GW-501516 anerobic work

[Endura]

Hey guys, recently doing some research on cardarine(gw) and saw its benefits for aerobic/cardio work, in its ability to shift the body's fuel source to mainly fat, but my question is would this lead to a deacrease in anerobic preformance, specifically for lifting and exercies like push ups/sit ups (military dude here so these are a big focus) has anyone who's taken this noticed that they perform worse in that aspect? Since the body went be using glycogen? Sny info would be great! Thanks guys!

 

[DemntedCowboy]

Hey guys, recently doing some research on cardarine(gw) and saw its benefits for aerobic/cardio work, in its ability to shift the body's fuel source to mainly fat, but my question is would this lead to a deacrease in anerobic preformance, specifically for lifting and exercies like push ups/sit ups (military dude here so these are a big focus) has anyone who's taken this noticed that they perform worse in that aspect? Since the body went be using glycogen? Sny info would be great! Thanks guys!

No you shouldnt have any worries where you srationed brother.

 

[bosskardo]

Not sure about lifting but it raises high intensity (anaerobic) running performance.

 

[Delboss731]

Hey guys, recently doing some research on cardarine(gw) and saw its benefits for aerobic/cardio work, in its ability to shift the body's fuel source to mainly fat, but my question is would this lead to a deacrease in anerobic preformance, specifically for lifting and exercies like push ups/sit ups (military dude here so these are a big focus) has anyone who's taken this noticed that they perform worse in that aspect? Since the body went be using glycogen? Sny info would be great! Thanks guys!

To me Cardarine helps everything. Lung health, cardiovascular health, and anaerobic capacity. A great compound in my opinion.

 

[Old Witch]

Cardarine is fantastic. Endurance in a bottle. Your cardiovascular endurance will increase and keep increasing the longer you run it. For lifting, this means you can take shorter rests between sets, and push harder past failure, as the overall heart rate and blood pressure will be decreased from usual training levels. After awhile training with it, good luck getting winded, could go for days.

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

i wouldn't touch gw. go find all the human research on substrate utilization. then go look at all the animal research, including when the pharma company stopped development. if you want better endurance - train like an endurance athlete. if you want some substrate help, use caffeine and ephedrine (or salbutamol if you want a drug - which gw is too).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

i wouldn't touch gw. go find all the human research on substrate utilization. then go look at all the animal research, including when the pharma company stopped development. if you want better endurance - train like an endurance athlete. if you want some substrate help, use caffeine and ephedrine (or salbutamol if you want a drug - which gw is too).

The rodent studies are a legitimate cause for concern. Not to mention GSK and Ligand both abandoning development for it. Since it has been shown to have the intended/desired benefits in human studies, it is clearly the potential serious adverse effects that lead them to abandon development. And, despite what some people say, it wasn't only one rodent study, it was multiple, and the people saying the doses were astronomically high clearly don't know what HED conversion is. The highest any human study used was 10mg/day, and that was only a cycle for a few/several weeks, but people here are running 20-25mg stacked with a ton of other drugs/PHs/etc. Even if it doesn't actually cause cancer or increase cancer growth on its own, but "only" exacerbates the effects of other carcinogens, why anyone would take it with other things that may themselves increase the chances of cancer growth/development is beyond me. In other words, GW + steroids/etc. = very risky IMO.

 

[MedRat]

i wouldn't touch gw. go find all the human research on substrate utilization. then go look at all the animal research, including when the pharma company stopped development. if you want better endurance - train like an endurance athlete. if you want some substrate help, use caffeine and ephedrine (or salbutamol if you want a drug - which gw is too).

I wouldn't advise ephedrine. Its very easy to get tachycardia, palpitations, and stimulant psychosis. A very good point was brought up about abandoned substances. 10 plus years ago we thought we would have a prescription myostatin inhibitor. For thise that don't know, myostatin decreases muscle size. It does this to help the body reduce the amount of calories it needs to take in.

The drugs had to be abandoned because of health risks discovered in clinical trials on humans.

Cardarine sounds great but, Im going to research this. See what I can dig up at the professional level.

