Best Non Stim Supplements for a Cut?

[f4iguy]

What do you like to use when cutting body fat? I'm looking for something non stim. Does anything exist similar to Metformin with the ability to lower sugar in the blood?

 

[JCR97]

What do you like to use when cutting body fat? I'm looking for something non stim. Does anything exist similar to Metformin with the ability to lower sugar in the blood?

I would use a GDA. Although it doesn't lower blood sugar but I do think that MK677 does?

Lower carbs + GDA = greater fat loss

IMO what's your thoughts?

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Berberine was put up against metformin in one study I know of with decent results https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2410097/
"Compared with metformin, berberine exhibited an identical effect in the regulation of glucose metabolism, such as HbA1c, FBG, PBG, fasting insulin and postprandial insulin. In the regulation of lipid metabolism, berberine activity is better than metformin. By week 13, triglycerides and total cholesterol in the berberine group had decreased and were significantly lower than in the metformin group"

 

[john.patterson]

What do you like to use when cutting body fat? I'm looking for something non stim. Does anything exist similar to Metformin with the ability to lower sugar in the blood?

There aren't any GDA products that are as powerful as Metformin, but using a nutrient partitioning product like Slinmax would definitely be helpful for controlling blood sugar and insulin. I typically use 1 cap of Slinmax before moderate carb meals, and 2 caps on my high carb or refeed days before heavy carb meals.

A GDA can also help with bloating and make you look leaner and fuller. This would probably be a good place to start. Can you not use stims?

 

[Slims]

I was going to create a different thread but as it's relevant,
What form of Carnitine are people using to aid in their fat loss goals?

 

[Juicedeez utz]

I was going to create a different thread but as it's relevant,
What form of Carnitine are people using to aid in their fat loss goals?

None

 

[Slims]

None

Carnitine keeps appearing in the non-stim product labels, but in different forms. Is it not as effective as it's touted to be?

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Haha I shouldn't have said that really but numerous studies have shown conflicting results, with many showing no added benefit from supplementing L-carnitine during a dieting phase. Eat lots of red meat, it contains an ample amount of l-carnitine if you want more of it in your diet

 

[The Solution]

If your looking into a GDA. Predator by Chaos and Pain can not be beat. I have tried it compared to almost anything else produced on the market and its the best one I have used. The only one I have not used or tried yet is Slintensity by Evomuse, and i know dsade makes a great product. Compared to Slinmax, AP, Glycophase, and the others suggested on here its the only GDA I have used and added calories and still got leaner. That is the best product you could buy. Besides that Forskolin95 and the GDA would be two great additions if you have money to spend and don't want a stim, but are they 100% Necessary? Absolutely not
pyrobatt

 

[justhere4comm]

Most non-stim products will be showing themselves useful in the minimum of 8 weeks, and more appropriately 12-16 weeks. They aid in the process nicely in many ways. This is why we came out with a non-stim fat burner. You can add any stim you want should you wish to, but it isn't necessary beyond a deficit, long-term programming, and consistency.

Have a look at our current logging opportunity:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/company-promotions/294972-vein-nutrition-logging.html

 

[Young Gotti]

I really enjoy tt-33 each and everytime I use it....maybe it works with my body better but I enjoy the results

 

[Beta]

In my experience, Evomuse's DCP tops the list of the most effective non-stim fat burners I've used. Should actually be receiving my 2x chaos and pain predator GDA in the mail today and looking forward to experiencing the hype of Pred myself.

 

[f4iguy]

There aren't any GDA products that are as powerful as Metformin, but using a nutrient partitioning product like Slinmax would definitely be helpful for controlling blood sugar and insulin. I typically use 1 cap of Slinmax before moderate carb meals, and 2 caps on my high carb or refeed days before heavy carb meals.

A GDA can also help with bloating and make you look leaner and fuller. This would probably be a good place to start. Can you not use stims?

I am currently using a stack consisting of synephrine, chromium picolinate, and EGCG with great effect. I'm not looking to add an additional stim on top of the caffeine I already ingest and the synephrine. I like learning about things so I thought I'd pick the minds of our members for the non stim fat reduction category. I've never researched it. Thanks for the input!

 

[niklasericson]

What do you like to use when cutting body fat? I'm looking for something non stim. Does anything exist similar to Metformin with the ability to lower sugar in the blood?

