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The Stimulant Roundtable
Featuring Cy Willson and Anthony Roberts
Moderated by Chris Shugart
Psychologists theorize that our personality types dictate what kinds of recreational drugs we're more likely to use. Personally, I'd rather be up than down. Pass the stimulants, hold the depressants, please.
I'm not alone either. We Americans love our stimulants. In a fast-forward society of workaholics and busy bees, we always want to go just a little faster. And before you get all Nancy Reagan on me, remember that your morning cup of coffee (or six) contains a powerful stimulant banned by many athletic organizations: 1, 3, 7-trimethylxanthine.
You probably call it caffeine, you dirty druggie.
In this article, I sat down with Cy Willson and Anthony Roberts to explore the world of physical and cognitive stimulants. The results were, well, stimulating.
Chris Shugart: Let's talk stims. First, let's discuss our own history with them, what we've tried, and what we currently use. Get us rolling, Cy.
Cy Willson: I was essentially addicted to ephedra/ephedrine products for a good five or six years. While the euphoria was great, I found retrospectively that I was actually less focused the majority of the time, paranoid, and suffered a great deal of anxiety. That really took a toll on many of my relationships. I think for myself and most people that are already anxiety-prone, it's a bad choice.
Today, I'll use Spike on occasions where a great deal of focus is required, but other than that, I generally go with around 200 mg per day of caffeine and some green tea.
Shugart: I hear ya on the ephedrine addiction, but like most people, my first stimulant was caffeine. I got hooked on coffee my freshman year of college in order to survive a 7AM summer class.
Years later, while on a bowhunting trip, my buddy gave me my first tab of ephedrine, a Mini-Thin it was called. You had to get it at truck stops. It blew my mind. I was jittery and I missed all my shots that day, but man, did it ever wake me up! Of course, I crashed hard soon after and felt like dog meat.
I later graduated to ECA (ephedrine, caffeine, and aspirin). I used it for fat loss, but I mainly liked it for its stimulant properties. I tried clenbuterol but felt God-awful on it. I tossed what I had left in the garbage after a week or two of using it.
I also tried some "smart drugs" I picked up in Mexico, but I didn't notice much of anything. Oh, and once a friend of mine gave me a snort of... well, I'm not sure what it was, but I tooted it up my nose anyway. I was stimulated, but it was an ugly, paranoid high. I tried to write and couldn't, then I tried to train and couldn't stay focused. That was it for me and the "dark side" of stimulants.
Today, I look for something a little more refined and advanced. Ephedrine is pretty crude and I always adjusted to it quickly anyway. So these days I use Spike, which is mainly thiamine di(2-methylpropionate) disulfide. I like it because it gives me a powerful mental boost as well as a physical one. I actually use it before I write, too.
One tablet of Spike gives me what I call a "crisp mental hum," a very clean stimulant buzz. Two tablets and I'm flying — a very smooth and long-lasting stimulant rush, which makes other stimulants seem uneven and, well, dirty. I get no jitters from Spike but I have a "Bring it on!" attitude in the gym.
My mood is great when I'm Spiked up, I can juggle multiple mental tasks, I never feel a "crash," and it makes me want to spend the day in the squat rack.
Anthony, how about you? I have a feeling you're going to be official "crazy mother****er" of this discussion.
Anthony Roberts: Probably! I first used stimulants in my training regimen when I was about 15. There was this product called Dymetadrine 25 which was basically just 25mgs of ephedrine in tablet form.
I used it pre-workout, which was good because I was essentially working out for hours on end, following the bull**** I'd read in the popular magazines of the time. Around that time I also experimented with Ultimate Orange. This was a Dan Duchaine inspired pre-workout drink/stimulant, back in the day.
I eventually graduated to a version of the ECA stack called "Herba-something-or-other," which I used three times a day to cut weight for high school wrestling. After that, I used some pretty dodgy stuff, including basically all the nootropics on the market. None were great "stimulants" per se, although based on the strength coach I was reading at the time, I was convinced they'd help me acquire motor skills for my new sport (rugby) more quickly. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't really know.
I moved back to ECA during my later college years basically every spring to get cut for the summer (embarrassing). Somewhere during this time I must've tried every major brand's version of the ECA stack, which was typically some brown powder in a cap. The advantage of this over a tablet is that you can taste the powder about half an hour after you take it, and no amount of water gets the taste out. I think brown dust actually came out when I sneezed or burped!
I even used a popular drink mix that contained ECA. Apparently someone thought it would be great to have an ephedra flavored pre-workout drink. It was not, in fact, a good idea.
In my mid-twenties, if there was a stimulant I could swallow, shoot, smoke, or snort, I tried it. I even used injectable epinephrine before a workout, as well as ammonia caps, when going for max lifts. Some of my more (ahem) interesting adventures with stimulants eventually led to my serving six and a half months in prison. Those are the type I no longer do, obviously.
ECA is still the old standard that I use. I've used clenbuterol, but just don't like it as much as ECA. Recently, however, I've replaced the No-Doz in my morning ECA stack with Spike. By doing this, I've been able to cut down the E/C portion considerably, and really only use those components sparingly now.
