Supps to help with confidence

[MashedPotato]

Hey guys,

Im having problems being assertive right now (low self esteem, alot of stress etc) and I was wondering if there is anything that can help with confidence/anti-anxiety.

Im seeing my doc tomorrow and I know he will prescribe something, but is there anything (non-expensive-pharamaceutical) that helps with anxiety/boosts confidence.

Ive tried phenibut with no luck, so any help would be appreciated. I dont want to go the medicine route if there are any supps that help boost confidence.

Thanks all!

 

[SilentBob187]

I'm in a similar boat as you Mashed, the best thing for me has been lifting. I'm interested in seeing what the community suggests.

 

[sbrb12898]

test booster would help with aggresiveness and it might give u some more confindence. just a suggestion

 

[AtomSmasher]

sorry to hear about your prob mash. I mega dose fish oil and for me when i ingest a lot of omega fatty acids my mood seems to greatly improve. Good luck man hope you find something that works for you.

 

[goslamacamel]

Hey guys,

Im having problems being assertive right now (low self esteem, alot of stress etc) and I was wondering if there is anything that can help with confidence/anti-anxiety.

Im seeing my doc tomorrow and I know he will prescribe something, but is there anything (non-expensive-pharamaceutical) that helps with anxiety/boosts confidence.

Ive tried phenibut with no luck, so any help would be appreciated. I dont want to go the medicine route if there are any supps that help boost confidence.

Thanks all!

Same as me, never taking prescription meds for it as a permanent solution though (I don't think I will at least). Actually I don't have a problem with confidence. Only supplements that have produced a noticeable anti-anxiety effect for me are the occasional Phenibut (2x/week at 2g before bed and 1g upon waking) and Rhodiola rosea (2 months on 2 weeks off).

I can't completely tell if moderate-dosed Fish Oil has had a positive impact, but I'd have to say it probably had a slight benefit at 5-6g/day. I've also started taking DHEA in the mornings when testosterone should be rising, and I think this has helped also, but it's only been less than a week so it's too early to tell.

As for prescription drugs, Hydrocodone annihilated anxiety when I took it (obviously can't get this for anxiety problems). And I tried Xanax one time and absolutely hated it, it made me irritable and I had no enjoyment of anything.

 

[MashedPotato]

Thanks guys. Ive heard of Kava before, but dont know if anyone has tried that?

going to a psychiatrist is so expensive, but for the sake of living my life how I want it, without hesitating at certain opportunities just because of anxiety and lack of confidence is unacceptable to me.

Dont get me wrong i can interact with people ok, but asking someone for something, or asking a question in college class...takes about 15 minutes of preparation lol.

Basically it comes down to a lack of confidence. Events in my life have just worsened that, so if there I was hoping there would be something to help, rather than medicines.

 

[Dancebot 2000]

Tyrosine during the day and 5-HTP at night ensures a high functioning day for me. I don't know if I'd describe it as confidence, but having all my neurotransmitters in order makes me confident in my ability to be social and what not. I like to take them before auditions.

 

[MOHAWKA]

turning to supplements for a matter like this will most likely only lead to frustration and more anxiety. Dont take the easy and temporary escape from this problem, this matter can be solved on your own. If I were in this situation I would search for something that I enjoy doing and that I am good at, something that I can receive a feeling of accomplishment from. For me personally, it is lifting; as I pass other kids on campus I think to myself, "these people have no idea what I do in the gym, these people will never know how it feels to be this in shape;" but i dont just think it, i know it. I feel like I have something over everyone I see, and that gives me confidence. So if lifting doesnt do it for you, you could try finding an additional activity perhaps and excelling at it.

 

[MashedPotato]

turning to supplements for a matter like this will most likely only lead to frustration and more anxiety. Dont take the easy and temporary escape from this problem, this matter can be solved on your own. If I were in this situation I would search for something that I enjoy doing and that I am good at, something that I can receive a feeling of accomplishment from. For me personally, it is lifting; as I pass other kids on campus I think to myself, "these people have no idea what I do in the gym, these people will never know how it feels to be this in shape;" but i dont just think it, i know it. I feel like I have something over everyone I see, and that gives me confidence. So if lifting doesnt do it for you, you could try finding an additional activity perhaps and excelling at it.

Bro I wont lie, lifting does increase my confidence, but this is deep rooted, something I cant fix by simply finding a task that makes me feel good.