TTA (Tetradecyl-thioacetic-acid) at 1500mg/ed

 

[cubsfan815]

Evomuse has some good ones.

DCP
Brite
Epitome
Supernova

I have used Performax Labs SlinMax with Brite and Supernova before with great success. SlinMax before high carbs, Brite 3x a day, SN morning after shower.

 

[ericool007]

TTA is about the only thing stim free that works, if it didnt make me bloated I would like it a lot more.
T3 works well too but you need to be extra careful i would easily choose ephedrine or albuterol over messing with t3

 

[Juicedeez utz]

I'm going to get a pot of predator now, not only because I trust TheSolution opinion but because I've been a huge fan of AD matador, thinking it was the best on the market and now looking over predators profile it does actually look a lot better.

 

[BloodManor]

I'm going to get a pot of predator now, not only because I trust TheSolution opinion but because I've been a huge fan of AD matador, thinking it was the best on the market and now looking over predators profile it does actually look a lot better.

You will not be disappointed at all. Predator has been my go to gda for a while now and I have tried many others. Ask anyone who has tried it and they all say the same -"it's amazing" and "its strong so one pill is all you will need most of the time"

 

[AntM1564]

To add to the good information in here, I would vouch for forskolin or anything with it. A lot of fat burners that have forskolin do contain some type of stimulant. PES does sell solo forskolin though. Another option could be AlphaMax XT. Yes, it is a natural anabolic, but I personally use AlphaMax XT for a recomp/lean bulk or during a cut, mostly due to the forskolin. There are other ingredients that would be useful during a cut, however, such as ashwagandha to help control cortisol, DHAA to also control cortisol, tongkat ali to help with libido, which can sometimes go down during a cut. With a proper diet and training routine, AlphaMax XT can assist your cut by helping you maintain your lean mass, which can be difficult to do at time, during a cut. Here is some good information on forskolin for you which I would add, via AlphaMax XT or PES (solo ingredient).

Forskolin increases metabolism, burns fat, breaks down triglycerides, and increases lean-body mass
The thyroid stimulating strength of forskolin has been compared to TSH (thyrotropin). Thyroid hormone levels are important for leanness.
Forskolin has increased total testosterone by 16% in male subjects during a 12-week trial.

https://www.t-nation.com/supplements/burn-fat-pile-on-muscle-with-forskolin

Fat Mass:  The colforsin group lost 4.52 kilograms (9,94 pounds) of fat, plus or minus 5.74 kilograms, while the placebo group lost only 0.51 kilograms (1.12 pounds), plus or minus 1.91 kilograms.
Lean Body Mass:  The colforsin group gained 3.71 kilograms of lean body mass (8.162 pounds), plus or minus 4.07 kilograms, while the placebo group gained 1.57 kilograms (3.45 pounds), plus or minus 2.56 kilograms.
Testosterone:  The Testosterone of the colforsin group rose 33.7 percent, while it decreased 18.35 percent in the placebo group.

https://www.t-nation.com/supplements/dont-kill-the-messenger

The total body weight of a mixed group of men and women in a 12-week study decreased from 74.7 kilograms to 73.5 kilograms while experiencing increases in lean body mass (without weight training).

https://www.t-nation.com/supplements/tip-the-t-boosting-capsule-you-need-to-take

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16129715

https://legionathletics.com/forskolin/

http://www.infinitelabs.com/forskolin-reviews/

 

[banjobounce]

I could be wrong, but I am thinking that mk 677 will raise fasting glucose levels in many individuals, which is why some stack it with berberine before bed. Gynema, bitter melon, carnitine, and mcts pre workout are my go to's.

I would use a GDA. Although it doesn't lower blood sugar but I do think that MK677 does?

Lower carbs + GDA = greater fat loss

IMO what's your thoughts?

 

[JCR97]

I could be wrong, but I am thinking that mk 677 will raise fasting glucose levels in many individuals, which is why some stack it with berberine before bed. Gynema, bitter melon, carnitine, and mcts pre workout are my go to's.

