Anabolic Minds, what are your thoughts on liver prots for PHs

  1. Anabolic Minds, what are your thoughts on liver prots for PHs

    I've been going back in a semi-heated arguement on in reference to how important liver protectants are as well as how toxic PHs really are to the liver. Posts have been made w/ scientific experiments proving each way. Basically the following issues were raised:
    #1-Liver prots are over-rated, NAC and vitamin c are good enough to protect liver during a PH cycle.
    Some argue this as true, many swere by supplements like liver support and milk thistle.

    #2-Drinking on a PH. This is COMPLETELY on a liver subject and how harmful it can be. This has nothing to do w/ how bad drinking is for breaking down protein and what not.
    Some say having some drinks on the weekend will not be the end of your liver, others say 2-3 drinks can destroy it.

    #3-How much to take. Some say just 1 each morning is enough during a PH cycle. Other say it is neccesary to take with each meal, and if drinking up to 4-5 pills in a day.

    Sorry for my low post count (1) haha, but I came over here from because people said you guys are better with the science issues lol. Give me your opinions, thanks. :squat:

  2. I think it'll vary simply because of the arguments are all over the place but i'm in the category of better safe than sorry.

    1. I don't drink period but I definately wouldn't while cycle.
    2. Liver prots are good but everything in moderation. the common thought of mega-dose everything has got out of hand
    3. PH's are as toxic and in some cases a hell of a lot more toxic than people are willing to believe. They think if the skin isn't yellow they are fine.
    4. Most people are in their early 20's and could get up after being hit by a truck and still go out and play a double header of baseball and drin the entire night and get up for work the next morning. Sadly, this will not be the case at 40,50,60+

  3. lol Jay.

    1. I would not call them over rated, however I would call the matter of liver toxicity from most, not all, PH's over rated. SD and M1T are the two exceptions and they are extremely bad on the liver, cholesterol values (which are directly related to liver issues), the heart and immune system.

    2. On SD/M1T..I would not drink ever. On milder orals, a drink or two on the weekend is not too dangerous, but you are walking a thin line already.

    3. A dose of 300-500 mg of NAC 3x per day is generally sufficient to ward of most of the liver toxicosis effects. If you are relying on vitamin C exclusively, it does have a short half life and does need to be dosed 4-5 times per day. The dose does not need to be huge, just evenly spaced and CONSISTENT. Stopping and starting liver support supps while exposing one's liver to toxic compounds can actually do MORE damage than not taking the supps at all.

    The above is the small picture. In the big picture this community should be far more worried about the effects to the cardiovascular system than to anything else. Yes, liver protection is wise but it does not save you from all potential consequences if you are going to abuse PH's/AAS. If you look at the statistics, pro BBers and wrestlers are dying of heart disease/arrhythmias..not fatty liver disease or cirrhosis.

  4. ^^Listen to the gorilla

  5. BIO: What do you think of Vitamin C time released as an alternative to multiple doses ?

    #1. Liver prots are not overrated and they're so cheap that it would be unwise to not use them. I only use NAC and Milkl Thistle, you can add K-R-ALA and/or SAM-e if you want to get fancy with it.

    #2. 2-3 drinks on the weekend are okay unless you're on Methyl-Tren, M1T, Superdrol.

    #3. 600 mg of Milkt Thistle with 80% extract for Sylimarin and 1200-1500 mf of NAC, the number of pills is not what you should be looking for, it's the overall dose.

  6. Don't even ****ing get me started.

    1. Drinking while on is a horrible idea. I lost my best friend earlier in the year when he went out and binged...not even thinking about the medication he had been recently put on.

    2. I think support supps are good...but I'm not sold on megadosing for weeks before cycle. I think standard dosing is ok in most cases. That being said, I'd never do a cycle of M1T, and I have a full bottle of SD I'm afraid to touch.
    E-Pharm Nutrition Representative

  7. M1T and SD are unnecessarily harsh. You can get the same results from PP or Halo with a fraction of the risk and sides. I won't touch the harsh stuff reason to.

  8. Well I understand talking about liver support but what about all the other negative effects they can have on the body if you don't take support sups? Increased BP, increased bad cholesterol, decrease good cholesterol etc

    Everyone is different. What may be not very harsh for one person could really knock another person's numbers out of wack.

    Without blood tests there is NO way to know for sure what the prohormones are doing to you and if you are, or are not safe having a few drinks.

    For not too much money you can buy liver support/cholesterol support/BP support be safe and sound.

    As far as preloading with the supports sups if they are extracts the preload time IMO is lowered to nothing or next to nothing.

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  9. You would be absolutely retarded to drink on cycle. I will say this, the liver is extremely strong and it repairs itself very well, probably the strongest organ in your body for repairing itself, however, that doesn't mean you go and be stupid and screw yourself over for later in your life, eventually things like this will catch up to you.

    I agree that mega dosing these supps is a dumb idea but the combination of milk thistle + NAC is a great way to not only keep glutathione levels high but it can also repair damaged tissue as opposed to just protecting it. This is why we stuck it in our product Cycle Support.