Shugart: Anthony, what's this about shooting adrenaline? You're kidding us, right?
Roberts: No, I'm not kidding, but I guess it's not as dramatic as it may sound. I had a friend who had access to what's called an "Epi-Pen" which is basically for allergic reactions. Essentially, it's adrenaline.
So I figured I'd shoot a bit before a workout and see how it affected me. Basically it does what you think it would: it makes you all jittery and hopped up. I could see strongmen using it for competition or maybe a powerlifter before their deads in a meet, but other than that I'm hard pressed to think of a use for it, unless you're competing for half a day like those guys.
Shugart: Speaking of that, is it possible to get over-stimulated before lifting or before an athletic event? Cy?
Willson: Absolutely. There can always be "too much of a good thing" and stimulants are certainly not an exception. At one dose of a particular compound, you may experience a mild euphoria or elation, almost feeling somewhat peaceful, more focused with an increase in thought flow, and a sense of not being able to become fatigued easily.
Going above that particular dose, however, you may then experience excessive CNS stimulation and become easily distracted, have a short attention span, become irritable, and suffer psychomotor agitation. Your flow of thought may be increased, but it'll be all over the place. Some people might even experience tremors and muscle twitching.
Now, applying those clinical effects to what you'll see anecdotally, I'm sure many will think of a few cases they've witnessed or experienced themselves. One I've witnessed was a case where a guy had been working his way up to a 350-pound bench press over a period of time. About two weeks prior to his max day, he was easily pressing 340 for three or four reps, yet when the day finally came, it was very obvious to me that he was all over the place.
He was pacing back and forth, couldn't hold a thought, was easily distracted and, in general, just very anxious and nervous. Keep in mind this is a very calm person who'd never acted this way on a max day.
Time came for him to start working his way up to his potential max and I could see that he was certainly suffering from excessive CNS stimulation. A quick sign to me was his extreme and abnormal shaking while taking the weight off the rack with lighter weights such as 185 and 225. He simply couldn't focus and was so nervous he was barely able to press 315 pounds.
I finally asked him if he had taken anything. Sure enough, he told me he'd taken 75 mg of ephedrine and 400 mg of caffeine along with three grams of tyrosine. I finally gave him some orange juice with some lemon and some crushed ascorbic acid to speed the clearance of ephedrine.
Three days later he maxed out once again and this time without taking anything other than one caffeine tablet and hit 360. I'm sure many will recognize similar events. I can recall guys being convinced that taking certain stimulants at a certain dose was going to help them blow away their 100 meter and 40 yard times, yet they had their worst times ever.
Roberts: Yeah, as with anything else, it's possible to overdo a good thing. Stimulant provided strength and coordination (as well as focus) follows an "inverted U-shaped response curve," meaning that you take a certain amount and your physical and mental abilities peak at that (optimal) dose, and decline when you go over it.
Shugart: What about the Law of Diminishing Returns? How does that relate to most stimulants?
Willson: Well, with many of the compounds, you're looking at what's loosely called "tolerance." In short, you experience a diminishment of response from the drug with repeated use.
This could occur via pharmacokinetic (e.g. increased expression of a metabolizing enzyme) or pharmacodynamic (e.g. down-regulation of a particular receptor or interference with downstream signaling) means. As a result, you must continue to ingest more of the given compound to experience the desired effect.
Roberts: Yes, you definitely get a diminished return with stimulants, whether we're talking about anything from clenbuterol to ephedrine to caffeine. This is where you take enough caffeine to write a term paper and pull an all-nighter, and when you first sit down to write the paper, you're sharp and you're focused. Two or three pots of coffee later, you're a jittery mess.
You see it with ephedrine too, where you take enough to get up for a workout, but if you take too much, you get all shaky and risk early neural fatigue during training.
You also get less of a result as time goes on. I call this the "tall —> grande —> venti-effect." This is where you go to your favorite coffee shop, and for awhile, you get the smallest cup, but after awhile, you graduate to the largest cup they have, and you're drinking two of them to feel any kind of stimulant effect. Sooner or later, you're tired without the addition of caffeine to your system, and you need it to function properly.
These are the people who are at Starbucks at 8:45 am, standing in a ten person deep line, who have no chance of making it to work on time, but are still standing there, watching the counterperson handing out cups of coffee like they're looking at Nino Brown handing out crack.
Shugart: Okay, I've heard stories of pro-bodybuilders snorting coke before training. But I've also heard about guys smoking pot before training. I just don't get the latter, unless it has something to do with pain reduction. Anyway, what are your thoughts on both of those pre-workout "rituals?"
Roberts: Well, the world of anabolics is, unfortunately, very much tied in with a lot of those other recreational drugs like pot and cocaine. We all know Craig Titus went to prison the first time for ecstasy or "E." (Note: I went to prison for possession of ecstasy, on a first time offence, with zero priors.) A few years ago a fitness competitor died from hyperthermia related to E, and we all know that certain bodybuilders and even supplement company owners are very into it.