Yeah you're right I wasn't entirely sure but I knew it played with sugar levels in your blood somehow. I am going to use MK in the future so I will def get something to control that. I know that you can use a blood sugar monitor they're like 20$ at the pharmacy. Just not sure I still have to think about how I will implement all this.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Yeah you're right I wasn't entirely sure but I knew it played with sugar levels in your blood somehow. I am going to use MK in the future so I will def get something to control that. I know that you can use a blood sugar monitor they're like 20$ at the pharmacy. Just not sure I still have to think about how I will implement all this.

10mg does not effect BG in studies it was 25-50mg that did this.

 

[JCR97]

10mg does not effect BG in studies it was 25-50mg that did this.

Oh ok good thing you mentioned this although usually people are overdoing it by taking >25mg. Somatozine does this nicely by making 12.5mg per cap.

 

[compan]

I'd say any of the non-stim options from Evomuse would be good additions. KSM-66 and Forskolin 95% too. This is from a pure composition suggestion, not blood sugar.

 

[niklasericson]

I'd say any of the non-stim options from Evomuse would be good additions. KSM-66 and Forskolin 95% too. This is from a pure composition suggestion, not blood sugar.

Forskolin is great stuff but unfortunately my toilet like it too.
Upset stomach is just the middle name.

 

[Beta]

Forskolin is great stuff but unfortunately my toilet like it too.
Upset stomach is just the middle name.

It helped for me to work up to the 50mg in small incremental doses over a week to let my body get acclimated to it.

 

[DWeaver]

PES Shift isn't exactly a non stim but most people can't tell it's a stim product. Anyway...... I've tried almost all appetite suppressants/fat burners and Shift has been the best one for me. Somehow it destroys my appetite at 2 caps first thing in the morning and it's really cheap for what all is in it.

 

[AntM1564]

PES Shift isn't exactly a non stim but most people can't tell it's a stim product. Anyway...... I've tried almost all appetite suppressants/fat burners and Shift has been the best one for me. Somehow it destroys my appetite at 2 caps first thing in the morning and it's really cheap for what all is in it.

Seeing as how the OP is looking for non stim options, Shift wouldn't fit that since it contains Synephrine.

 

[AntM1564]

I'd say any of the non-stim options from Evomuse would be good additions. KSM-66 and Forskolin 95% too. This is from a pure composition suggestion, not blood sugar.

Both of those ingredients are in AlphaMax XT, at full doses. Evomuse's line would be a nice addition to any cut. I have been eyeing some of their TD for the future.

Forskolin is great stuff but unfortunately my toilet like it too.
Upset stomach is just the middle name.

Some cannot handle F95 at all, some need to work up to a 50 mg dose and some can have a 100 mg dose at once no problem. It is probably one of the most user dependent ingredients I have seen.

 

[Mike Arnold]

There aren't any GDA products that are as powerful as Metformin, but using a nutrient partitioning product like Slinmax would definitely be helpful for controlling blood sugar and insulin. I typically use 1 cap of Slinmax before moderate carb meals, and 2 caps on my high carb or refeed days before heavy carb meals.

A GDA can also help with bloating and make you look leaner and fuller. This would probably be a good place to start. Can you not use stims?

Actually, as the poster said above, berberine has been clinically proven to work as well as metformin, mg per mg. I prefer it...for many reasons.

 

[Mike Arnold]

None

L-carnitine can be a GREAT addition to a fat loss program , but ONLY if it is an injectable version. Oral carnitine won't do jack****, as its oral bioavailability is poor. Believe me when I tell you that plenty of top bodybuilders, including pros (several of whom I know) are using injectable carnatine during prep. It works. The reason the research is so fuzzy regarding its efficacy is because oral versions are being used. That's like trying to swallow testosterone and then saying it doesn't work to build musle.

 

[Mike Arnold]

error.

 

[Mike Arnold]

The best non-stim OTC fat burner? That's an easy one.

GW-501516 @ 20-30 mg/day. No more need to debate.

GW does so much to help drop fat, without ANY of the undesirable side effects common to stim-based fat burners.

GW directly and significantly increases the rate of oxidation (fat burning). It dramatically increases insulin sensitivity (better than almost any insulin sensitizer/GDA available), and it also improves glucose transport into muscles, so you stay bigger and fuller while dieting.