 

[de1060]

hey mashed, i've been there.

I agree somewhat with not trying to supp your anxiety away because there is neither a pill nor powder that can make life easy. but if you live a healthy life, you know, you exercise regularly (why else would you be on this board?) and you aren't balls deep in substance abuse, then it's possible that you're dealing with something a bit more abstract, maybe even a bit more complex than just boosting your test.

I've found that when i'm down, second guessing myself, no confidence and such, increasing my androgens only worsen the situation. i mean look at it like this: if you find that you're beating up on yourself, increasing your aggression will only cause you to beat on yourself harder. if your lifting is going well, and you're able to interact with others well, then it might be good for you to examine not what makes you feel better but what makes you feel worse.

as for the psychiatrist, i would, if you can, see a psychologist instead. what's the difference? well, the difference is that one is an M.D. and the other has to get approval from an M.D. before they can prescribe you medication. i've found in the past that when i have talked to psychiatrist that they are quick to write you a script. conversely, my experience with psychologists has been more geared toward trying to improve mood by working on behaviors and methods that help you to better cope and even eliminate the causes of your anxiety.

obviously this is not a professional opinion, but i have quite a bit of experience (i'm sorry to say).

anyhoo, i hope you feel better man

continue rocking:head:

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Testosterone Propionate should/might take care of your current assertiveness/anxiety issues... Not to mention, it'll get you jacked.. lol

 

[MOHAWKA]

dang, well i hope u get this one solved man!

 

[WireJim]

I have no supplement advice for you but I will tell you this. There have been times when I was depressed. Not just feeling down one day, but not eating or sleeping or leaving the house. Just sitting inside with the shades drawn and not wanting to do anything for days at a time. I don't know what you have going on, but these little steps have helped me...

1. Force yourself to go outside and do something. Anything. Walk your dog, pull weeds, drive across town for no good reason.

2. Exercise. You probably do, that's why you are here. But keep it up.

3. Eat. My single biggest problem is I lose my appetite completely. Once I start forcing myself to eat, I start feeling better.

4. Listen to music that isn't angry. I know this sounds weird, but I throw in Christian rock. It becomes difficult to have bad thoughts when you are being forcefed positive lyrics. I have music going somewhere around me 24/7 so this is pretty effective. Leave the Korn and Pantera for the gym.

5. Unload everything on a friend. I have a friend that knows more dirt about me than anyone else. I have called him from work and at 3am because I couldn't sleep. He always listens to everything I say and gives me solid advice when I ask for it.

6. Separate yourself as much as possible from whatever is causing you stress. Anything that triggers those stressful thoughts needs to be boxed up and put in the back of the basement, literally or figuratively. You can't get your mind straight if you are constantly rehashing stressful crap.

These are just things that I have found that work personally. You'll make through and you will learn from it.

 

[MashedPotato]

Thanks guys. I think i'll try to see both pyschologist and physchiatrist.

I can feel the wave of depression sink in more every day and i'd rather act now than wait until its too late. Im already finding it hard just to get my butt to the gym, and even then im giving 70%. My college is also talking a hit from lack of study and anxiety about classes.

Normally i can keep on top of everything no matter what, but yeah I guess its best to seek real help rather than chance a supp might make me feel 10% better.

Thanks guys!

(depression and anxiety are worse than any physical pain I swear! - wish i could just take an asprin and it would get better lol)

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Thanks guys. I think i'll try to see both pyschologist and physchiatrist.

I can feel the wave of depression sink in more every day and i'd rather act now than wait until its too late. Im already finding it hard just to get my butt to the gym, and even then im giving 70%. My college is also talking a hit from lack of study and anxiety about classes.

Normally i can keep on top of everything no matter what, but yeah I guess its best to seek real help rather than chance a supp might make me feel 10% better.

Thanks guys!

(depression and anxiety are worse than any physical pain I swear! - wish i could just take an asprin and it would get better lol)

Seriously.. Test prop will make you feel better :thumbsup:.

 

[WireJim]

(depression and anxiety are worse than any physical pain I swear! - wish i could just take an asprin and it would get better lol)

The mind is a powerful thing...I know what you mean. You feel like there is no escape. I think you are doing the right thing. You have to do something different if you want different results.

 

[MashedPotato]

Seriously.. Test prop will make you feel better :thumbsup:.

lol bro....seriously a temporary solution.