Nubain is another example of a pre-workout ritual that a lot of bodybuilders use to "kill the pain" of working out, or whatever. Basically, they were just using it recreationally. I remember one professional here in Jersey who placed eighth at the NOC and was basically addicted to it for a year or so.
As for pot, I do know of a lot of bodybuilders who smoke daily (mostly regional title holders and such, not too many professionals). They usually claim that it helps with pain or appetite stimulation, which has enough medically sound support to not be an outrageously absurd claim.
Still, the typical lack of aggression most people experience with the use of pot makes it a very poor pre-workout choice. In addition, it has potential side effects like possible infertility and making people actually enjoy the Grateful Dead.
Cocaine and methamphetamine are probably the more "common" stimulants used before training. The only time I've really heard about their use is in pre-contest dieting, in the final week or two. At that point, typically, it would be methamphetamine (crystal meth or it's cheaper version, speed) being used over cocaine, because its effects are longer lasting and it's less expensive. Clearly, although this does go on, it's not a great idea.
Willson: I think both pot and coke are obviously a bad idea. I'd hope I wouldn't have to explain why cocaine shouldn't be part of any person's life.
As far as the marijuana, perhaps they use it because of the potential analgesic effect, but I suspect there may be other reasons. I've actually heard most guys claim that they use it because it allows them to "focus" so much more and feel the contraction so much better. The latter would fit in with a classic response reported in those with a low level of intoxication, that is, heightened sensory awareness.
Unfortunately, available data indicates that if anything, marijuana would hinder a workout as there's supportive data for a muscle relaxant effect and it can cause somnolence (drowsiness.) In cases where there are high levels of intoxication, decreased muscle strength, decreased motor coordination, and poor concentration have been demonstrated.
Now, as far as why I think many may actually use it prior to training... This is going slightly off topic, but I think many do so either for the euphoria or the decrease in social inhibition. I think many require a euphoric state in order to tolerate getting back into the gym in cases where they're otherwise depressed or are dreading the monotony of another day in the gym.
Or, going back to the decrease in social inhibition, I think many seem to have social anxiety prior to gaining a great deal of muscle and afterwards — contrary to what they thought — it actually increases. Consequently, some may turn to marijuana and find it useful. This, however, is a poor choice as there are legal prescription drugs available to help with this issue.
Now, ignoring my pseudo-psychiatric explanation above, yes, perhaps it's for the potential analgesic action of marijuana or its active constituent. This certainly fits with the scenarios I've seen when it comes to guys becoming addicted to narcotic analgesics (e.g. hydrocodone, codeine, oxycodone, propoxyphene, etc.) because they're trying to work through an injury.
They begin using the drug in order to get through training sessions when they should simply be taking some time off. This then later escalates to using the drug in order to help them get to sleep (likely from the resulting pain from worsening their injury). It can be pretty sad situation thereafter. It also seems that a good number of guys abuse benzodiazepines to help them get to sleep from the stimulant abuse.
The only crazy story that comes to mind would be a rather large guy who for about a month-long period would consistently come in to the gym reeking of alcohol. We'd worked out together a few years prior, so I decided to ask him why he had taken up drinking recently and why he did it prior to training.
He told me that he did so because he'd been told that Arnold did so. I told him I'd always thought that Arnold did so after training and that I was pretty sure it wasn't every single day. Some of the things that people do and their reasoning simply amaze me.
Shugart: You promised you wouldn't tell people about my pre-workout tequila problem, Cy. Bastard.
Okay, it seems that some stimulants are also great for mental tasks — studying, writing, test taking, concentration, memory, creativity, and anything that requires improved cognition. Other stims, like ephedrine, may keep you alert while driving late at night, but they suck as "brain candy." Why are some stimulants good for thinking and others not?
Roberts: Well, although most of the stimulants we use for this purpose act on the sympathetic nervous system, some can cause a reaction in people that's similar to situational stressors that cause the "fight or flight" response.
This response is a reaction designed to give your body the extra strength, speed, and endurance needed to overcome (or get out of) a possible life-threatening situation. In certain cases, having this kind of stress on your body for prolonged time periods can cause anxiety and has the ability to mess you up on certain cognitive tasks.
Ephedrine is a great example of this. It's alright for pre-workout use, and you may be easily able to focus on your lifts when you're on it, but you aren't going to be able to write or perform complex or creative mental tasks very well. This is due to its ability to stimulate the beta receptors, and this unfortunately results in a subsequent (temporary) cognitive impairment.
Caffeine can also activate the sympathetic nervous system, but due to its adenosine receptor antagonist action, it's actually going to cause an increase in cognitive function. You see, while ephedrine relies on its ability to agonize your beta-receptors to cause its stimulatory effects, caffeine actually depends on its ability to reduce adenosine transmission in the brain to achieve bodily stimulation. So, caffeine will improve cognitive function and ephedrine won't, although they're both stimulants.
