powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    ecdysterone has some things suggesting a possible nitrogen retaining effect but nothing showing any clear benefits in athletes.

    its been around for a long time and reviews are mixed (not that reviews tell us that much). a controlled clinical would be nice
    funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...


  2. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...
    There has been a controlled clinical of 6OXO and the results were pretty good. 11OXO just came out so give it a bit.

    I understand people's skepticism of PA coming on here and talking down certain supplements, but here is something most people seem to be missing. He could just as easily sell these substances himself and make the exact same claims, and with the respect the Ergopharm name carries, he could make a fortune off of it. He also has a stellar lab, unlike most companies, and makes most of his products in house. He does not chose to do that, why I am not going to guess at his motives, but you people who think that he is just trying to bash competitors to increases his sales are not really thinking this through. There are very few patents granted in the supplement industry so anything he bashes, he could easily sell himself. While I do not think his motives are entirely pure, I think his reasoning is hard to criticize, he is just using the best available scientific evidence and if there is a lack of evidence supporting any of these companies claims he is pointing that out as well.

    I will also note that I do purchase Bulk Powerfull and find that it does help with Libido, as far as muscle building, who knows, there are so many variable s with my diet, training, other supplementation that it is almost impossible to say.
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  3. Many companies lack the intellegence/resources to produce real products based on more than just obsecure studies.....and no Dr. Marvin Hauer aka lead developer from Muscle-Tech dosen't count

    In turn, a lot of these companies look up what's hot, get the product, copy the ingredient list, put some cool packaging/fancy name, then re-sell.

  4. i was mainly refering to that 6-MU, i would like to see more on it. Im done with challenging PA, he's cool i like him here and apprieciate his opinions and insight. peace.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...
    we have funded two clinical studies to date on 6-oxo and have funded studies in the past on 4-ad, cyclo-4-ad, and 1-ad as well as other products that we have yet to bring to market

    other products that we sell have ingredients in them that have already had clinical studies done on them also by others

    thanks for the attitude though man, very nice
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Many companies lack the intellegence/resources to produce real products based on more than just obsecure studies.....and no Dr. Marvin Hauer aka lead developer from Muscle-Tech dosen't count

    In turn, a lot of these companies look up what's hot, get the product, copy the ingredient list, put some cool packaging/fancy name, then re-sell.

    exactly

    i see stuff from years and years ago get recycled under new names with claims even bolder than before all the time.

    L-dopa with plant sterols is a perfect case

  7. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    i was mainly refering to that 6-MU, i would like to see more on it. Im done with challenging PA, he's cool i like him here and apprieciate his opinions and insight. peace.

    i have a ton of abstracts on the stuff, most done in russia. its a pretty obscure ingredient in a product that we are gonna discontinue. i admit it is no miracle supplement but it is good for optimizing RNA synthesis, which is an often overlooked aspect of muscle recovery and growth

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    we have funded two clinical studies to date on 6-oxo and have funded studies in the past on 4-ad, cyclo-4-ad, and 1-ad as well as other products that we have yet to bring to market

    other products that we sell have ingredients in them that have already had clinical studies done on them also by others

    thanks for the attitude though man, very nice
    i thought that 6oxo would have to have the clinicals and the other popular hormonal stuff. anyway glad you enjoyed the attitude. You do the same from time to time dont you?
    its all good.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    exactly

    i see stuff from years and years ago get recycled under new names with claims even bolder than before all the time.

    L-dopa with plant sterols is a perfect case
    The supplement industry is the charlatans playground.

  10. Pat, as sketchy as this stuff seems, and I do sympathize with all of your sentiments...1-Carboxy is not the same as L-Dopa.

    You are of course right about L-Dopa crossing the BBB, it does so through a LNAA transporter which is why it cant be taken with protein. This is documented, not sure why USP is stating otherwise.

    I have plenty of experience with L-Dopa, and again, you are exactly right...it f'd up my sleep and gave me creepy, twisted dreams. When taking 250mg pre-bed, it would cause me to wake up 15-20 times per night, in an awake-dream state.

    It works great for about 2 weeks for motivation/daytime stimulation...then stops working. 1 week off, and it starts working again. Similar to deprenyl/selegeline in motivation effects...except dep works better the longer you're on it. L-Dopa also needs to be taken with a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor...green tea extract/EGCG actually works fine...no need to go to the prescription carbidopa.