 

[Rodja]

The best thing I have ever taken for increased mood and confidence is a stack of HEAT, ActivateX, and RPM. An hour or so after dosing and I feel as though I can take on the world.

 

[MashedPotato]

The mind is a powerful thing...I know what you mean. You feel like there is no escape. I think you are doing the right thing. You have to do something different if you want different results.

Exactly man. If i dont act now my physical health will suffer also and all those hard years of work will be wasted. If someone could make a pill that eased the pain in the mind, he or she would be a trillionaire.

The mind is so powerful and thus mental health is so very important both emotionally and physcially.

 

[BigNutz]

Nothing, I repeat nothing boosts confidence like a sloppy B.J. from a cute little college chick. :bow28:

But seriously, as far as supps go, PEA makes me feel very assertive, and talkative and is an excellent mood lifter. The weird thing is, if taken alone it seems to sedate you, and wasnt very pleasant, and in some preperations (cytolean for example) it gave me a dizzy feeling. That said, Designer Supplements Basic Cuts, which also happens to be very inexpensive, makes me feel great on even one pill. Wonderfully underated supplement for sure.

The other one I would suggest is RPM. That stuff is just amazing, sustained energy all day with absolutely no downside. They really got that one right.

1 basic cuts and 2 RPM's puts me in a great mood.

Another thing I can tell you is, and this may sound crazy to some, but when your young you tend to take life WAY too seriously and are very unrealisticly idealistic. That all goes with age (im 35). I was a depressed, anxious, misunderstood 23 year old for sure. But into my 30's Im a completely different person. Anxiety gone, hardly ever down, enjoy quiet pursuits more and pleasures of the mind as well as the aforementioned groin. LOL.

What Im saying is, hang in there and trust me, life gets better.

To quote a great philosopher "I love high school chicks, the older I get, they all stay the same age".

 

[bpmartyr]

Do you do much cardio? You may give running a shot. Endorphins are released during long, continuous workouts, when the level of intensity is between moderate and high, and breathing is difficult.

Love me a good ol' runners high.

 

[Rodja]

Do you do much cardio? You may give running a shot. Endorphins are released during long, continuous workouts, when the level of intensity is between moderate and high, and breathing is difficult.

Love me a good ol' runners high.

Especially if done outside. Serotonin+endorphins=:cheers:

 

[skunkman]

One thing that others have touched but may need to be emphasized is talking to other people. Specifically someone that you have known for a period of time that will take your words and give quality feedback.

Personally I would never go to a random person that is supposedly qualified, to determine my mental problems.

It is a good thing to have a group of MEN that you are close with and can discuss your issues with. Men specifically because.......well there are some things that women don't understand. When I was 16 I asked a few friends or "mentors" (being a mentor was an important part the qualifications) if they would mind if I could run ideas and issues etc by them. To this day I am in contact via email and phone. I seriously don't think I could have made it past certain parts of my life without this kind of non-family support group.

I don't think that a shrink is going to be the BEST way to handle your confidence issue.

To each his own though.

Oh and one other thing to consider is that anyone who thinks that they have a mental health issues needs to take a step back and realize that it's all in their head. Literally.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

lol bro....seriously a temporary solution.

You're first post led me to believe it was a temporary problem.. Sorry I wasn't any real help..

 

[MashedPotato]

You're first post led me to believe it was a temporary problem.. Sorry I wasn't any real help..

lol bro, it kind of is and it kind of isnt. Recent events have exagerated it by 10 fold.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

lol bro, it kind of is and it kind of isnt. Recent events have exagerated it by 10 fold.

Yeah I read a bit about all that.. Whatever you do, hope it all works out man. Anxiety is NOO fun, at all. I somewhat can relate there (social anxiety for most of my life, bleh). Good luck buddy!

 

[MashedPotato]

Yeah I read a bit about all that.. Whatever you do, hope it all works out man. Anxiety is NOO fun, at all. I somewhat can relate there (social anxiety for most of my life, bleh). Good luck buddy!

Thanks bro.

 

[KSMA]

Man o man I feel like I am reading my own thoughts MP.
I go through some hardcore bouts of depression and anxiety. Some so bad I think my wife has just about had enough at times with my bs. but she hangs in there.
Things that have helped me:
1. Working out..duh.
2. My wife. chance to vent or share negative emotions with someone who cares is always good.
3. When i get real bad I get a journal and jot down feelings, weird thoughts, etc. and go back later and look at them and evaluate/think about their sources and how I can avoid getting to that point again.