This is also why ephedrine is a better fat burner than caffeine. Beta receptors are found en massein skeletal tissue, while Adenosine A(1) and A(2A) receptors are expressed in the basal ganglia, a nice little mass of gray matter that lies embedded within the white matter near the base of each cerebral hemisphere of the brain.
Specifically, caffeine acts on so-called "projection neurons" located in the striatum part of the basal ganglia, which is thought of as the main receiving area of the basal ganglia. It's this interaction with adenosine receptors in this area that makes caffeine a good choice for improving cognitive function. However, the action occurring primarily within skeletal muscle tissue is how we burn our fat, and thus ephedrine is a better choice than caffeine for that purpose.
Willson: Well, there's some conflicting data when it comes to what may or may not improve cognitive function out of these stimulants. Having said that, I personally think that those that have cholinergic effects are the most desirable when it comes to cognition. For example, the main active ingredient in Spike has been shown to have positive cholinergic effects.
As for caffeine, by antagonizing those adenosine receptors, caffeine is thought to stimulate cholinergic neurons in the basal forebrain. It's via that mechanism as well as inhibiting GABAergic neurons involved in sleep promotion that caffeine stimulates wakefulness. Nicotine is also thought to increase attention and vigilance by directly stimulating cholinergic neurotransmission in the basal forebrain.
On the other hand, in cases where the compounds simply have noradrenergic and dopaminergic effects, I think one is more likely to simply experience a wakeful state.
It often amazes me that many people will go through the trouble of understanding that small alterations to a steroid molecule can produce drastically different biological effects, yet they ignore the fact that many of these psychostimulants are completely different molecules and can have very divergent mechanisms of action (though they often share some pharmacological similarities).
Shugart: Okay, what's the best way to use caffeine for workouts? How much and when do you take it, and in what form? What I do is avoid caffeine at all other times in the day, then, only before training, pop a generic Vivarin tablet. Any other thoughts on this?
Willson: I simply purchase the 200mg caffeine tablets and will split them in half. I'll take 100mg prior to workouts along with some green tea.
If I didn't experience such severe withdrawal effects after discontinuing use of caffeine, I'd use it every third day if not less in order to preserve many of the benefits from the drug. The reason being that tolerance to the psychostimulant effects of caffeine has been demonstrated to occur rapidly, like within a couple of days after initiating use.
Roberts: Avoiding caffeine all day is a very good idea for sure if you want to take it just before a workout as your primary stimulant.
Now, me, I'm the worst sleeper in the world. I wake up about ten times a night, and by about 4AM I'm already brewing a pot of coffee and trying to shut my eyes until around 6AM when I feel justified in jumping out of bed and downing the entire pot along with a handful of ephedrine.
But hey, that's just me, and there were mornings in my life where I didn't take it as easy as I do now, and did stuff to wake up that I probably shouldn't even mention...
But back to good 'ol caffeine, yeah, avoid it until you're ready to workout, then take a generic No-Doz (200mgs of caffeine), or if you want faster absorption, you can take it in a liquid solution form (called "coffee").
Shugart: What's this I hear about nicotine being a great brain booster/stimulant? I know the Japanese have even added it to energy drinks...
Roberts: Well, my theory on this is that the Japanese have added it to energy drinks for other reasons...
Look, it's like this, I don't smoke, but I couldn't care less if someone in a bar is smoking, alright? But now, you can't do that in New Jersey, where I'm from. So what's being done is that the bars are now carrying those "energy drinks." And a lot of major energy drink manufacturers are adding nicotine to their formulas and promoting them as mixers with Vodka or whatever.
But yeah, nicotine is a pretty potent cognitive enhancer. The Nicotinic systems in the hippocampus play important roles in memory function, and in fact, a reduced nicotinic receptor concentration is associated with severe cognitive impairment, like that seen with schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease.
Nicotine and nicotinic agonists are strongly and positively correlated with improved memory function, and even have a strong anti-depressant effect.
I work with a very good figure competitor who's training to qualify for nationals. At about 12 weeks out, when her carbs were lowered severely, we added in some Spike to her supplement protocol. At about four weeks out, during severe carbohydrate and caloric depletion, we added in a transdermal nicotine product for its localized anti-estrogenic and fat-burning effects, but also for its ability to help her focus at her job during the day.
Willson: Well, I won't debate the idea that nicotine could be used for those purposes, but I think it's really a poor choice.
Nicotine is a very addictive substance, which upon cessation of use can potentially cause a bout of depression. Furthermore, it can significantly increase cortisol levels, which you certainly don't want on a chronic basis. Another potential concern for bodybuilders and athletes it that it's been shown to decrease total sleep time and sleep efficiency as well as prolong sleep latency and decrease REM sleep in humans.
Last but not least, it may also contribute to the formation of cancer. I think people seem to make the mistake of thinking that because they're not using a tobacco product and simply the nicotine, that carcinogenic effects aren't an issue.
Shugart: Cy just takes the fun right out of it, doesn't he? Seriously, interesting stuff, guys. Thanks for the chat!