    All that being said, I've been taking bulk 1-carboxy for about 2 weeks now, and the effects are entirely different. I take a large dose before bed (2.4g) and within 30min I start yawning and become extremely relaxed. My whole life I've had a problem waking up refreshed, and every single time I've taken this the past 2 weeks, I've woken up early, 30-60min before my alarm goes off and felt extremely rested.

    Even if this does nothing for my body comp, i would take it just for the way I feel in the morning, which I've never been able to maintain aside from transient phases.

    As for daytime doses, 800mg still has a bit of a relaxing effect, whereas a good dose of L-Dopa (250mg) has a very stimulating effect.

    I was pretty skeptical about it doing anything (but it was cheap, and I'm a sucker for dopaminergics)...as my only other experience with USP was with a couple of bottles of Anabolic Pump they sent me to test, which did absolutely nothing.

    I made a post about 1-Carboxy in the Inner Circle at M&M...you've got access, check it out. It would be good to see you over there anyway. I also have my L-Dopa experience posted there somewhere.


    (This is Marc, by the way)

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    Pat, as sketchy as this stuff seems, and I do sympathize with all of your sentiments...1-Carboxy is not the same as L-Dopa.
    It isn't?

    please explain the chemical differences. what IS the stuff then if it is not L-dopa?

    a real chemical name would be nice.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I've been wondering this myself for quite some time, as well.

    pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

    I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

    2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


    bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

    I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

    2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


    bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

    Isn't a typo in the ingredients for a product fall under 'mislabeling' supplements and illegal ? Even if it is a typo it is not exactly the name of the ingredient. While 99.9% of the IUPAC nomenclature is correct, we all know a number,dash,bond location, etc makes a world difference, but by law, supplements need to have accurate labeling of their products ?

  14. I wasn't impressed with PowerFULL, and USP wasn't impressed with me for saying so...

  15. Quote Originally Posted by xjsynx View Post
    I wasn't impressed with PowerFULL, and USP wasn't impressed with me for saying so...
    you know what ? I wasn't impressed with anabolic pump either. go figure.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Isn't a typo in the ingredients for a product fall under 'mislabeling' supplements and illegal ? Even if it is a typo it is not exactly the name of the ingredient. While 99.9% of the IUPAC nomenclature is correct, we all know a number,dash,bond location, etc makes a world difference, but by law, supplements need to have accurate labeling of their products ?
    Yes you are correct, also companies are required under the FTC guidelines to list the common name of a product on the ingredient panel, not some obscure chemical name.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    usp, apn, and controlled labs all seem eerily the same to me.

    the same as in the way they come across on the internet.

    everything they have is amazing, mindblowind, incredible. all this feedback all the time

    then you have other well known companies with fantastic products but you don't see nearly as much talk about the products (i am not talking about ergo either)

    i dunno, i am just thinking out loud.
    For the most part marketing and being part of the 'inner circle'.

  18. Uh-oh...

    Maybe they weren't so far off about that BBB thing:

    1: Exp Neurol. 2005 Sep;195(1):267-71. Links
    An active transport system in the blood-brain barrier may reduce levodopa availability.Hawkins RA, Mokashi A, Simpson IA.


    Levodopa, the primary drug used to treat patients with Parkinson's disease, is transported into the brain by the facilitative amino acid transporter (L1). We present here an unanticipated discovery: levodopa may be pumped out of the brain by a Na(+)-dependent transport system that couples the naturally occurring Na(+) gradient existing between the brain's extracellular fluid and the cytoplasm of capillary endothelial cells. The activity of this system reduces the net availability of levodopa.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    Uh-oh...

    Maybe they weren't so far off about that BBB thing:

    1: Exp Neurol. 2005 Sep;195(1):267-71. Links
    An active transport system in the blood-brain barrier may reduce levodopa availability.Hawkins RA, Mokashi A, Simpson IA.


    Levodopa, the primary drug used to treat patients with Parkinson's disease, is transported into the brain by the facilitative amino acid transporter (L1). We present here an unanticipated discovery: levodopa may be pumped out of the brain by a Na(+)-dependent transport system that couples the naturally occurring Na(+) gradient existing between the brain's extracellular fluid and the cytoplasm of capillary endothelial cells. The activity of this system reduces the net availability of levodopa.

    maybe who wasn't so far off about what?

    L-dopa is a prodrug of dopamine that passess through the BBB. Anyone with half knowledge of pharmacology is quite familiar with this as it is one of the most famous drugs of the 20th century

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

    I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

    2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


    bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple
    I understand where you're coming from here, but based on the totally different subjective effects...I would be surprised.

