powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

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  1. I think Patrick was referencing specifically plant sterols in terms of 'muscle building.'


    plant extracts like cissus/ephedra/urtica dioca/l-dopa (I don't mess with that stuff) all have some benefit, but none of them build muscle directly.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX;
    I think Patrick was referencing specifically plant sterols in terms of 'muscle building.'
    His comment on plant sterols was very general. There was nothing in the comment that implied he referred to muscle-building properties only.

    Here is the comment once more: "and i never heard of plant sterols doing much of anything."

    This is what motivated me to recall plant-sterols' LDL cholesterol-lowering properties. I am not sure any one wanted to say plant sterols build muscles. Yet, they have benefits for athletes. Not every compound in a formula for body builders and other athletes should have anabolic properties. Some just do other nice things. Like plant sterols!
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    So what about ALRI's Pro-Anabol where they 17a the ecdysterone ? Probably still ineffective then ?>
    ecdysterone has some things suggesting a possible nitrogen retaining effect but nothing showing any clear benefits in athletes.

    its been around for a long time and reviews are mixed (not that reviews tell us that much). a controlled clinical would be nice

  4. Dammit......I was so close to finally ordering bulk Powerfull. I hate the fact that I'm so easily swayed by PA.....

    However, I do I have my own mind, and for the price its going for, it cant hurt...........alot.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by json75 View Post
    Dammit......I was so close to finally ordering bulk Powerfull. I hate the fact that I'm so easily swayed by PA.....

    However, I do I have my own mind, and for the price its going for, it cant hurt...........alot.

    you can try l-dopa for a while if you like, it is very cheap. it may give you a transient lift. i remember when i was taking it i thought i felt something at first but then it seemed it was doing nothing. and you should not take it for too long because it has potentially serious side effects

    i am curious about the claims that USP makes in their ads. they are saying that l-dopa does not pass the blood brain barrier but that is a complete contradicition because the very reason l-dopa was developed was to pass the blood brain barrier. the purpose was to increase dopamine levels in the brain (particularly a region called the substantia nigra) for the treatment of parkinsons disease. L-dopa could pass into the brain and then metabolize into dopamine afterwards - dopamine itself cannot pass the BBB

    to learn about l-dopa, the FACTS about l-dopa, all you have to do is check out the wikipedia entry. Levodopa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    ecdysterone has some things suggesting a possible nitrogen retaining effect but nothing showing any clear benefits in athletes.

    its been around for a long time and reviews are mixed (not that reviews tell us that much). a controlled clinical would be nice
    funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...

  7. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...
    There has been a controlled clinical of 6OXO and the results were pretty good. 11OXO just came out so give it a bit.

    I understand people's skepticism of PA coming on here and talking down certain supplements, but here is something most people seem to be missing. He could just as easily sell these substances himself and make the exact same claims, and with the respect the Ergopharm name carries, he could make a fortune off of it. He also has a stellar lab, unlike most companies, and makes most of his products in house. He does not chose to do that, why I am not going to guess at his motives, but you people who think that he is just trying to bash competitors to increases his sales are not really thinking this through. There are very few patents granted in the supplement industry so anything he bashes, he could easily sell himself. While I do not think his motives are entirely pure, I think his reasoning is hard to criticize, he is just using the best available scientific evidence and if there is a lack of evidence supporting any of these companies claims he is pointing that out as well.

    I will also note that I do purchase Bulk Powerfull and find that it does help with Libido, as far as muscle building, who knows, there are so many variable s with my diet, training, other supplementation that it is almost impossible to say.

  8. Many companies lack the intellegence/resources to produce real products based on more than just obsecure studies.....and no Dr. Marvin Hauer aka lead developer from Muscle-Tech dosen't count

    In turn, a lot of these companies look up what's hot, get the product, copy the ingredient list, put some cool packaging/fancy name, then re-sell.

  9. i was mainly refering to that 6-MU, i would like to see more on it. Im done with challenging PA, he's cool i like him here and apprieciate his opinions and insight. peace.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...
    we have funded two clinical studies to date on 6-oxo and have funded studies in the past on 4-ad, cyclo-4-ad, and 1-ad as well as other products that we have yet to bring to market

    other products that we sell have ingredients in them that have already had clinical studies done on them also by others

    thanks for the attitude though man, very nice

  11. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Many companies lack the intellegence/resources to produce real products based on more than just obsecure studies.....and no Dr. Marvin Hauer aka lead developer from Muscle-Tech dosen't count

    In turn, a lot of these companies look up what's hot, get the product, copy the ingredient list, put some cool packaging/fancy name, then re-sell.

    exactly

    i see stuff from years and years ago get recycled under new names with claims even bolder than before all the time.