Featuring Cy Willson and Anthony Roberts
Moderated by Chris Shugart
Psychologists theorize that our personality types dictate what kinds of recreational drugs we're more likely to use. Personally, I'd rather be up than down. Pass the stimulants, hold the depressants, please.
I'm not alone either. We Americans love our stimulants. In a fast-forward society of workaholics and busy bees, we always want to go just a little faster. And before you get all Nancy Reagan on me, remember that your morning cup of coffee (or six) contains a powerful stimulant banned by many athletic organizations: 1, 3, 7-trimethylxanthine.
You probably call it caffeine, you dirty druggie.
In this article, I sat down with Cy Willson and Anthony Roberts to explore the world of physical and cognitive stimulants. The results were, well, stimulating.
Chris Shugart: Let's talk stims. First, let's discuss our own history with them, what we've tried, and what we currently use. Get us rolling, Cy.
Cy Willson: I was essentially addicted to ephedra/ephedrine products for a good five or six years. While the euphoria was great, I found retrospectively that I was actually less focused the majority of the time, paranoid, and suffered a great deal of anxiety. That really took a toll on many of my relationships. I think for myself and most people that are already anxiety-prone, it's a bad choice.
Today, I'll use Spike on occasions where a great deal of focus is required, but other than that, I generally go with around 200 mg per day of caffeine and some green tea.
Shugart: I hear ya on the ephedrine addiction, but like most people, my first stimulant was caffeine. I got hooked on coffee my freshman year of college in order to survive a 7AM summer class.
Years later, while on a bowhunting trip, my buddy gave me my first tab of ephedrine, a Mini-Thin it was called. You had to get it at truck stops. It blew my mind. I was jittery and I missed all my shots that day, but man, did it ever wake me up! Of course, I crashed hard soon after and felt like dog meat.
I later graduated to ECA (ephedrine, caffeine, and aspirin). I used it for fat loss, but I mainly liked it for its stimulant properties. I tried clenbuterol but felt God-awful on it. I tossed what I had left in the garbage after a week or two of using it.
I also tried some "smart drugs" I picked up in Mexico, but I didn't notice much of anything. Oh, and once a friend of mine gave me a snort of... well, I'm not sure what it was, but I tooted it up my nose anyway. I was stimulated, but it was an ugly, paranoid high. I tried to write and couldn't, then I tried to train and couldn't stay focused. That was it for me and the "dark side" of stimulants.
Today, I look for something a little more refined and advanced. Ephedrine is pretty crude and I always adjusted to it quickly anyway. So these days I use Spike, which is mainly thiamine di(2-methylpropionate) disulfide. I like it because it gives me a powerful mental boost as well as a physical one. I actually use it before I write, too.
One tablet of Spike gives me what I call a "crisp mental hum," a very clean stimulant buzz. Two tablets and I'm flying — a very smooth and long-lasting stimulant rush, which makes other stimulants seem uneven and, well, dirty. I get no jitters from Spike but I have a "Bring it on!" attitude in the gym.
My mood is great when I'm Spiked up, I can juggle multiple mental tasks, I never feel a "crash," and it makes me want to spend the day in the squat rack.
Anthony, how about you? I have a feeling you're going to be official "crazy mother****er" of this discussion.
Anthony Roberts: Probably! I first used stimulants in my training regimen when I was about 15. There was this product called Dymetadrine 25 which was basically just 25mgs of ephedrine in tablet form.
I used it pre-workout, which was good because I was essentially working out for hours on end, following the bull**** I'd read in the popular magazines of the time. Around that time I also experimented with Ultimate Orange. This was a Dan Duchaine inspired pre-workout drink/stimulant, back in the day.
I eventually graduated to a version of the ECA stack called "Herba-something-or-other," which I used three times a day to cut weight for high school wrestling. After that, I used some pretty dodgy stuff, including basically all the nootropics on the market. None were great "stimulants" per se, although based on the strength coach I was reading at the time, I was convinced they'd help me acquire motor skills for my new sport (rugby) more quickly. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't really know.
I moved back to ECA during my later college years basically every spring to get cut for the summer (embarrassing). Somewhere during this time I must've tried every major brand's version of the ECA stack, which was typically some brown powder in a cap. The advantage of this over a tablet is that you can taste the powder about half an hour after you take it, and no amount of water gets the taste out. I think brown dust actually came out when I sneezed or burped!
I even used a popular drink mix that contained ECA. Apparently someone thought it would be great to have an ephedra flavored pre-workout drink. It was not, in fact, a good idea.
In my mid-twenties, if there was a stimulant I could swallow, shoot, smoke, or snort, I tried it. I even used injectable epinephrine before a workout, as well as ammonia caps, when going for max lifts. Some of my more (ahem) interesting adventures with stimulants eventually led to my serving six and a half months in prison. Those are the type I no longer do, obviously.
ECA is still the old standard that I use. I've used clenbuterol, but just don't like it as much as ECA. Recently, however, I've replaced the No-Doz in my morning ECA stack with Spike. By doing this, I've been able to cut down the E/C portion considerably, and really only use those components sparingly now.