Sorry, but nothing on the OTC market (especially non-stim products) are going to beat GW in this regard.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

L-carnitine can be a GREAT addition to a fat loss program , but ONLY if it is an injectable version. Oral carnitine won't do jack****, as its oral bioavailability is poor. Believe me when I tell you that plenty of top bodybuilders, including pros (several of whom I know) are using injectable carnatine during prep. It works. The reason the research is so fuzzy regarding its efficacy is because oral versions are being used. That's like trying to swallow testosterone and then saying it doesn't work to build musle.

Yeah true and I didn't mention it because who is going to want to inject carnitine when most of us are hobbyists? Plus injectable carnitine is all vet grade here (UK, I've searched) and near impossible to get without a licence

 

[Slims]

The best non-stim OTC fat burner? That's an easy one.

GW-501516 @ 20-30 mg/day. No more need to debate.

GW does so much to help drop fat, without ANY of the undesirable side effects common to stim-based fat burners.

GW directly and significantly increases the rate of oxidation (fat burning). It dramatically increases insulin sensitivity (better than almost insulin sensitizer/GDA available). It also improves glucose transport into muscles, so you stay bigger and fuller while dieting.

Sorry, but nothing on the OTC market (especially non-stim products) are going to beat GW in this regard.

Seeing as GW/Cardarine isn't hormonal but is still technically a SARM, does it require PCT?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yeah true and I didn't mention it because who is going to want to inject carnitine when most of us are hobbyists? Plus injectable carnitine is all vet grade here (UK, I've searched) and near impossible to get without a licence

That sucks. I know it's not always easy to get depending on where you live.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Seeing as GW/Cardarine isn't hormonal but is still technically a SARM, does it require PCT?

It is NOT a SARM. There was a lot of confusion in the beginning and it mistakenly got labeled as a SARM (I thought the same a few years ago myself), but it is not a SARM at all. Actually, it is a PPAR Beta Agonist...and it is literally the ONLY drug in its class on the OTC market (there is one other, but it has too many problems with bioavailability and pharmakokinetics to be effective).

So no, PCT is not needed at all.

You will probably eventually realize that I just started selling GW, so I may as well say it now. Few guys over here know me, so some will think I am saying this stuff about GW simply to make sales, but anyone who knows me (1,000's elsewhere) know that is not true--that I will say it how it is regardless of whether it is something I sell or not. Besides, I was saying this about GW for YEARS before I even opened a supp company. GW has a ton of clinical research supporting its effectiveness...and the anecdotal evidence is VERY impressive. I ONLY sell things I believe in...and that is exactly why I selected GW as my 4th product...because it is one of VERY few OTC products that lives up to its hype...and surpasses it in some ways.

 

[JCR97]

It is NOT a SARM. There was a lot of confusion in the beginning and it mistakenly got labeled as a SARM (I thought the same a few years ago myself), but it is not a SARM at all. Actually, it is a PPAR Beta Agonist...and it is literally the ONLY drug in its class on the OTC market (there is one other, but it has too many problems with bioavailability and pharmakokinetics to be effective).

So no, PCT is not needed at all.

You will probably eventually realize that I just started selling GW, so I may as well say it now. Few guys over here know me, so some will think I am saying this stuff about GW simply to make sales, but anyone who knows me (1,000's elsewhere) know that is not true--that I will say it how it is regardless of whether it is something I sell or not. Besides, I was saying this about GW for YEARS before I even opened a supp company. GW has a ton of clinical research supporting its effectiveness...and the anecdotal evidence is VERY impressive. I ONLY sell things I believe in...and that is exactly why I selected GW as my 4th product...because it is one of VERY few OTC products that lives up to its hype...and surpasses it in some ways.

Seems very promising what do you think about stacking it with Ephedrine and Caffeine?


I know this is a nonstim thread I don't want to derail it but just a quick question sorry OP.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Seems very promising what do you think about stacking it with Ephedrine and Caffeine?


I know this is a nonstim thread I don't want to derail it but just a quick question sorry OP.

The great thing about GW is that it can be stacked with virtually everything...and because it works through completely different mechanisms than ANY other fat burner on the market, it will significantly increase one's fat burning efforts no matter what it is used with.

This is not so with many other products. For example, all stim-based products stimulate fat burning through the same or similar mechanisms, which is why adding more and more stims to one's fat loss program doesn't improve results beyond a certain point...and greatly intensifies their side effects.

In contrast, GW significantly improves results under all circumstances, has virtually no noticeable side effects, and does not have any contraindications with other fat loss products.