 

[MedRat]

Heres some very good information. Youll see this substance has been studied several times. Each time cancer was found in multiple tissue types.

The doses administered to the mice and rats were extremely high. 30 milligrams per 2.2lbs of bodyweight. It reads kilogram but thats what a kilo is, 2.2lbs.

Each type of rat or mouse would have its own formula to factor Human Equivolancy Dosage.

The animals were given 3grams or 3000 milligrams of this for weeks on end. One study lasted exactly two years. Who in their right mind is going to do something like this?
https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine

 

[MedRat]

Its still possible someone could pick this back up and turn it into a prescription drug. Ive been reading information published on some of the government websites. Ive watch substances get denied several times by the FDA. The drugs creators then go off and do more studies. A year or two later the FDA is satisfied. The drug gets the green light. All the FDA requires are extensive warnings of any and all possible side effects and adverse interactions with other drugs or supplements on the market.

I just get this feeling that this could easily end up marketed as the next big anti cholesterol med for top dollars. If they can show substantial weight loss? The drug will really jump in price.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Heres some very good information. Youll see this substance has been studied several times. Each time cancer was found in multiple tissue types.

The doses administered to the mice and rats were extremely high. 30 milligrams per 2.2lbs of bodyweight. It reads kilogram but thats what a kilo is, 2.2lbs.

Each type of rat or mouse would have its own formula to factor Human Equivolancy Dosage.

The animals were given 3grams or 3000 milligrams of this for weeks on end. One study lasted exactly two years. Who in their right mind is going to do something like this?
https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine

Surely as a professional you understand how to accurately calculate a HED...

 

[MedRat]

Surely as a professional you understand how to accurately calculate a HED...

Its not part of my education. HED is more for a pharmacist. That said, im sure I could find a calculator online with no problem.

 

[MedRat]

Its very late but heres the information on how to calculate the dose. From here Ill need ro continue with this on another day.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804402/

 

[Old Witch]

Surely as a professional you understand how to accurately calculate a HED...

Yes, 30x(6/37)=4.864 or approximately 5mg/kg. For an 80kg human this would equal 389mg.

 

[MedRat]

I think you missed a step. I believe it would be closer to 40mg.

 

[Old Witch]

I think you missed a step. I believe it would be closer to 40mg.

"HED (mg/kg) = Animal Dose (mg/kg) x [Animal Km / Human Km]

Human Km = 37

Mouse Km = 3

Rat Km = 6

EXAMPLE:

Say a STUDY conducted on MICE reports that a dosage of 5mg/kg was used; what is the HED?

By calculation, the HUMAN EQUIVALENT DOSE (HED) = 5 x [3 / 37] = 0.405 mg/kg"

Extracted from elsewhere...

 

[MedRat]

Yes, when recalculated you missed the divide by 10. An easy mistake to make. As I said different animals use different formulas.

HED (mg/kg) = Animal Dose (mg/kg) x [Animal Km*/ Human Km]

Human Km*= 37

Mouse Km*= 3

Rat Km*= 6

 

[MedRat]

Yes you pulled it from Longecity. Now another report states this is how it should be calculated, wait one minute please.

 

[Old Witch]

There is no divide by ten. It is as I said. 30x(6/37) for a rat to human conversion and 30x(3/37) for a mouse. These are very high doses.

 

[MedRat]

Yes you pulled it from Longecity. Now another report states this is how it should be calculated, wait one minute please.

 

[MedRat]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&********web&rct=j&url=https://www.jkom.org/upload/31-3%2001%20[01-07].pdf&ved=2ahUKEwio0O3rmpTdAhVLmlkKHUWMCI4QFjACegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1XHpLTvnasMGWqip__atRU

 

[Old Witch]

"This HED value is further divided by a factor value of 10; thus, the initial dose in entry into man studies is 15 mg."

Starting dose for human study, not human equivalent dosage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804402/

 

[Old Witch]

"This HED value is further divided by a factor value of 10; thus, the initial dose in entry into man studies is 15 mg."