    Unless my brain chemistry has changed since using the L-dopa, and I'm handling the same compound differently...which I suppose could be the case with what goes in and out of my brain on a daily basis.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    maybe who wasn't so far off about what?

    L-dopa is a prodrug of dopamine that passess through the BBB. Anyone with half knowledge of pharmacology is quite familiar with this as it is one of the most famous drugs of the 20th century
    Right, but the above study is demonstrating a problem with L-Dopa's sustained central bioavailibility. To say that it doesn't cross the BBB is wrong, however. I'm saying this is probably where USP got the idea to claim that it doesn't cross the BBB.

    This study is interesting to, from July of '07:

    : Pharm Res. 2007 Jul;24(7):1309-24. Epub 2007 Apr 3. Links
    Novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs containing a 2-phenyl-imidazopyridine moiety.Denora N, Laquintana V, Lopedota A, Serra M, Dazzi L, Biggio G, Pal D, Mitra AK, Latrofa A, Trapani G, Liso G.


    PURPOSE: The aim of this study was to gain insight into the feasibility of enhancing the delivery of L-Dopa and dopamine to the brain by linking these neurotransmitters and L-Dopa ethyl ester to 2-phenyl-3-carboxymethyl-imidazopyridine compounds giving rise to the so-called Dopimid compounds. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A number of Dopimid compounds were synthesized and both stability and binding studies to dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors were performed. To evaluate whether Dopimid compounds are P-gp substrates, [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments and bi-directional transport studies on confluent MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers were carried out. The brain penetration properties of Dopimid compounds were estimated by the Clark's computational model and evaluated by investigation of their transport across BBMECs monolayers. The dopamine levels following the intraperitoneal administration of the selected Dopimid compounds were measured in vivo by using brain microdialysis in rat. RESULTS: Tested compounds were adequately stable in solution buffered at pH 7.4 but undergo faster cleavage in dilute rat serum at 37 degrees C. Receptor binding studies showed that Dopimid compounds are essentially devoid of affinity for dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors. [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments indicated that selected Dopimid compounds, like L-Dopa and dopamine hydrochloride, are not substrates of P-gp and it was also confirmed by bi-directional transport experiments across MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers. By Clark's model a significant brain penetration was deduced for L-Dopa ethyl ester and dopamine derivatives. Transport studies involving BBMECs monolayers indicated that some of these compounds should be able to cross the BBB. Interestingly, the rank order of apparent permeability (P (app)) values observed in these assays parallels that calculated by the computational approach. Brain microdialysis experiments in rat showed that intraperitoneal acute administration of some Dopimid compounds induced a dose-dependent increase in cortical dopamine output. CONCLUSION: Based on these results, it may be concluded that some Dopimid compounds can be proposed as novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs.

    PMID: 17404814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    Right, but the above study is demonstrating a problem with L-Dopa's sustained central bioavailibility. To say that it doesn't cross the BBB is wrong, however. I'm saying this is probably where USP got the idea to claim that it doesn't cross the BBB.

    This study is interesting to, from July of '07:

    : Pharm Res. 2007 Jul;24(7):1309-24. Epub 2007 Apr 3. Links
    Novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs containing a 2-phenyl-imidazopyridine moiety.Denora N, Laquintana V, Lopedota A, Serra M, Dazzi L, Biggio G, Pal D, Mitra AK, Latrofa A, Trapani G, Liso G.


    PURPOSE: The aim of this study was to gain insight into the feasibility of enhancing the delivery of L-Dopa and dopamine to the brain by linking these neurotransmitters and L-Dopa ethyl ester to 2-phenyl-3-carboxymethyl-imidazopyridine compounds giving rise to the so-called Dopimid compounds. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A number of Dopimid compounds were synthesized and both stability and binding studies to dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors were performed. To evaluate whether Dopimid compounds are P-gp substrates, [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments and bi-directional transport studies on confluent MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers were carried out. The brain penetration properties of Dopimid compounds were estimated by the Clark's computational model and evaluated by investigation of their transport across BBMECs monolayers. The dopamine levels following the intraperitoneal administration of the selected Dopimid compounds were measured in vivo by using brain microdialysis in rat. RESULTS: Tested compounds were adequately stable in solution buffered at pH 7.4 but undergo faster cleavage in dilute rat serum at 37 degrees C. Receptor binding studies showed that Dopimid compounds are essentially devoid of affinity for dopaminergic and benzodiazepine receptors. [(3)H]ritonavir uptake experiments indicated that selected Dopimid compounds, like L-Dopa and dopamine hydrochloride, are not substrates of P-gp and it was also confirmed by bi-directional transport experiments across MDCKII-MDR1 monolayers. By Clark's model a significant brain penetration was deduced for L-Dopa ethyl ester and dopamine derivatives. Transport studies involving BBMECs monolayers indicated that some of these compounds should be able to cross the BBB. Interestingly, the rank order of apparent permeability (P (app)) values observed in these assays parallels that calculated by the computational approach. Brain microdialysis experiments in rat showed that intraperitoneal acute administration of some Dopimid compounds induced a dose-dependent increase in cortical dopamine output. CONCLUSION: Based on these results, it may be concluded that some Dopimid compounds can be proposed as novel L-Dopa and dopamine prodrugs.