Shugart: Anthony, what's this about shooting adrenaline? You're kidding us, right?
Roberts: No, I'm not kidding, but I guess it's not as dramatic as it may sound. I had a friend who had access to what's called an "Epi-Pen" which is basically for allergic reactions. Essentially, it's adrenaline.
So I figured I'd shoot a bit before a workout and see how it affected me. Basically it does what you think it would: it makes you all jittery and hopped up. I could see strongmen using it for competition or maybe a powerlifter before their deads in a meet, but other than that I'm hard pressed to think of a use for it, unless you're competing for half a day like those guys.
Shugart: Speaking of that, is it possible to get over-stimulated before lifting or before an athletic event? Cy?
Willson: Absolutely. There can always be "too much of a good thing" and stimulants are certainly not an exception. At one dose of a particular compound, you may experience a mild euphoria or elation, almost feeling somewhat peaceful, more focused with an increase in thought flow, and a sense of not being able to become fatigued easily.
Going above that particular dose, however, you may then experience excessive CNS stimulation and become easily distracted, have a short attention span, become irritable, and suffer psychomotor agitation. Your flow of thought may be increased, but it'll be all over the place. Some people might even experience tremors and muscle twitching.
Now, applying those clinical effects to what you'll see anecdotally, I'm sure many will think of a few cases they've witnessed or experienced themselves. One I've witnessed was a case where a guy had been working his way up to a 350-pound bench press over a period of time. About two weeks prior to his max day, he was easily pressing 340 for three or four reps, yet when the day finally came, it was very obvious to me that he was all over the place.
He was pacing back and forth, couldn't hold a thought, was easily distracted and, in general, just very anxious and nervous. Keep in mind this is a very calm person who'd never acted this way on a max day.
Time came for him to start working his way up to his potential max and I could see that he was certainly suffering from excessive CNS stimulation. A quick sign to me was his extreme and abnormal shaking while taking the weight off the rack with lighter weights such as 185 and 225. He simply couldn't focus and was so nervous he was barely able to press 315 pounds.
I finally asked him if he had taken anything. Sure enough, he told me he'd taken 75 mg of ephedrine and 400 mg of caffeine along with three grams of tyrosine. I finally gave him some orange juice with some lemon and some crushed ascorbic acid to speed the clearance of ephedrine.
Three days later he maxed out once again and this time without taking anything other than one caffeine tablet and hit 360. I'm sure many will recognize similar events. I can recall guys being convinced that taking certain stimulants at a certain dose was going to help them blow away their 100 meter and 40 yard times, yet they had their worst times ever.
Roberts: Yeah, as with anything else, it's possible to overdo a good thing. Stimulant provided strength and coordination (as well as focus) follows an "inverted U-shaped response curve," meaning that you take a certain amount and your physical and mental abilities peak at that (optimal) dose, and decline when you go over it.
Shugart: What about the Law of Diminishing Returns? How does that relate to most stimulants?
Willson: Well, with many of the compounds, you're looking at what's loosely called "tolerance." In short, you experience a diminishment of response from the drug with repeated use.
This could occur via pharmacokinetic (e.g. increased expression of a metabolizing enzyme) or pharmacodynamic (e.g. down-regulation of a particular receptor or interference with downstream signaling) means. As a result, you must continue to ingest more of the given compound to experience the desired effect.
Roberts: Yes, you definitely get a diminished return with stimulants, whether we're talking about anything from clenbuterol to ephedrine to caffeine. This is where you take enough caffeine to write a term paper and pull an all-nighter, and when you first sit down to write the paper, you're sharp and you're focused. Two or three pots of coffee later, you're a jittery mess.
You see it with ephedrine too, where you take enough to get up for a workout, but if you take too much, you get all shaky and risk early neural fatigue during training.
You also get less of a result as time goes on. I call this the "tall —> grande —> venti-effect." This is where you go to your favorite coffee shop, and for awhile, you get the smallest cup, but after awhile, you graduate to the largest cup they have, and you're drinking two of them to feel any kind of stimulant effect. Sooner or later, you're tired without the addition of caffeine to your system, and you need it to function properly.
These are the people who are at Starbucks at 8:45 am, standing in a ten person deep line, who have no chance of making it to work on time, but are still standing there, watching the counterperson handing out cups of coffee like they're looking at Nino Brown handing out crack.
Shugart: Okay, I've heard stories of pro-bodybuilders snorting coke before training. But I've also heard about guys smoking pot before training. I just don't get the latter, unless it has something to do with pain reduction. Anyway, what are your thoughts on both of those pre-workout "rituals?"
Roberts: Well, the world of anabolics is, unfortunately, very much tied in with a lot of those other recreational drugs like pot and cocaine. We all know Craig Titus went to prison the first time for ecstasy or "E." (Note: I went to prison for possession of ecstasy, on a first time offence, with zero priors.) A few years ago a fitness competitor died from hyperthermia related to E, and we all know that certain bodybuilders and even supplement company owners are very into it.