Starting dose for human study, not human equivalent dosage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804402/

 

[MedRat]

I see my error. Its very late here. This compound is going to take much more research to get any decent answer. As it stands, 10mg per day doesnt sound like it should be carcinogenic. Still, I wouldn't sell this product unless i knew for certain I wasn't decreasing someones healthspan. Its still possible to take this research and reformulate the drug.

Ive always felt the big pharmaceutical companies keep an eye on all the human lab rats here and at least review what we log about different substances. It costs a fortune to create a drug. Walking away is a big hit to the conpany and its shareholders.

 

[Old Witch]

I think it's safer than drinking TAB.

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

mg/kg (animal) x km factor (animal) / <---divided by km factor (human) = hed

its real close for the amount shown to improve mice endurance (km of 3) and the lowest amount in rats that gave cancer (km of 6). yes, the rats took it for 24 months - that can be debated, but.... it's just fat loss and you can do it *as well* using 100 other proven safe ways... why possibly risk health 30 years from now?

as far as i can see, there was no human study on endurance/fat utilization anyway, so your even betting your health that it translates...which a lot of rodent fat loss stuff doesn't, like cla, etc...

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

I wouldn't advise ephedrine. Its very easy to get tachycardia, palpitations, and stimulant psychosis. A very good point was brought up about abandoned substances.

ephedrine isn't abandoned - its still a supplement in canada, and is otc in the us. it's one of the most studied pan beta agonists in history - with some studies going at least 1 year(?) at 30mg/day. the hype was because of a couple fat high school sports players in the us deciding to down a whole bottle and do wind sprints in full gear on a 100 degree day...while dehydrated (embellished a bit for effect, but not far off). compare poison control/emergency room reports for primatene vs tylenol in the us

that said, because it *actually works* (unlike a lot of the wanna-be "e" replacements) you are correct that label directions should be followed while accessing tolerance. agree.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I wouldn't advise ephedrine. Its very easy to get tachycardia, palpitations, and stimulant psychosis. A very good point was brought up about abandoned substances. 10 plus years ago we thought we would have a prescription myostatin inhibitor. For thise that don't know, myostatin decreases muscle size. It does this to help the body reduce the amount of calories it needs to take in.

The drugs had to be abandoned because of health risks discovered in clinical trials on humans.

Cardarine sounds great but, Im going to research this. See what I can dig up at the professional level.

What are you on about? Ephedrine (and caffeine) has an incredibly well-demonstrated safety profile, and is quite safe when used responsibly, both in placebo-controlled studies and analysis/reviews of hundreds of thousands of people prescribed it.

Its still possible someone could pick this back up and turn it into a prescription drug. Ive been reading information published on some of the government websites. Ive watch substances get denied several times by the FDA. The drugs creators then go off and do more studies. A year or two later the FDA is satisfied. The drug gets the green light. All the FDA requires are extensive warnings of any and all possible side effects and adverse interactions with other drugs or supplements on the market.

I just get this feeling that this could easily end up marketed as the next big anti cholesterol med for top dollars. If they can show substantial weight loss? The drug will really jump in price.

GSK has already moved on to the next drug that is the same category of drug, something that should have the same benefits but without the same level of risk. Maybe do some research before you start hypothesizing.

Heres some very good information. Youll see this substance has been studied several times. Each time cancer was found in multiple tissue types.

The doses administered to the mice and rats were extremely high. 30 milligrams per 2.2lbs of bodyweight. It reads kilogram but thats what a kilo is, 2.2lbs.

Each type of rat or mouse would have its own formula to factor Human Equivolancy Dosage.

The animals were given 3grams or 3000 milligrams of this for weeks on end. One study lasted exactly two years. Who in their right mind is going to do something like this?
https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine

If you actually read that page in its entirety, you'd see that there were multiple studies that found increased cancer growth, not just that one. Some were shorter in duration (one study was actually ended early because of the growth), and the doses were not extremely high. Do you even HED?

