Is this a good source of PA?

[clown007]

A Bulk food store has the following Lecithin granules...

Lecithin granules are made from soybeans. Pure lecithin granules contain 97% pure phospholipids and have essentially all of the soybean oil removed from them. Pure lecithin granules contain no liquid lecithin. Pure lecithin granules contain no protein. If lecithin granules are made from soy flour and liquid lecithin, the phosphatidycholine level drops to approximately 3%. They are thought to help in cardiovascular health, liver and cell functions, keeping fatty deposits off the inside of your arteries and other possible health benefits.

Nutrition Facts
Per 100g
Amount % Daily Value
Calories 700
Fat 53 g 82 %
Saturated 12 g 60 %
+ Trans 0 g
Cholesterol 0 mg
Sodium 30 mg 1 %
Carbohydrates 8 g 3 %
Fibre 0 g 0 %
Sugars 4 g
Protein 0 g
Vitamin A 0 %
Vitamin C 0 %
Calcium 20 %
Iron 30 %


Would this suffice as the appropriate source for PA?
And is 7% PA yield what we are looking for in the lecithin?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Yup, if they deoiled and around 97% Phosphatides then they will likely also have on average 7% PA content..

 

[clown007]

Ok great!
And dosing of say 1gram pre and 1g post workout would be a viable strategy?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Ok great!
And dosing of say 1gram pre and 1g post workout would be a viable strategy?

Yip, if thats what suits you best then that is fine. I think at least 2 members have posted stating they use a similiar pre-post dosing strategy with success (kbayne and muscleupcrohn).

 

[TheFugitive]

Take one dose (AM) with breakfast and another (PM) with dinner

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Take one dose (AM) with breakfast and another (PM) with dinner

Why are you suggesting this?

 

[TheFugitive]

Why are you suggesting this?

I notice a difference when splitting the dose vs taking it all at once. I think this is crucial especially when starting your run

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I notice a difference when splitting the dose vs taking it all at once. I think this is crucial especially when starting your run

Why breakfast and dinner and not pre and post workout?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I notice a difference when splitting the dose vs taking it all at once. I think this is crucial especially when starting your run

If youre not experiencing any issues, I dont believe splitting your dose like you are suggesting will have any benefits whatsoever; if anything, I think it may be detrimental.

 

[Admin]

If youre not experiencing any issues, I dont believe splitting your dose like you are suggesting will have any benefits whatsoever; if anything, I think it may be detrimental.

Why?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Why?

You want certain levels associated with PA peaking periwo, and these levels are only peaked for 3 or so hours post ingestion. On a training day, dosing PA hours away from your workout is less effective than having that 3hr 'peak window' periwo. Relatedly, you also want to maximise muscular uptake, and prewo (or post if you must split) is ideal (as per ArA).

 

[Admin]

You want certain levels associated with PA peaking periwo, and these levels are only peaked for 3 or so hours post ingestion. On a training day, dosing PA hours away from your workout is less effective than dosing in that 3hr window. Relatedly, you also want to maximise muscular uptake, and prewo (or post if you must split) is ideal (as per ArA).

Yes but how do you know the rate at which the granules are being digested?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Yes but how do you know the rate at which the granules are being digested?

I think this was addressed in one of the other threads, Ill find the quotes (was either KDD, De_eB or MrC) and paste here.

 

[Admin]

Please do because the GI issues could be a sign they are not being digested properly. Most packages say to take it with food (sprinkle over food) because its an emulsifier of fats....not sure taking so much at once is actually wise and it might be better spread out.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Oh for sure, if you experience gi issues you should certainly consider alternate dosing protocols.

This is not to deflect from your query, however, as to the typical digestion rate of the granules.

 

[Admin]

Well I agree with your premise with supplementation, but thats not what we're really talking about here. Its like telling you to space out your t-bone steaks pre and post workout to get all the benefits of creatine because the studies on creatine supplementation agreed with that timing. Its apples and oranges and wondering if the granules have some sort of delayed effect due to digestion (issues or not).

