[paulygon]

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

Yes, you could do that, but if you already have the max CLA, more CLA still might be of benefit too. How much per serving anyway?

-Pp

I haven't started the stack yet, I am still trying to get everything set with my diet, and also if this stack is actually decent. So I have no idea yet what my dose would be, however, do you think going with both would be worth it, or just go with the EE????

What is the recommended dose for CLA?

Basic question- Go with EE CLA, just plain CLA, or both?

[jasonschaffin]

So if the benefit is the taste, what is the benefit over a nicely priced CLA pill like nutra's in bulk?

[Dancebot 2000]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin

So if the benefit is the taste, what is the benefit over a nicely priced CLA pill like nutra's in bulk?

I think he was referencing the taste improvement in EFAs, not CLA. In that same quote, he explains why it is better (no hate, I was confused at first).

[Ninsha]

I hate to be negative in a thread that seems to offer something positive. I want to believe that this product works, because like everyone else that has taken interest in it...I would love to have a product that had some great science backing it's claims...especially in the world of cutting fat. However, I am the king of playing Devil's Advocate, and this is what I found after reading the articles you supplied:

In your first reference, they state very clearly that "a number of human studies suggest that CLA supplementation has no effect on body weight and insulin sensetivity" it also goes on to say that "the effect of CLA on fat deposition are marginal and more equivocal as compared to the results observed in animal studies." He goes on to explain that the results in mice were extremely positive, while the results in Pigs were inconsistent, and the results in humans were marginal

The comments of the first study invalidate the value of the second study, as it is already known that the effect on mice is significant, while the effect on humans is marginal.


If I understand the 3rd reference correctly, they cut out adipose tissue and injected it with TNF-A. However the study just says that "varying concentrations" of TNF-A were applied for up to 24 h. If I understand this correctly, this study was not done on a living human, it was done completely outside the environment of the body, and we have no idea what level of success "varying concentrations" yielded, and for what portion of 24 hours they had to be exposed to get that yield of 5-25%, the bottom end of which is near to the control culture...it just doesn't seem like a very well documented study...but maybe I'm missing something.

[Dancebot 2000]

Originally Posted by Ninsha

I hate to be negative in a thread that seems to offer something positive. I want to believe that this product works, because like everyone else that has taken interest in it...I would love to have a product that had some great science backing it's claims...especially in the world of cutting fat. However, I am the king of playing Devil's Advocate, and this is what I found after reading the articles you supplied:

In your first reference, they state very clearly that "a number of human studies suggest that CLA supplementation has no effect on body weight and insulin sensetivity" it also goes on to say that "the effect of CLA on fat deposition are marginal and more equivocal as compared to the results observed in animal studies." He goes on to explain that the results in mice were extremely positive, while the results in Pigs were inconsistent, and the results in humans were marginal

The comments of the first study invalidate the value of the second study, as it is already known that the effect on mice is significant, while the effect on humans is marginal.


If I understand the 3rd reference correctly, they cut out adipose tissue and injected it with TNF-A. However the study just says that "varying concentrations" of TNF-A were applied for up to 24 h. If I understand this correctly, this study was not done on a living human, it was done completely outside the environment of the body, and we have no idea what level of success "varying concentrations" yielded, and for what portion of 24 hours they had to be exposed to get that yield of 5-25%, the bottom end of which is near to the control culture...it just doesn't seem like a very well documented study...but maybe I'm missing something.

I appreciate the devil's advocate more than anyone, it keeps us all in check. With the first reference, I believe that when they said it showed no effect on body weight or insulin sensitivity, they were pointing out that inactive CLA was being used.

Your point about the 3rd reference might be valid, however.

[paulygon]

What can't you take this product with? I am about to start a cutting cycle and would like to know if I can replace or take this in conjunction with the rest of these supplements:

A. DCP
B. Levithan Reloaded
C. Drive
D. Fish Oil
E. Flax Seed Oil
F. Sesamin Oil
G. Max CLA
H. MVP- Multi
I. BCAAs
J. Beta Alanine

I would guess that i could get rid of the Max CLA right? and Just replace it with the EE CLA

Or should I take both the regular CLA, and the EE CLA? Also what do you recommend for doses with both the CLA and the EE CLA? I haven't started the stack yet and I want to know the dosage and the timing.

Thanks

[MentalTwitch]

I think CLA is only shown to be very effective at 11g a day. I think Dsade did some messin with it and that was found to be a sweet spot.

I also have heard my entire life once a fat cell is created it can only be "emptied" per say.

Ill be sticking by though cause i also plan to cut in a few months and have never tried a Pp supp but have always heard good things.

[paulygon]

Pp supp? Sorry i am new and not up on the lingo.

Also what is the timing of the 11grams? How do you space it throughout the day?

[Ninsha]

Pp = Primordial Performance. The name of the supp company

[jasonschaffin]

Originally Posted by Dancebot 2000

I think he was referencing the taste improvement in EFAs, not CLA. In that same quote, he explains why it is better (no hate, I was confused at first).

Yeah I guess I worded that bad. It sounds like it will get into the body faster. But is the speed at which it gets there even important? If, like the EPA/DHA it is less bioavailable than I would rather take my pills.