 

[MedRat]

What are you on about? Ephedrine (and caffeine) has an incredibly well-demonstrated safety profile, and is quite safe when used responsibly, both in placebo-controlled studies and analysis/reviews of hundreds of thousands of people prescribed it.

GSK has already moved on to the next drug that is the same category of drug, something that should have the same benefits but without the same level of risk. Maybe do some research before you start hypothesizing.

If you actually read that page in its entirety, you'd see that there were multiple studies that found increased cancer growth, not just that one. Some were shorter in duration (one study was actually ended early because of the growth), and the doses were not extremely high. Do you even HED?

No, I do not HED. I believe I said this once already. I can spend more time reading about more substances. HED is not a factor in what I do. If I learned how to calculate HED is college than I have long forgotten it. All I remembered was there was a formula for rats and mice.

When ive read other reports from credible sources the HED always came down to a few milligrams. Personally, I became disinterested in this substance and have moved on to looking into Cordygen as a way of increasing endurance.

If I make a mistake I admit it, learn from it, and move on. As for ephedra, I have had patients with all the problems I described. Everyone has a different physiology. People react in unpredicted ways to substances. This is one of the reasons for clinical trials.

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine

this is the best webpage i've seen on gw, thanks for finding it. its brand new (only 6 months old) and i hadn't seen it yet. bravo australia! its all there - make your decision (after you do hed!!!) i doubly wouldn't touch it now.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No, I do not HED. I believe I said this once already. I can spend more time reading about more substances. HED is not a factor in what I do. If I learned how to calculate HED is college than I have long forgotten it. All I remembered was there was a formula for rats and mice.

When ive read other reports from credible sources the HED always came down to a few milligrams. Personally, I became disinterested in this substance and have moved on to looking into Cordygen as a way of increasing endurance.

If I make a mistake I admit it, learn from it, and move on. As for ephedra, I have had patients with all the problems I described. Everyone has a different physiology. People react in unpredicted ways to substances. This is one of the reasons for clinical trials.

My point is it’s irresponsible to talk about doses and their equivalents if you don’t know HED. If you don’t know the subject matter, don’t weigh in on it. It’s quite simple really. Also, the fact that you referred to ephedra when I mentioned ephedrine suggests a basic and fundamental misunderstanding of that subject matter as well, as ephedra and ephedrine are NOT inherently the same and should not be referred to interchangeably. Also, excuse me if I don’t trust your anecdotes of ephedra nearly as much as I trust multiple placebo-controlled studies and analyses of hundreds of thousands of patients using ephedrine and caffeine.

You just keep digging yourself deeper my friend.

 

[MedRat]

https://www.tga.gov.au/book-page/12-cardarine

this is the best webpage i've seen on gw, thanks for finding it. its brand new (only 6 months old) and i hadn't seen it yet. bravo australia! its all there - make your decision (after you do hed!!!) i doubly wouldn't touch it now.

You're welcome. I always try to do my best for everyone. Ive encounted several ingredients in supplements ive never heard of. Deer antler bark is one example.

My understanding of supplements is limited to vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and their variations. I know about many of the more well known steroids. Im still learning about the plethora of peptides being offered. HGH I wouldn't give to adults because the growth plates are closed. Theres risk of congestive heart failure, acromegaly, and carpal tunnel. Along with intestinal enlargement.

I know these are dose dependent but ive seen too many emergencies brought on by things that are G.R.A.S. Generally regarded as safe.

I also don't know about prohormones. Im not your guy to ask about this. Please excuse my ignorance about H.E.D. calculations.

 

[MedRat]

You're welcome. I always try to do my best for everyone. Ive encounted several ingredients in supplements ive never heard of. Deer antler bark is one example.

My understanding of supplements is limited to vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and their variations. I know about many of the more well known steroids. Im still learning about the plethora of peptides being offered. HGH I wouldn't give to adults because the growth plates are closed. Theres risk of congestive heart failure, acromegaly, and carpal tunnel. Along with intestinal enlargement.

I know these are dose dependent but ive seen too many emergencies brought on by things that are G.R.A.S. Generally regarded as safe.