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Well I agree with your premise with supplementation, but thats not what we're really talking about here. Its like telling you to space out your t-bone steaks pre and post workout to get all the benefits of creatine because the studies on creatine supplementation agreed with that timing. Its apples and oranges and wondering if the granules have some sort of delayed effect due to digestion (issues or not).

Re the creatine-steak analogy, do you agree that the timing of PA ingestion is important to the desired effects, as opposed to creatine ingestion (where ingestion is, by comparison, irrelevant)?

 

[Driven2lift]

Re the creatine-steak analogy, do you agree that the timing of PA ingestion is important to the desired effects, as opposed to creatine ingestion (where ingestion is, by comparison, irrelevant)?

The point was that the digestion timing is different in a source like SL , or creatine in steak

Compared to taking just creatine
Or just PA

 

[NewAgeMayan]

The point was that the digestion timing is different in a source like SL , or creatine in steak

Compared to taking just creatine
Or just PA

Ok, just making sure I wasnt missing some other point.

 

[Admin]

The point was that the digestion timing is different in a source like SL , or creatine in steak

Compared to taking just creatine
Or just PA

Exactly.

And I'm not sure its even an issue. We don't know.

 

[Driven2lift]

Exactly. And I'm not sure its even an issue. We don't know.

Agreed,
But if their argument is that timing is relevant as brought up before its something to definitely consider

 

[NewAgeMayan]

My suspicion is that, based on the studies and what minds more intelligent than mine have recommended, because we want to maximise muscular uptake of PA and because we want PA in our system periwo (due to one hypothesised MoA), dosing prewo is a 'best case' scenario. That is, perhaps with all the variables endemic to digestion in the messy real non-study world (what people have eaten and when), the recommendation to dose soyl granules prewo is merely playing the odds hopefully in ones favour.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

My suspicion is that, based on the studies and what minds more intelligent than mine have recommended, because we want to maximise muscular uptake of PA and because we want PA in our system periwo (due to one hypothesised MoA), dosing prewo is a 'best case' scenario. That is, perhaps with all the variables indemic to digestion in the messy real non-study world (what people have eaten and when), the recommendation to dose soyl granules prewo is merely playing the odds hopefully in ones favour.

According to the absorption study, 1.5g PA (Meditor) was able to increase PA and LPA levels independent of a physical stressor/exercise, and 1 of the 2 PA studies that showed gains in LBM and strength didn't control dose timing (I'm going to assume that some people probably took their daily 750mg serving with breakfast, lunch, or dinner instead of pre or post workout). With these things in mind, I'd probably say that it's "acceptable" to take your PA (as granules) any time in the day; in other words, I THINK you should notice benefits of PA even if you don't take your granules pre-workout. As you said, I'd still recommend to take the granules pre-workout if your stomach can handle it, in the hopes of having ideal timing, and also because some people notice increased focus and/or energy with the granules.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

With these things in mind, I'd probably say that it's "acceptable" to take your PA (as granules) any time in the day; in other words, I THINK you should notice benefits of PA even if you don't take your granules pre-workout.

I dont disagree; Im certainly not claiming that dosing away from your workout will prove absolutely ineffective. My choosing to use the word "detrimental" above to describe the Fooj's recommendation was clumsy on my part.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Exactly.

And I'm not sure its even an issue. We don't know.

Okay, this below dosnt precisely address your question regarding the digestion timing of soy lecithin granules, but I guess it further highlights the thinking behind dosing prewo:

The fact that you should be taking it pre-workout has nothing to do with whether its effects are intra/extracellular and everything to do with at what point in time you can most effectively deliver phospholipids to skeletal muscle.

...

Think about it, when can you shuttle phospholipids into cell membranes, and skeletal muscle most effectively?