 

[Slims]

The great thing about GW is that it can be stacked with virtually everything...and because it works through completely different mechanisms than ANY other fat burner on the market, it will significantly increase one's fat burning efforts no matter what it is used with.

This is not so with many other products. For example, all stim-based products stimulate fat burning through the same or similar mechanisms, which is why adding more and more stims to one's fat loss program doesn't improve results beyond a certain point...and greatly intensifies their side effects.

In contrast, GW significantly improves results under all circumstances, has virtually no noticeable side effects, and does not have any contraindications with other fat loss products.

This is sounding more and more interesting the more I read about it. Quite considering buying myself a run.
How effective are GW's fat shredding benefits as a stand alone? And, I know this is a very vague question but, how long would it take to start seeing results if diet and training were both in check?

 

[JCR97]

The great thing about GW is that it can be stacked with virtually everything...and because it works through completely different mechanisms than ANY other fat burner on the market, it will significantly increase one's fat burning efforts no matter what it is used with.

This is not so with many other products. For example, all stim-based products stimulate fat burning through the same or similar mechanisms, which is why adding more and more stims to one's fat loss program doesn't improve results beyond a certain point...and greatly intensifies their side effects.

In contrast, GW significantly improves results under all circumstances, has virtually no noticeable side effects, and does not have any contraindications with other fat loss products.

Awesome thanks man! I noticed you guys have a beta version out what's the formula like I couldn't see anything on the formula.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

ALOT of people have been hit or miss with GW, I think it's branding because I've never had a problem. Direct fat loss doesn't exist IMO you have to put the work in! I use on 10mg a day usually and get incredible endurance which makes cardio and training intensity easier = better fat loss. I'd say personally it's no better than ephedrine and not as good as clen by a long shot but also has no sides apart from the ONE mega dosing study that gave RATS cancer. Too many people talk about the study but no one I know of has contracted cancer from it yet haha

 

[Slims]

ALOT of people have been hit or miss with GW, I think it's branding because I've never had a problem. Direct fat loss doesn't exist IMO you have to put the work in! I use on 10mg a day usually and get incredible endurance which makes cardio and training intensity easier = better fat loss. I'd say personally it's no better than ephedrine and not as good as clen by a long shot but also has no sides apart from the ONE mega dosing study that gave RATS cancer. Too many people talk about the study but no one I know of has contracted cancer from it yet haha

Tbf dude, they say everything causes cancer these days. I remember reading an article late last year that said eating more than two tomatoes a day increased cancer risk and another that said drinking more than three cups of coffee increased cancer risk by 78%.

 

[Mike Arnold]

ALOT of people have been hit or miss with GW, I think it's branding because I've never had a problem.
I agree. There are a LOT of garbage products out there, especially in the SARM sector.

Direct fat loss doesn't exist IMO you have to put the work in!
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my prior post, but when I said that GW causes "direct" fat loss I wasn't implying that the user could sit on his ass all day long eating ice ream and still lose a bunch of fat (although anyone still could if his calories were below maintenance). Work ethic is only relevant in the sense that it can further enhance one's fat loss efforts by not only increasing the rate at which fat is lost, but by increasing the percentage of adipose tissue lost relative to lean mass. However, a strong work ethic (exercise), or even any exercise at all, is not a "requirement" for fat loss. Just ask any of the starving people in Africa, nearly all of whom are shredded to the bone--literally. Obviously, these individuals lose a LOT of lean mass (which ultimately leads to their death), but the point is that one does not necessarily need to manipulate any other variables aside from calories in order to lose fat.

Now, as mentioned above, there are numerous factors which can influence the percentage of adipose tissue lost relative to lean mass, with exercise being one of them...but the truth is that someone can be a completely lazy turd and still get shredded. They may lose a ton of muscle in the process, but they can still get shredded none the less. Obviously, this is NOT an approach I recommend.

So, when I said that GW directly increases fat loss, I meant that it targets the final step in the fat loss process. Degree of effort in the gym was not relevant to the point I was trying to make. Anyway, as I was saying, GW targets fat "directly" in the sense that it increases the rate of oxidation (the burning of fat for fuel), which is the final step in the fat loss process. On the other hand, a drug like GH could be said to induce fat loss "indirectly", as it does not actually increase the rate of calorie "burning". It only sets the body up so that bodyfat is more likely to be burned for fuel. How? By increasing the rate of lipolysis. Lipolysis is the process of releasing fat from the fat cell into the bloodstream so that it CAN be use for fuel. GW comes along after GH has already done its job and helps shuttle those circulating free fatty acids into the mitochondria of the cell, where they are then burned for fuel. This is what I meant when I said GW causes "direct" fat loss.