Do you know much about seasonal affective disorder? Obviously i dont know details, but outside stressors could be making something like this worse.

Or maybe you just need a vacation? Get away from everything for a while.

*EDIT* Just saw the post bout your wife....hate to hear that bro. Rules out SAD tho. I dont know how close you are to your parents, but when wife wasnt an option for me it was the ol mom.

 

[Matt Skiba]

St. John's wort helps with depression and neurotransmitters.

I'll also agree with the person who stated that an activity you are really into will help you like lifting. I personally enjoy playing music, and have found that the sense of accomplishment even helps the libido.

 

[Australian made]

Relora

 

[ImJ2x]

I'm probably the last guy who should attempt to help, as I've always been confident, verging on cocky (sometimes obnoxiously so). But I'm so awesome, I think I can help you anyway, lol...
The only supp I can think of that might help, and is affordable enough to take everyday, is DHEA. But at your age, I doubt you need any. But it wouldn't hurt to buy a small bottle, and dose it maybe 50mg ED in the morning, just to see if it helps.
If you end up trying some prescription anti-depressants, I'd recommend Paxil. My ex-GF was seriously bi-polar, and Paxil worked great for her (when she actually took it). It didn't turn her into an emotionless zombie; it merely "took the edge off" of her moodiness. (Do you even have the "manic" part, or are you simply depressed?)
Beyond the chemistry, I really have to agree with MOHAWKA. Find something that you're truly passionate about (for me, it's mountaineering), and throw yourself into it. As you begin to excel at it, your confidence will grow. And it will simply make you happy; you'll feel good.
I also want to agree with BigNutz (appropriate name, lol) about hooking up with some girls. Nothing makes a guy feel more confident than banging chicks. (Except maybe kicking some ass in a bar fight, but I don't recommend that, lol.) And the cool thing about getting laid is, it gives you exactly the kind of confidence that girls find attractive. So it becomes progressively easier to get the second girl; and then the third; fourth, etc... And it's perfectly OK if that first girl isn't exactly Alba -- they will become better-looking as you improve your skillz. And guess what? You'll eventually find one that you won't want to discard -- you'll actually like her, lol. When you find that girl, and have a long-term, fulfilling relationship, all the confidence you've been gradually building will mature into peaceful self-assuredness. You'll know you're a decent guy with passionate hobbies, and interesting stories to tell.
So...

Step 1. Buy some cheap DHEA.
Step 2. Find a hobby that will take your mind off of how crappy everything is.
Step 3. Seduce some average-looking girl. (And wrap your junk, duh.)

That's really all you need -- 3 simple steps that will forever change your life. You're welcome. (I should write a book.)
-J2x out.

[EDIT: I just saw KSMA reference some "post about your wife," but I can't find that. So I'm not sure how applicable my babe-banging advice is? Too bad -- that was my strongest stuff.]

 

[Gtarzan81]

Mashed, we will get you through this time. You might be blaming ourself for this.
This is NOT your fault.
This is NOT your fault.
This is NOT your fault.

Saturday, your taking the day off, and going paintballing with a group of us. I'm not taking no on this one.

I cant imagine, the pain, anguish, and doubt your going through right now. We will see you through this.

 

[Colden]

I have no supplement advice for you but I will tell you this. There have been times when I was depressed. Not just feeling down one day, but not eating or sleeping or leaving the house. Just sitting inside with the shades drawn and not wanting to do anything for days at a time. I don't know what you have going on, but these little steps have helped me...

1. Force yourself to go outside and do something. Anything. Walk your dog, pull weeds, drive across town for no good reason.

2. Exercise. You probably do, that's why you are here. But keep it up.

3. Eat. My single biggest problem is I lose my appetite completely. Once I start forcing myself to eat, I start feeling better.

4. Listen to music that isn't angry. I know this sounds weird, but I throw in Christian rock. It becomes difficult to have bad thoughts when you are being forcefed positive lyrics. I have music going somewhere around me 24/7 so this is pretty effective. Leave the Korn and Pantera for the gym.

5. Unload everything on a friend. I have a friend that knows more dirt about me than anyone else. I have called him from work and at 3am because I couldn't sleep. He always listens to everything I say and gives me solid advice when I ask for it.