    Take precautions bro. This is the type of subject that has inspired me to create Cycle Support for Anabolic Innovations, an all in one health supp. to protect you on cycle. It is easier to take and easier to recommend to people instead of telling them to buy a million different things. I am big on health and figured I might as well pass that along to other people.

    Your health is all you got bro.

  10. 4 Cups of Coffee

  11. #1-You aren't factoring in the toxicity of each compound. You can get away with no liver support supplements for something unmethylated at a rational dose. Heck, you can get away using some NAC with mild-orals. But for the completely harsh compounds like M1T, SD, etc. don't even give it a second thought. A few bucks spent is completely worth it for protecting your liver. No, it is not overrated. Hepatoxicty should be a concern.

    #2-Really stupid yet again. Drinking is by far the worst thing to do regardless. Which do you think will have your liver hating you more- A cycle of steriods or a night out binge drinking. Much to the contrary, it's the night out binge drinking. Now couple even a few drinks with a cycle (and your absolutely crazy if it's heavily methylated) your asking for trouble. The effects may not be apparent, but might trout around later in life.

    #3-Individuality, my friend. Everybody if different, and reacts differently. Just take the established doses and ramp up or down with consulting post-cycle blood tests, etc.
  12. Red face

    great discussion. i read on the av labs site about how NAC, when taken after the toxin (in that case toxic metabolic by-product of voluntarily imbibed alcohol) actually increases damage.

    yeah, ascorbic acid doesn't really last that long, and mega-dosing seems to cause gastric upset and possibly diarrhea. i was wondering about calcium ascorbate..

    so here are a bunch of muscleheaded pvssies worried about their big, young, healthy livers, huh?

    but really, anything that is as intensely anabolic as a cycle.. why even shut down protein synthesis for 24 hours, especially when already putting the liver under such a strain? beyond the methylated anabolic compound you'd think the anabolic activity itself would be making the liver work overtime anyway, right? it just doesn't make sense. if you're man enough to work for it, why not be man enough to practice some sensible self-restraint? i just don't see alcoholic beverages being the cholesterol balancing supplement to complement the hepatotoxic anabolic compounds.

    okay, good points. what we may not feel now may affect us down the line. i'm worried more about the cholesterol levels from what some people report with the testing.

    what i'd really like to see is someone on a dedicated methasteron (superdrol/masterdrol/etc.) cycle, a moderate cycle, not stacked, no cycle specific ancillary supplements, just regular stuff like C, E, whatever other nutritional supplements they usually take. then they have their liver analyzed. phase 2 would be to go on another methasteron cycle, same dosage, same duration (you know the drill) but this time pre-load with the liver protectants. beyond that, i'm very curious about the coQ10 + red yeast rice cholesterol support. NOW has that with milk thistle. i haven't taken it yet but i'm going to when i go on my next (light) cycle. i hope the RYR, being a kind of statin, doesn't mess up my muskells.

    with the light 2 week methasteron cycle, i know my liver can take it. it is our chemical factory and can regenerate a section when it is excised (such as cancer and other scary crapola), but at what cost? and how will it change the future?

    and what about the cardiovascular system? with the scary cholesterol profiles i've seen.. now, granted, there seems to be a lot of debate over the underlying causes of arteriosclerosis, inflammation and such.. but with HDL going so low and LDL elevated.. over a 3-4 week cycle that could be bad news. of course, if the heart plaques of mice can be cleared with the administration of THC, we could see marijuana use as a PCT for sclerotic plaque deposition!!!

    now that's what i call good medicine!

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    1. I don't drink period but I definately wouldn't while cycle.
    Thats very cool Jayhawkk..Do you not drink for health reasons or some other reason.

    I am also a non drinker..been one since August 1st 2002..
    sorry for the hi-jack!

  14. I take my Liv52, Vitamin C, and R-ALA religiously when doing any oral compounds. Additionally, I also don't drink and eat a fairly clean diet in general. Despite these precautions, I am still aware that I'm taking a gamble with my health down the road when I do these cycles.

    The reason being, everybody is genetically different and react differently to different compounds. There are people out there that can do heavy doses of orals for years and have healthy bloodwork, low BP, and have no health issues. On the other end of the spectrum is naturally the people that are very sensitive to even mild compounds. I, for one, can't take superdrol for more than a couple of days without it raising my BP so high, I have perpetual headaches.

    My point is that if you chose to do orals, you should:

    1) Always use liver protectant of some form or another at the recommended doses. They don't hurt you and can only benefit you.

    2) Stay away from alcohol, and keep to a clean diet with plenty of fluids.

    3) Get bloodwork done before and during a cycle if possible. I don't think people stress this enough. You can't feel the damaging effects of orals till too late. Only bloodwork will clue you in to how you are reacting to your oral cycle.

    Nuff said...

  15. What are you worried about?

    That is why God gave us 2 livers right? Or was that lungs? I can never keep those 2 straight

    Sleep Supplement 3Z BCAA: Red Raspberry and Lemon flavors
    HGH/sleep enhancer: HGHpro
    Test Booster: TestoPRO and STOKED!
    Preworkout: MANIAC Fruit Punch and Pink Lemonade


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