I use on 10mg a day usually and get incredible endurance which makes cardio and training intensity easier = better fat loss. I'd say personally it's no better than ephedrine and not as good as clen by a long shot but also has no sides
Oh, I would absolutely agree that powerful stims like ephedrine, clen, etc, are more powerful fat loss agents, but not necessarily because they cause more fat loss directly. You see, stims not only increase one's metabolic rate (calorie burning) and initiate lipolysis, but they also tend to suppress one's appetite. This usually leads to reduced caloric intake and therefore, an increased rate of fat loss. This later effect often contributes to a significant portion of the results one experiences when using stim products. If this appetite suppressant effect was removed, many people would experience significantly less fat loss.

I place GW on par with growth hormone from a fat loss standpoint, but using both together is an even better stack because of their varied mechanisms of action. This provides a synergy not seen with most other "stacks". In my opinion its lack of side effects, as well as its positive effects on health, makes it a far superior option for anyone who doesn't want to experience the side effects of stimulants. I know many people like stims, but I personally can't stand them. They're very unhealthy to take long-term (cortisol elevation, vasoconstriction, increased blood pressure, cardiac remodeling, dopaminergic system damage, impaired recovery, reduced sleep quality, potential long-term withdrawal/depression/lethargy after long-term use, etc, etc, etc).

Stimulants certainly have their place in a bodybuilder's fat loss repertoire, but they are only one piece of the puzzle and should not be relied on as one's only fat loss aide, assuming the indovidual wishes to not only maximize fat loss, but minimize lean mass loss.

apart from the ONE mega dosing study that gave RATS cancer. Too many people talk about the study but no one I know of has contracted cancer from it yet haha
Yep. The study was TOTAL bull****...and highly flawed. GW has never been shown to promote cancer in humans. Furthermore, people love to point out that one study, in which they gave rats the human equivalent of like 2 pounds of GW per day for their entire lives (LOL), but they neglect to mention the other (and more numerous ) studies which show that GW actually prevents cancer in several bodily systems. In fact, this is one of the reasons for which GW was originally developed. The cancer research in that single study is highly flawed...and I will be posting an article explaining why this is the case in a week or so. There are soooo many substances we consume in our food and drink every day that have been proven to cause cancer when administered to rats at human equivalent doses well below what was used in the GW study, yet these substances are legally used all the time in our food and water supply.

...

 

[Mike Arnold]

This is sounding more and more interesting the more I read about it. Quite considering buying myself a run.
How effective are GW's fat shredding benefits as a stand alone?
I would say it is about as effective as GH, but an optimal dose is probably around 20-30 mg/day...certainly not 10 mg (which is the dose normally recommended for endurance enhancement).

And, I know this is a very vague question but, how long would it take to start seeing results if diet and training were both in check?
Again, it's similar to GH in this regard. People usually run it for at least 2 months--not because you need to in order to see results, but because you will keep seeing results the longer you use it. Since it is not unpleasant to use, doesn't really have any noticeable side effects, and even supplies numerous health benefits, it makes it much easier to run it for extended periods of time.

[BI]f you are considering trying it, I doubt you will find a better deal than what I offer, especially one that comes in caps.
[/B]

....

 

[Slims]

Could you stack GW with something like MK 677? So you'd have the fat releasing benefits of the GH and then the fat oxidization benefits of the GW?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Could you stack GW with something like MK 677? So you'd have the fat releasing benefits of the GH and then the fat oxidization benefits of the GW?

If I tell you to do that it will just look like I am trying to get you to buy more stuff, so I will just say that a lot of people do that.

 

[DWeaver]

I never had any luck with GW. It made me feel hypo and very hungry.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Awesome thanks man! I noticed you guys have a beta version out what's the formula like I couldn't see anything on the formula.

It's a solo GW product (60 caps 10 mg each).

 

[DWeaver]

It's a solo GW product (60 caps 10 mg each).

What site?