6. Separate yourself as much as possible from whatever is causing you stress. Anything that triggers those stressful thoughts needs to be boxed up and put in the back of the basement, literally or figuratively. You can't get your mind straight if you are constantly rehashing stressful crap.

These are just things that I have found that work personally. You'll make through and you will learn from it.

Absolutely!! Great advise Wire.

I myself suffered with major depression for several years, actually many many years. I always found myself hoping it would be better but never doing what it took to actually get better. I have had some wonderful individuals in my life that held me up when I couldn't stand and I am grateful for all of them, but ultimately it fell on me. It may be a rough road but you have to really figure out what makes you feel good about you.

All of the greatest advise is just that... advise. You have to be able to really believe that you can change your mood... Really believe it!!! Find the things that you know make you feel good and hold on to them. think of them every chance you get.

I know its hard not to think about the negative, but you have to do everything you can to remove that from your life. And the only way to do that is to fill your head with positive. Anything and everything that is positive... think about it and think about it often. What you perceive, you will receive. I know it sounds cliche, but believe me I am speaking from years of experience with this. It may seem cliche, but it really does work. Find the positive, keep the positive, everything will begin to take care of itself.

Keep your head up man, you will get there.

 

[Nightwanderer]

purely for confidence? pick up a pheromone cologne, do your best to seem friendly, and go somewhere populated. The first day I used chikara cologne the smell seemed to annoy me a bit, but after the first day it put me in a better mood just knowing I'm wearing it. If nothing else, the effort in trying to be 'approachable' so the phero's can do their job, will help improve your social skills and help condition you to be able to push past depression when having to interact with other people. Just be aware that seeming intimidating, angry, or withdrawn will cause the cologne to do more harm than good. pheromones are merely an amplifier for whatever energy you're putting out.

 

[de1060]

One thing that others have touched but may need to be emphasized is talking to other people. .

It is a good thing to have a group of MEN that you are close with and can discuss your issues with.

Oh and one other thing to consider is that anyone who thinks that they have a mental health issues needs to take a step back and realize that it's all in their head. Literally.

I hear you on having a strong group of piers to vent to. Some of your friends will try to "fix you" if you tell them something like this. and i think that if you're looking for that type of thing, a professional is the way to go. but there is nothing more comforting than a friend or family member who you can just talk to without having to worry about them looking at it like a cry for help.

Not to be a d**k or anything, but "all in your head" is counter productive. i mean if Mashed was out here talking about an ear infection, wouldn't that be the same? You might be kidding around, seriously i'm not trying to give anyone sheet or anything; it's just that when you're having trouble with your mind or mood, someone telling you that it's all in your head can make it seem like there's not anything REAL that's wrong with you.

but you're right: to each his own.

 

[skunkman]

I didn't really emphasize it in my last post but the group I was referring to are not just "friends". It is some what hard to explain. I think of them as friends yes but they are, lets say, the authority (imo) on certain issues hence I value their advice.

I am not trying to start an argument here but I still stand by last comment. People have successfully dealt with their problems (thats what Mash has, according to him) for thousands of years without shrinks. It's not only counter productive to your wallet but better results can be seen through meditation and IF necessary self-medication.

I do believe that he stated that it boils down to confidence. He has already determined what his problem is. Why pay lots of money to talk to someone when there are thousands of people around a given person that if given the chance can very possibly bring some enlightenment? If Mash went out and connected with 5 people on a non superficial level everyday for a week he would be boosting his confidence and lessening his anxiety.

 

[ImJ2x]

In my 46 years, some of the craziest fvckers I've met have been psychiatrists. But I'm also sure there are some pretty good ones out there. But how do you find them?

 

[diminuendo]

Run as hard as you can for 45 minutes and then go to the tanning bed. I would say lay out in the sun, but not all of us live in Hawaii.

If you don't feel better try Haagen Daaz rum raisin.

 

[diminuendo]

Psychiatrists have the highest rate of suicide of any physician by far. Just as I would not hire a trainer that is not big and ripped...

 

[SilentBob187]

Psychiatrists have the highest rate of suicide of any physician by far. Just as I would not hire a trainer that is not big and ripped...

FOR THE WIN!! I hate it when trainers look to be in same/worse shape than most of the people in the gym.