Nubain is another example of a pre-workout ritual that a lot of bodybuilders use to "kill the pain" of working out, or whatever. Basically, they were just using it recreationally. I remember one professional here in Jersey who placed eighth at the NOC and was basically addicted to it for a year or so.
As for pot, I do know of a lot of bodybuilders who smoke daily (mostly regional title holders and such, not too many professionals). They usually claim that it helps with pain or appetite stimulation, which has enough medically sound support to not be an outrageously absurd claim.
Still, the typical lack of aggression most people experience with the use of pot makes it a very poor pre-workout choice. In addition, it has potential side effects like possible infertility and making people actually enjoy the Grateful Dead.
Cocaine and methamphetamine are probably the more "common" stimulants used before training. The only time I've really heard about their use is in pre-contest dieting, in the final week or two. At that point, typically, it would be methamphetamine (crystal meth or it's cheaper version, speed) being used over cocaine, because its effects are longer lasting and it's less expensive. Clearly, although this does go on, it's not a great idea.
Willson: I think both pot and coke are obviously a bad idea. I'd hope I wouldn't have to explain why cocaine shouldn't be part of any person's life.
As far as the marijuana, perhaps they use it because of the potential analgesic effect, but I suspect there may be other reasons. I've actually heard most guys claim that they use it because it allows them to "focus" so much more and feel the contraction so much better. The latter would fit in with a classic response reported in those with a low level of intoxication, that is, heightened sensory awareness.
Unfortunately, available data indicates that if anything, marijuana would hinder a workout as there's supportive data for a muscle relaxant effect and it can cause somnolence (drowsiness.) In cases where there are high levels of intoxication, decreased muscle strength, decreased motor coordination, and poor concentration have been demonstrated.
Now, as far as why I think many may actually use it prior to training... This is going slightly off topic, but I think many do so either for the euphoria or the decrease in social inhibition. I think many require a euphoric state in order to tolerate getting back into the gym in cases where they're otherwise depressed or are dreading the monotony of another day in the gym.
Or, going back to the decrease in social inhibition, I think many seem to have social anxiety prior to gaining a great deal of muscle and afterwards — contrary to what they thought — it actually increases. Consequently, some may turn to marijuana and find it useful. This, however, is a poor choice as there are legal prescription drugs available to help with this issue.
Now, ignoring my pseudo-psychiatric explanation above, yes, perhaps it's for the potential analgesic action of marijuana or its active constituent. This certainly fits with the scenarios I've seen when it comes to guys becoming addicted to narcotic analgesics (e.g. hydrocodone, codeine, oxycodone, propoxyphene, etc.) because they're trying to work through an injury.
They begin using the drug in order to get through training sessions when they should simply be taking some time off. This then later escalates to using the drug in order to help them get to sleep (likely from the resulting pain from worsening their injury). It can be pretty sad situation thereafter. It also seems that a good number of guys abuse benzodiazepines to help them get to sleep from the stimulant abuse.
The only crazy story that comes to mind would be a rather large guy who for about a month-long period would consistently come in to the gym reeking of alcohol. We'd worked out together a few years prior, so I decided to ask him why he had taken up drinking recently and why he did it prior to training.
He told me that he did so because he'd been told that Arnold did so. I told him I'd always thought that Arnold did so after training and that I was pretty sure it wasn't every single day. Some of the things that people do and their reasoning simply amaze me.
Shugart: You promised you wouldn't tell people about my pre-workout tequila problem, Cy. Bastard.
Okay, it seems that some stimulants are also great for mental tasks — studying, writing, test taking, concentration, memory, creativity, and anything that requires improved cognition. Other stims, like ephedrine, may keep you alert while driving late at night, but they suck as "brain candy." Why are some stimulants good for thinking and others not?
Roberts: Well, although most of the stimulants we use for this purpose act on the sympathetic nervous system, some can cause a reaction in people that's similar to situational stressors that cause the "fight or flight" response.
This response is a reaction designed to give your body the extra strength, speed, and endurance needed to overcome (or get out of) a possible life-threatening situation. In certain cases, having this kind of stress on your body for prolonged time periods can cause anxiety and has the ability to mess you up on certain cognitive tasks.
Ephedrine is a great example of this. It's alright for pre-workout use, and you may be easily able to focus on your lifts when you're on it, but you aren't going to be able to write or perform complex or creative mental tasks very well. This is due to its ability to stimulate the beta receptors, and this unfortunately results in a subsequent (temporary) cognitive impairment.
Caffeine can also activate the sympathetic nervous system, but due to its adenosine receptor antagonist action, it's actually going to cause an increase in cognitive function. You see, while ephedrine relies on its ability to agonize your beta-receptors to cause its stimulatory effects, caffeine actually depends on its ability to reduce adenosine transmission in the brain to achieve bodily stimulation. So, caffeine will improve cognitive function and ephedrine won't, although they're both stimulants.