[paulygon]

So what does everyone think so far? I mean I have read through the posts and it seems that everyone is going to at least try this product. Do you think it is work cutting out regular Max CLA, and going only with the CLA EE? Or do you think they can be taken together?

[Dancebot 2000]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin

Yeah I guess I worded that bad. It sounds like it will get into the body faster. But is the speed at which it gets there even important? If, like the EPA/DHA it is less bioavailable than I would rather take my pills.

Actually, I was wrong. He did mean that the ethyl ester was mainly to make the CLA more palpable. It may have the other afore mentioned benefits, but this is the main reason.

[Primordial Perf]

Originally Posted by Ninsha

I hate to be negative in a thread that seems to offer something positive. I want to believe that this product works, because like everyone else that has taken interest in it...I would love to have a product that had some great science backing it's claims...especially in the world of cutting fat. However, I am the king of playing Devil's Advocate, and this is what I found after reading the articles you supplied:

In your first reference, they state very clearly that "a number of human studies suggest that CLA supplementation has no effect on body weight and insulin sensetivity" it also goes on to say that "the effect of CLA on fat deposition are marginal and more equivocal as compared to the results observed in animal studies." He goes on to explain that the results in mice were extremely positive, while the results in Pigs were inconsistent, and the results in humans were marginal

The comments of the first study invalidate the value of the second study, as it is already known that the effect on mice is significant, while the effect on humans is marginal.


If I understand the 3rd reference correctly, they cut out adipose tissue and injected it with TNF-A. However the study just says that "varying concentrations" of TNF-A were applied for up to 24 h. If I understand this correctly, this study was not done on a living human, it was done completely outside the environment of the body, and we have no idea what level of success "varying concentrations" yielded, and for what portion of 24 hours they had to be exposed to get that yield of 5-25%, the bottom end of which is near to the control culture...it just doesn't seem like a very well documented study...but maybe I'm missing something.

Now ninsha, you can’t be a devil advocate until you read all 30 references. ;-)

Seriously though, there is so much research on CLA that you really have to look at a variety of studies before making an concise decision. If you exmine all reaserach you will find that CLA does infact have a positive impact on body composition in humans. The point of the first reference was an evaluation of over 18 human studies with CLA, and this is a quote directly from their summery -

“In our analyses, we were able to focus the studies to show that CLA does indeed cause a modest, but significant reduction in fat loss of about 0.09 kg/wk relative to subjects in placebo groups. Although this effect is seemingly of little consequence, it is larger than and in the opposite direction to the current trend for Americans to gain an average of 0.4 kg total weight each year.”

From – (BTW, I could not find your qoute in this reff)

Efficacy of conjugated linoleic acid for reducing fat mass: a meta-analysis in humans
Leah D Whigham, Abigail C Watras, and Dale A Schoeller
Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, May 2007; 85: 1203 - 1211.

Plus, all the claims that are made in our product write up are backed by legitimate studies that have been done with humans that show 4-5lbs of fat loss without any changes in diet or exercise. These results are quite significant in the human research world. Just a few -

Conjugated linoleic acid reduces body fat and prevents seasonal weight gain among overweight adults
Abigail C Watras, et al.
FASEB J, Mar 2006; 20: A582

Conjugated linoleic acid supplementation for 1 y reduces body fat mass in healthy overweight humans.
Gaullier JM, et al.
Am J Clin Nutr 2004;79:1118 –25

Conjugated Linoleic Acid Reduces Body Fat Mass in Overweight and Obese Humans
Henrietta Blankson, et al.
J. Nutr., Dec 2000; 130: 2943 – 2948
-Pp

[Primordial Perf]

Originally Posted by paulygon

I haven't started the stack yet, I am still trying to get everything set with my diet, and also if this stack is actually decent. So I have no idea yet what my dose would be, however, do you think going with both would be worth it, or just go with the EE????

What is the recommended dose for CLA?

Basic question- Go with EE CLA, just plain CLA, or both?

I was saying that if you already purchased the max CLA then just use it. If not, then the CLA ethyl ester may be a more ecomonical choice, both for you and our local AM economy.

Anecdotal reports tell us that there is benefit from going as high as 15 g/day for maximum fat loss with CLA but I would guess there would be a higher likely hood of side effects at that dose.

I personaly wouldnt go over 7 g/day (3 servings of CLA ethyl ester)

-Pp

[diminuendo]

There is a huge thread from years ago over at avantlabs forum. From what I remember, the conjecture was that CLA acted through something other than TNF. After all fish oil seems to aid fat loss, and it suppresses TNF (alpha and beta I think) and several interleukins.

I have used CLA for quite some time, but never for a cut. As an endo/meso I find that they don't do much for a cut.

I do however swear by them on a bulk for minimizing fat gain. Anecdotal personal experience makes me think it up-regulates GLUT-4 transcription factors or something similar. I feel more extended muscle fullness after a carb-up with CLA on board and over time get less fat gain. Again, this is all ultimately based on ignorance and superstition for me, so take it with a grain of salt.

[paulygon]

diminuendo, you would stick with just a plain Max CLA, or a bulk CLA instead of CLA EE?

How long have to taken CLA?