I also don't know about prohormones. Im not your guy to ask about this. Please excuse my ignorance about H.E.D. calculations.

Deer Antler Velvet

 

[muscleupcrohn]

As far as endurance is concerned, here are some natural and safe options:

-PeakO2 (cordyceps etc.)
-Rhodiola
-Ashwagandha

All natural, safe, affordable, and effective.

 

[Old Witch]

My point is it’s irresponsible to talk about doses and their equivalents if you don’t know HED. If you don’t know the subject matter, don’t weigh in on it. It’s quite simple really.

Yes, and as you can see by my posting, the HED for these cardarine studies is in the 400mg daily range.

I would be willing to state that this compound is safe at our doses of 30mg daily, when cycled. Especially now that it's been on the market for several years...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes, and as you can see by my posting, the HED for these cardarine studies is in the 400mg daily range.

No, it’s not. 5mg/kg for rats was shown to increase growth. To convert that mg/kg dose to HED, multiply it by 0.16, which gives you 0.8 mg/kg. For a 70kg human, that’s 56mg.
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/Guidances/UCM078932.pdf#search='guidekines+for+industry+sfe+starting'

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Deer Antler Velvet

Does not work for increasing HGH.

 

[Old Witch]

No, it’s not. 5mg/kg for rats was shown to increase growth. To convert that mg/kg dose to HED, multiply it by 0.16, which gives you 0.8 mg/kg. For a 70kg human, that’s 56mg. You’re a doctor?
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/Guidances/UCM078932.pdf#search='guidekines+for+industry+sfe+starting'

I was referring to the 30mg/kg given to rats as referred earlier.

30mg/kgx(6/37)= approx 5mg/kg

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I was referring to the 30mg/kg given to rats as referred earlier.

30mg/kgx(6/37)= approx 5mg/kg

So you just selectively chose to ignore the multiple studies and doses that showed increased growth with lower doses? That’s arguably even more irresponsible...

 

[Old Witch]

So you just selectively chose to ignore the multiple studies and doses that showed increased growth with lower doses? That’s arguably even more irresponsible...

Nope, just maintaining a constant reference point instead of flying all over.

Arent you the guy who said the HED for a rat 30mg/kg was only 5mg total for 80kg human?

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

i must add one study that the australia page left out (properly as its not people) - the one that everyone uses as the "gw is great for endurance fat burning!!!"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706130/

so do hed for 5mg/kg mouse (performance study) and 3mg/kg female rat (cancer study) and tell me much difference? a heck, i do it

mice 5 * 3 = 15 / 37 = 0.40 mg/kg human dose for performance. so 40mg for 220 pound man. that's what the mice study showed.

rat 3 * 6 = 18 /37 = 0.48mg/kg human dose for cancer. so 48mg for 220 pound man. thats what glaxo safety study showed.

please please please stop spreading false dosage info!!!!! only ok argument is 24 months use for cancer study - thats it.

 

[MedRat]

Does not work for increasing HGH.

Im not surprised. There were two other substances maybe you know about. One was Octocosanol. The other is Phosphatidic acid.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Nope, just maintaining a constant reference point instead of flying all over.

Arent you the guy who said the HED for a rat 30mg/kg was only 5mg total for 80kg human?

An inaccurate reference point that gives a false baseline for the minimum dose associated with increased growth is worse than useless. I’m pretty sure that my last post was my first post in this thread doing HED conversions. Ask any regular here; I know how HED works. Your insistence on mentioning 30mg/kg when 5, 10, etc. mg/kg were also shown to not be safe is disingenuous.

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

Nope, just maintaining a constant reference point instead of flying all over.

see my last, above please.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

i must add one study that the australia page left out (properly as its not people) - the one that everyone uses as the "gw is great for endurance fat burning!!!"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2706130/

so do hed for 5mg/kg mouse (performance study) and 3mg/kg female rat (cancer study) and tell me much difference? a heck, i do it

mice 5 * 3 = 15 / 37 = 0.40 mg/kg human dose for performance. so 40mg for 220 pound man. that's what the mice study showed.

rat 3 * 6 = 18 /37 = 0.48mg/kg human dose for cancer. so 48mg for 220 pound man. thats what glaxo safety study showed.

please please please stop spreading false dosage info!!!!! only ok argument is 24 months use for cancer study - thats it.