    PMID: 17404814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    whatever the case, they really threw me for a a "WTF?" by saying that L-dopa does not cross the blood brain barrier.

    certainly the derivative in the abstract there is too sophisticated and expensive for a supplement. and if you were gonna get that complex you are better served spending the resources and intellectual capital on more promising avenues then L-dopa

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

    I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

    2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


    bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

    I never heard anyone say it was a precursor. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I would imagine there could be other ways for it to raise dopamine levels. I've had suspicions about a few other products by USPLabs (ingredients with uncommon names), but I try to keep an open mind about it.

    Here's what they had on their writeup about 1-C, in case you hadn't seen it.

    A few years back a compound hit the bodybuilding scene with a lot of promise. It had great scientific research to back it up. That compound’s name was L-Dopa.

    As you may know, L-Dopa could never duplicate it’s scientific performance in the real world. For one reason: L-Dopa could never cross the blood brain barrier…it would get absorbed in the blood stream and all hope of increased HGH production was lost!

    In order for the brain to turn L-Dopa into dopamine…and therefore shoot HGH levels through the roof…this major obstacle had to be overcome…

    At USP Labs we knew if we could come up with a bioavailable form of L-Dopa that had the ability to cross the blood/brain barrier it would help bodybuilders everywhere increase natural HGH release, natural Testosterone production, drive sex drive through the roof, build muscle, lose body fat and sleep like a rock.

    Well, you will be glad when you hear we have succeeded! But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound that’s closely related and is readily available for the body to use!

    It’s called 1-C and it’s here to rock your world…

    1-C, or 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol), is closely related to l-Dopa. In the past, many supplements touted L-Dopa as the next BIG THING in the supplement industry, but if failed miserably.

    Synthetic L-dopa was created by the pharmaceutical industry to use in Parkisons disease to increase Dopamine levels that could increase muscle coordination. The research was good and bad mainly because Parkisons is not a well understood disease yet.

    Again, in a study done in India, it was found that 1-C (a natural l-Dopa derivative) increased HGH levels through increasing dopamine levels naturally.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I never heard anyone say it was a precursor. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I would imagine there could be other ways for it to raise dopamine levels. I've had suspicions about a few other products by USPLabs (ingredients with uncommon names), but I try to keep an open mind about it.

    Here's what they had on their writeup about 1-C, in case you hadn't seen it.

    the herb they say this is from is the same herb that everyone else gets regular l-dopa from

    everything points to this being plain l-dopa

    i would love for them to prove me wrong

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    the herb they say this is from is the same herb that everyone else gets regular l-dopa from

    everything points to this being plain l-dopa

    i would love for them to prove me wrong
    Just because you know there's one particular alkaloid in the plant, doesn't mean that's the only one it contains. A lot of times plants contain several very similar alkaloids in them, look at chocolate, yerba mate, and guarana; they contain several xanthine group alkaloids in varying concetrations.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Just because you know there's one particular alkaloid in the plant, doesn't mean that's the only one it contains. A lot of times plants contain several very similar alkaloids in them, look at chocolate, yerba mate, and guarana; they contain several xanthine group alkaloids in varying concetrations.

    i am aware of that

    but surely this would be a compound i would be familiar with, and others would be familiar with if it indeed is present in mucura puriens along with l-dopa

    you are a nice guy so why don't you enquire with usp about this. i hope they don't play the "propietary information" game

  27. All this L-dopa talk makes me think of Leonard...


  28. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post

    you are a nice guy so why don't you enquire with usp about this. i hope they don't play the "propietary information" game
    2nd that vote. I'd like to hear what they have to say.
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