 

[de1060]

Psychiatrists have the highest rate of suicide of any physician by far. Just as I would not hire a trainer that is not big and ripped...

funny. it used to be dentists.

and yeah: what is up with chubby trainers these days?

maybe i misread. but it sounded like Mashed has been down long enough to think it's something more than just circumstances. no confidence-sure, that's something that doesn't necessarily warrant professional help, but anxiety, once it reaches a point, might be a sign that something other than life-circumstances are the problem.

and yes, it is a little odd to meet someone and then tell them your most intimate thoughts. but if you allow it to happen, that situation can really free your mind from things like fear of ridicule, or the ever present possibility that people you are close to might look at you in a different way after you tell them something. You can tell a shrink anything, and if you feel better, or you don't like him, you can just never see him again. not always the case with friends, family, mentors, etc...

not arguing; not even a little. just trying to be helpful s'all.

 

[jmh80]

Saturday, your taking the day off, and going paintballing with a group of us. I'm not taking no on this one.

I cant imagine, the pain, anguish, and doubt your going through right now. We will see you through this.

:clap2:
:cheers:

Awesome idea! Way to step up Gtarzan!

Reps bro.

 

[LG Sciences]

Honestly, not to pimp our own products, but Methyl Masterdrol V2 has a ton of neuro stimulating properties and may really help with confidence. 5aReduced hormones give that "male" feeling and increased focus and agression. If you want to try a bottle, let me know, I will send you one for free to try.

 

[ImJ2x]

Honestly, not to pimp our own products, but Methyl Masterdrol V2 has a ton of neuro stimulating properties and may really help with confidence. 5aReduced hormones give that "male" feeling and increased focus and agression. If you want to try a bottle, let me know, I will send you one for free to try.

That's very cool. Makes me respect you and your company a bit more. Way to step up, LG. :clap2:

 

[BigNutz]

FOR THE WIN!! I hate it when trainers look to be in same/worse shape than most of the people in the gym.

LOL! Right. It must go back to that "everyones a winner", politically correct America we live in now. My gym is like that, youve got fat personal trainers. They do these write ups that they post on the wall, this one guys is all like, "I will show you how to diet correctly and keep your body fat in the single digits", meanwhile hes got a chicken wing hanging out his mouth. How can you expect someone to pay you to get in awesome shape, when there not in shape. But they do it.

 

[diminuendo]

I work out at 24 hour fitness in Honolulu (it is the only decent gym). There was this obnoxious trainer that used to work there that was in love with this girl I work with. Well, he was always giving me pointers on lifting...but only when I was working out with her. One day he comes and says to me "so are you ready to get serious and buy some training time", so I said "nah, I am already pretty good at eating cake."

I almost felt bad about the hurt look on his face, but then I remembered that I am an as* hole.

 

[LG Sciences]

There are a rash of pretty chubby personal trainers out there. The reason I offered up a product is because this guy sounds really down right now and I know that space. Chicks are usually at the root of it in some way, shape or form.

 

[jmh80]

That is the case for him, LG.

Gtarzan should be taking care of him today. I think a supp might help - but a better root cause fix would be for him to get out, get his mind off the wife, and have some fun with the guys.

 

[WireJim]

Chicks are usually at the root of it in some way, shape or form.

Man, that's the truth! (For me at least)

 

[LG Sciences]

I could just tell by skimming his post. Women are particularily mean at the end of a relationship. Pretending you don't matter, going out and banging a bunch of guys etc... That **** hurts! My FEMALE friend explained it the best...she said "Women know that ignoring you is the most hurtful thing. Ever hear of the rat study? They took three groups of rats and seperated them. One group they gave a ton of food, petted and treated nicely. The second group the underfed, shocked and put in poor conditions. The third group they gave them enough food, a decent home but ignored them. The first group lived. The second group lived and the third group died. Women know that the best way to hurt you is to act like you don't matter"

I am a real male rights advocate. I think men have been getting the short end of the stick for over 20 years now. We are devalued, minimized and treated like second class citizens who's lives don't matter. We are expected to pay for everything, die on command then step aside when a woman feels that the relationship isn't working for her anymore. That would be enough, but women can and usually are NASTY at the end of a relationship and men just keep going back trying to make things right...just look at our songs:

"Baby come back. You can blame it all on me. I was wrong and I just can't live without you."

**** that bullshit. Sorry, but it's time men start understanding how we have been brainwashed over the past 30 years.