Or 10mg/kg in mice (equivalent to 56mg for a 70kg human) for only six weeks as shown in one of the studies discussed in the TGA report:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14758356

Given that the the FDA recommends a factor of safety of around 10 when going from rodent studies, that means the established safe rodent dose should be divided by 10, and that lower dose used to begin human studies. Given that the equivalent of ~50mg was shown not to be safe in rodent studies, the starting human dose should be lower than 50/10, or lower than 5mg/day. But people in the fitness industry run it at 20-25mg/day with other drugs.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Im not surprised. There were two other substances maybe you know about. One was Octocosanol. The other is Phosphatidic acid.

Phosophatidic Acid has a few (several?) studies showing that it helps with strength/size progression, but if I recall, there are some studies that found it didn't work as well. I always enjoyed it, especially at higher doses than the standard 750mg/day PA, and given that soy lecithin granules natrually contain 4-7% PA, you can get that dose of PA quite easily from the lecithin, as long as you can fit the few calories/fat into your diet. And the amount of isoflavones/etc in the lecithin are not nearly significant enough to negatively influence hormones/estrogen/etc.

 

[Old Witch]

Or 10mg/kg in mice (equivalent to 56mg for a 70kg human) for only six weeks as shown in one of the studies discussed in the TGA report:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14758356

Given that the the FDA recommends a factor of safety of around 10 when going from rodent studies, that means the established safe rodent dose should be divided by 10, and that lower dose used to begin human studies...

Yes, I covered that earlier, however the safety factor should not be confused with actual human equivalency.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes, however the safety factor should not be confused with actual human equivalency.

Even without the factor of safety, why do you incessantly refer to the 30mg/kg study and ignore the multiple 3, 5, 10, etc. mg/kg studies? The thing is, we haven't established a safe dose, so even going to any human studies/doses is irresponsible and ill advised, which is why GSK and Ligand both stopped human studies and abandoned development of the drug. The lowest dose was 3mg/kg, and was not found to be safe. That's equivalent to 33.6mg for a 70kg human, and we have people using 20-25mg/day, which is VERY, VERY close to that 33.6mg. Not to mention that people are using it with other drugs, which makes it a whole new ballgame, and completely uncharted territoroy.

 

[Old Witch]

mg/kg (animal) x km factor (animal) / <---divided by km factor (human) = hed

its real close for the amount shown to improve mice endurance (km of 3) and the lowest amount in rats that gave cancer (km of 6). yes, the rats took it for 24 months - that can be debated, but.... it's just fat loss and you can do it *as well* using 100 other proven safe ways... why possibly risk health 30 years from now?

as far as i can see, there was no human study on endurance/fat utilization anyway, so your even betting your health that it translates...which a lot of rodent fat loss stuff doesn't, like cla, etc...

Actually, it seems more likely that much as is the case for saccharine and some other proven rodent carcinogens, this compound's effects translate to human usage (as we all know, having used it) yet its carcinogenic properties are what do not translate. In the years now that this has been around (10since I heard of it) we have not had any cause for alarm in actual real world usage.

 

[Old Witch]

Even without the factor of safety, why do you incessantly refer to the 30mg/kg study and ignore the multiple 3, 5, 10, etc. mg/kg studies? The thing is, we haven't established a safe dose, so even going to any human studies/doses is irresponsible and ill advised, which is why GSK and Ligand both stopped human studies and abandoned development of the drug. The lowest dose was 3mg/kg, and was not found to be safe. That's equivalent to 33.6mg for a 70kg human, and we have people using 20-25mg/day, which is VERY, VERY close to that 33.6mg. Not to mention that people are using it with other drugs, which makes it a whole new ballgame, and completely uncharted territoroy.

Why do you insist a human only weighs 70kg and not 90kg?