This is also why ephedrine is a better fat burner than caffeine. Beta receptors are found en massein skeletal tissue, while Adenosine A(1) and A(2A) receptors are expressed in the basal ganglia, a nice little mass of gray matter that lies embedded within the white matter near the base of each cerebral hemisphere of the brain.
Specifically, caffeine acts on so-called "projection neurons" located in the striatum part of the basal ganglia, which is thought of as the main receiving area of the basal ganglia. It's this interaction with adenosine receptors in this area that makes caffeine a good choice for improving cognitive function. However, the action occurring primarily within skeletal muscle tissue is how we burn our fat, and thus ephedrine is a better choice than caffeine for that purpose.
Willson: Well, there's some conflicting data when it comes to what may or may not improve cognitive function out of these stimulants. Having said that, I personally think that those that have cholinergic effects are the most desirable when it comes to cognition. For example, the main active ingredient in Spike has been shown to have positive cholinergic effects.
As for caffeine, by antagonizing those adenosine receptors, caffeine is thought to stimulate cholinergic neurons in the basal forebrain. It's via that mechanism as well as inhibiting GABAergic neurons involved in sleep promotion that caffeine stimulates wakefulness. Nicotine is also thought to increase attention and vigilance by directly stimulating cholinergic neurotransmission in the basal forebrain.
On the other hand, in cases where the compounds simply have noradrenergic and dopaminergic effects, I think one is more likely to simply experience a wakeful state.
It often amazes me that many people will go through the trouble of understanding that small alterations to a steroid molecule can produce drastically different biological effects, yet they ignore the fact that many of these psychostimulants are completely different molecules and can have very divergent mechanisms of action (though they often share some pharmacological similarities).
Shugart: Okay, what's the best way to use caffeine for workouts? How much and when do you take it, and in what form? What I do is avoid caffeine at all other times in the day, then, only before training, pop a generic Vivarin tablet. Any other thoughts on this?
Willson: I simply purchase the 200mg caffeine tablets and will split them in half. I'll take 100mg prior to workouts along with some green tea.
If I didn't experience such severe withdrawal effects after discontinuing use of caffeine, I'd use it every third day if not less in order to preserve many of the benefits from the drug. The reason being that tolerance to the psychostimulant effects of caffeine has been demonstrated to occur rapidly, like within a couple of days after initiating use.
Roberts: Avoiding caffeine all day is a very good idea for sure if you want to take it just before a workout as your primary stimulant.
Now, me, I'm the worst sleeper in the world. I wake up about ten times a night, and by about 4AM I'm already brewing a pot of coffee and trying to shut my eyes until around 6AM when I feel justified in jumping out of bed and downing the entire pot along with a handful of ephedrine.
But hey, that's just me, and there were mornings in my life where I didn't take it as easy as I do now, and did stuff to wake up that I probably shouldn't even mention...
But back to good 'ol caffeine, yeah, avoid it until you're ready to workout, then take a generic No-Doz (200mgs of caffeine), or if you want faster absorption, you can take it in a liquid solution form (called "coffee").
Shugart: What's this I hear about nicotine being a great brain booster/stimulant? I know the Japanese have even added it to energy drinks...
Roberts: Well, my theory on this is that the Japanese have added it to energy drinks for other reasons...
Look, it's like this, I don't smoke, but I couldn't care less if someone in a bar is smoking, alright? But now, you can't do that in New Jersey, where I'm from. So what's being done is that the bars are now carrying those "energy drinks." And a lot of major energy drink manufacturers are adding nicotine to their formulas and promoting them as mixers with Vodka or whatever.
But yeah, nicotine is a pretty potent cognitive enhancer. The Nicotinic systems in the hippocampus play important roles in memory function, and in fact, a reduced nicotinic receptor concentration is associated with severe cognitive impairment, like that seen with schizophrenia and Alzheimer's disease.
Nicotine and nicotinic agonists are strongly and positively correlated with improved memory function, and even have a strong anti-depressant effect.
I work with a very good figure competitor who's training to qualify for nationals. At about 12 weeks out, when her carbs were lowered severely, we added in some Spike to her supplement protocol. At about four weeks out, during severe carbohydrate and caloric depletion, we added in a transdermal nicotine product for its localized anti-estrogenic and fat-burning effects, but also for its ability to help her focus at her job during the day.
Willson: Well, I won't debate the idea that nicotine could be used for those purposes, but I think it's really a poor choice.
Nicotine is a very addictive substance, which upon cessation of use can potentially cause a bout of depression. Furthermore, it can significantly increase cortisol levels, which you certainly don't want on a chronic basis. Another potential concern for bodybuilders and athletes it that it's been shown to decrease total sleep time and sleep efficiency as well as prolong sleep latency and decrease REM sleep in humans.
Last but not least, it may also contribute to the formation of cancer. I think people seem to make the mistake of thinking that because they're not using a tobacco product and simply the nicotine, that carcinogenic effects aren't an issue.
Shugart: Cy just takes the fun right out of it, doesn't he? Seriously, interesting stuff, guys. Thanks for the chat!
