -

    HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
    [Annual Meeting Abstracts]
    Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
    California State University, Chico

    A double-blind, crossover design study, measured the effects of 800 mg/d soybean derived phosphatidylserine (PS) or placebo (C) during 2-wk intense weight training on cortisol (CT), adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH), testosterone (TS), luteinizing hormone (LH), well-being (WB), and muscle soreness (MS) in 11 trained males. Subjects did 5 sets of 10 repetitions of 13 exercises, 4 times/wk for 2, 2-wk periods (3-wk recovery). Venous blood was sampled 6 mornings (T1-T6) and 15-min following the 8th work-out (T7). WB and MS were estimated using 10-point scales. CT was the same in PS and C in T1-T6 but decreased between T6 and T7 in PS (15.6 ± 1.7 to 10.0±0.9μg/dL, mean±SEM, P<0.05) but not in C. ACTH did not change in PS in T1-T7 but increased in C between T4 and T5-7 by over 50%. TS increased in PS between T1 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL) and T3 (4.4±0.5 ng/mL) and fell in both treatments between T3 and T7 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL, PS; 3.3±0.4, C). LH increased significantly between T1 (1.5±0.1 mlU/mL) and T6(2.2±0.3 mlU/mL) in PS but did not change in C. WB was greater in P than C in T2-T6. In C, WB at T3 was markedly depressed (4.9±0.8). MS increased in both treatments and was greater in C than PS at T2 (61%) and T5(55%). Cortisol decreased in PS after exercise, possibly by depressing ACTH. PS attenuated the negative effects of intense weight training on perception of well-being and muscle soreness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Really?

    I remember you saying you “dont recommend [7OH] for PCT”. Is this because you know it suppresses the HPTA?

    It’s funny you’re mentioning 7-oxo studies now. Earlier you refused to acknowledge the relationship between 7OH, 5AT and 7-oxo. I guess whatever’s convenient for you eh?

    -Pp
    What I said was LX was not created as a PCT product although it can be used since it increases total testosterone, free testosterone, lowers estrogen, lowers cortisol, increases lean mass, decreases fat mass and helps to prevent futrure gains of fat. It doesnt suppress HPTA and you dont have a single study to show that it does. I dont sell hormones or products that suppress HPTA so I dont see the need in coming out with a product specifically to remedy that situation. However LX will work very well during PCT.

    You were the one who said the compounds were the same. I have repeatedly said that they are different. Since you dont understand the difference I can still prove that you are wrong just by using all of the 7OXO studies.

    Transdermal use isnt relevant because it prevents 7oxo from going through the liver. Its a HUGE difference but since you dont understand how these compounds work its easy to see why you are so confused.
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    wow, am I the only one looking at this thinking it'a a bit immature? I think this sets in stone the fact that I will never buy a designer supplement product. I don;t even know what the hell you guys are talkign about, but even I can tell that you are going back and forth. Perhaps you BOTH have good supplements?

    E L E
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibbob2 View Post
    wow, am I the only one looking at this thinking it'a a bit immature? I think this sets in stone the fact that I will never buy a designer supplement product. I don;t even know what the hell you guys are talkign about, but even I can tell that you are going back and forth. Perhaps you BOTH have good supplements?

    E L E
    nuff said.

    -Pp
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    Designer Supplements has been around for a long time now and has produced many great products. He is trying to debunk information which is being presented by PP for the good of the board. I would side with Designer any day of the week over a new company like PP. And no one is debating if the products are good or not, but rather the information the PP is selling products by and saying it is so much better than LX when there is no science to back it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebo View Post
    Designer Supplements has been around for a long time now and has produced many great products. He is trying to debunk information which is being presented by PP for the good of the board. I would side with Designer any day of the week over a new company like PP. And no one is debating if the products are good or not, but rather the information the PP is selling products by and saying it is so much better than LX when there is no science to back it up.
    Exactly.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by joebo
    If you could choose just one fat loss product that you have used in the past, what would it be? I'm looking to drop about 7 lbs and looking for a little help in doing so.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted By Designer Supps
    If youre going to be serious about your diet Ill send you a bottle of Adrenalean for free. Try it out and let me know how it worked towards the 7lbs of fatloss. PM me your addy if you are interested.

    Heres where I found this...
    If you could choose only one fat loss product...



    Yeah I would back a company too if they were given me free product. Primordial may be a new company but I have received nothing but good info and results from them...these bros know their stuff
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    I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies. No one is debating the effectiveness of any product, but again the fact that the information that is being given to promote a product is misleading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpower View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by joebo
    If you could choose just one fat loss product that you have used in the past, what would it be? I'm looking to drop about 7 lbs and looking for a little help in doing so.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted By Designer Supps
    If youre going to be serious about your diet Ill send you a bottle of Adrenalean for free. Try it out and let me know how it worked towards the 7lbs of fatloss. PM me your addy if you are interested.

    Heres where I found this...
    If you could choose only one fat loss product...



    Yeah I would back a company too if they were given me free product. Primordial may be a new company but I have received nothing but good info and results from them...these bros know their stuff
    There is also this:
    Wanna get Adrenalean? Testers Wanted!!

    And a special on Nutraplanet for Adrenalean and a free t-shirt.
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    There is nothing wrong with free products. What makes all this interesting is after gibbob2 shows support for PP, joebo comes in to support DS. All perfectly fine. However, when it is shown that joebo has a biased opinion, he responds with
    "I've received free product from a lot of companies and in return have provided negative feedback on these companies."
    Which is obviously untrue, shown by his comment 35 minutes earlier.

    But all this is in good fun, so who really cares?
  

  
 

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