    L-dopa with plant sterols is a perfect case

  12. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    i was mainly refering to that 6-MU, i would like to see more on it. Im done with challenging PA, he's cool i like him here and apprieciate his opinions and insight. peace.

    i have a ton of abstracts on the stuff, most done in russia. its a pretty obscure ingredient in a product that we are gonna discontinue. i admit it is no miracle supplement but it is good for optimizing RNA synthesis, which is an often overlooked aspect of muscle recovery and growth

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    we have funded two clinical studies to date on 6-oxo and have funded studies in the past on 4-ad, cyclo-4-ad, and 1-ad as well as other products that we have yet to bring to market

    other products that we sell have ingredients in them that have already had clinical studies done on them also by others

    thanks for the attitude though man, very nice
    i thought that 6oxo would have to have the clinicals and the other popular hormonal stuff. anyway glad you enjoyed the attitude. You do the same from time to time dont you?
    its all good.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    exactly

    i see stuff from years and years ago get recycled under new names with claims even bolder than before all the time.

    L-dopa with plant sterols is a perfect case
    The supplement industry is the charlatans playground.

  15. Pat, as sketchy as this stuff seems, and I do sympathize with all of your sentiments...1-Carboxy is not the same as L-Dopa.

    You are of course right about L-Dopa crossing the BBB, it does so through a LNAA transporter which is why it cant be taken with protein. This is documented, not sure why USP is stating otherwise.

    I have plenty of experience with L-Dopa, and again, you are exactly right...it f'd up my sleep and gave me creepy, twisted dreams. When taking 250mg pre-bed, it would cause me to wake up 15-20 times per night, in an awake-dream state.

    It works great for about 2 weeks for motivation/daytime stimulation...then stops working. 1 week off, and it starts working again. Similar to deprenyl/selegeline in motivation effects...except dep works better the longer you're on it. L-Dopa also needs to be taken with a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor...green tea extract/EGCG actually works fine...no need to go to the prescription carbidopa.

    All that being said, I've been taking bulk 1-carboxy for about 2 weeks now, and the effects are entirely different. I take a large dose before bed (2.4g) and within 30min I start yawning and become extremely relaxed. My whole life I've had a problem waking up refreshed, and every single time I've taken this the past 2 weeks, I've woken up early, 30-60min before my alarm goes off and felt extremely rested.

    Even if this does nothing for my body comp, i would take it just for the way I feel in the morning, which I've never been able to maintain aside from transient phases.

    As for daytime doses, 800mg still has a bit of a relaxing effect, whereas a good dose of L-Dopa (250mg) has a very stimulating effect.

    I was pretty skeptical about it doing anything (but it was cheap, and I'm a sucker for dopaminergics)...as my only other experience with USP was with a couple of bottles of Anabolic Pump they sent me to test, which did absolutely nothing.

    I made a post about 1-Carboxy in the Inner Circle at M&M...you've got access, check it out. It would be good to see you over there anyway. I also have my L-Dopa experience posted there somewhere.


    (This is Marc, by the way)

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
    Pat, as sketchy as this stuff seems, and I do sympathize with all of your sentiments...1-Carboxy is not the same as L-Dopa.
    It isn't?

    please explain the chemical differences. what IS the stuff then if it is not L-dopa?

    a real chemical name would be nice.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    I've been wondering this myself for quite some time, as well.

    pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

    I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

    2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


    bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

    I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

    2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


    bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

    Isn't a typo in the ingredients for a product fall under 'mislabeling' supplements and illegal ? Even if it is a typo it is not exactly the name of the ingredient. While 99.9% of the IUPAC nomenclature is correct, we all know a number,dash,bond location, etc makes a world difference, but by law, supplements need to have accurate labeling of their products ?

  19. I wasn't impressed with PowerFULL, and USP wasn't impressed with me for saying so...

  20. Quote Originally Posted by xjsynx View Post
    I wasn't impressed with PowerFULL, and USP wasn't impressed with me for saying so...
    you know what ? I wasn't impressed with anabolic pump either. go figure.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Isn't a typo in the ingredients for a product fall under 'mislabeling' supplements and illegal ? Even if it is a typo it is not exactly the name of the ingredient. While 99.9% of the IUPAC nomenclature is correct, we all know a number,dash,bond location, etc makes a world difference, but by law, supplements need to have accurate labeling of their products ?
    Yes you are correct, also companies are required under the FTC guidelines to list the common name of a product on the ingredient panel, not some obscure chemical name.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    usp, apn, and controlled labs all seem eerily the same to me.

    the same as in the way they come across on the internet.

    everything they have is amazing, mindblowind, incredible. all this feedback all the time

    then you have other well known companies with fantastic products but you don't see nearly as much talk about the products (i am not talking about ergo either)

    i dunno, i am just thinking out loud.
    For the most part marketing and being part of the 'inner circle'.

  23. Uh-oh...

    Maybe they weren't so far off about that BBB thing:

    1: Exp Neurol. 2005 Sep;195(1):267-71. Links
    An active transport system in the blood-brain barrier may reduce levodopa availability.Hawkins RA, Mokashi A, Simpson IA.


    Levodopa, the primary drug used to treat patients with Parkinson's disease, is transported into the brain by the facilitative amino acid transporter (L1). We present here an unanticipated discovery: levodopa may be pumped out of the brain by a Na(+)-dependent transport system that couples the naturally occurring Na(+) gradient existing between the brain's extracellular fluid and the cytoplasm of capillary endothelial cells. The activity of this system reduces the net availability of levodopa.
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