(Hint: Consider the maximizing arachidonic acid absorption thread)

When exercising!

This has nothing to do with whether its effects are intra/extracellular, and everything to do with the fact that you want this supplement to be going into skeletal muscle cell membranes, and not <anywhere else>.

...

I would take one large dose, pre-workout, with ArA, because synergy.

Perhaps the thinking is that, the further one doses from ones workout, the odds of maximal muscular delivery diminish.

I mean, to return to The Fug's recommendation, dosing 5 or so hours away from training is probably, generally, going to result in less muscular uptake than dosing periwo. And if, as per above, our goal is to maximise muscular uptake, then we should dose according to when that is most likely to occur. This dosing protocol need not be an infallible guarantee, but it would seem to be the most reasonable starting approach given what we know.

 

[Admin]

Okay, this below dosnt precisely address your question regarding the digestion timing of soy lecithin granules, but I guess it further highlights the thinking behind dosing prewo:



Perhaps the thinking is that, the further one doses from ones workout, the odds of maximal muscular delivery diminish.

I mean, to return to The Fug's recommendation, dosing 5 or so hours away from training is probably, generally, going to result in less muscular uptake than dosing periwo. And if, as per above, our goal is to maximise muscular uptake, then we should dose according to when that is most likely to occur. This dosing protocol need not be an infallible guarantee, but it would seem to be the most reasonable starting approach given what we know.

Apples and oranges. Increased nutrient uptake during exercise is simply a result of increased glut4 expression. Its also the reason massive amounts of high GI carbs are not required during/post workout.

I would say with the granules the timing is less important due to digestion factors and its has to be looked upon differently than as in supplementation, especially with reports of GI stress taking large amounts of granules. But then you're getting into coop territory....digestion and metabolism of phospholipids is not my bathroom reading. :lol:

 

[TheIronAsylum]

so would taking the granule an hr before workout and and hour after be the best bet?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I would say with the granules the timing is less important due to digestion factors and its has to be looked upon differently than as in supplementation, especially with reports of GI stress taking large amounts of granules.

It might be helpful to the discussion if we temporarily put possile GI issues to the side and removed them as a variable under consideration, if only to keep things simpler for the moment; I think its an unnecessary distraction from the guts of the argument, which to me is concerned with the typical (as opposed to atypical) digestion rate/capacity of the granules.

Just how differently are you supposing, then, the digestive factors of the granules are compared to PA supplementation? Remembering here that the supplemental form of PA is not itself a 'pure' form of PA. That is, supplemental PA is not PA that is isolated and extracted from its natural phospholipid environment: Im not convinced that it is, as you claim, apples and oranges.

 

[Admin]

It might be helpful to the discussion if we temporarily put possile GI issues to the side and removed them as a variable under consideration; I think its an unnecessary distraction from the guts of the argument, which to me is concerned with the typical (as opposed to atypical) digestion rate/capacity of the granules.

You can't since its relevant. Its like comparing whey protein and digestion of 15g vs 70g. You are going to hit a threshold in which GI distress is a factor.

Just how differently are you supposing, then, the digestive factors of the granules are compared to PA supplementation? Remembering here that the supplemental form of PA is not itself a 'pure' form of PA, as say supplemental creatine is compared to eating a tbone steak. That is, supplemental PA is not PA that is isolated and extracted from its natural phospholipid environment.

Could be huge...could be nothing. If we are to examine most supplements vs their whole food counterparts, there usually is a sizable difference in terms of timing and digestion.

 

[Admin]

Originally Posted by Mr.Cooper69
Yep, there's always a saturation point, but on the flip side, there's a saturation point for absorption of a compound in the gut. I think spacing out the doses throughout the day and consuming them with a fatty meal, as well as the preworkout dose, are the best way to go"

Found that and it sort of confirms what I thought.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Could be huge...could be nothing. If we are to examine most supplements vs their whole food counterparts, there usually is a sizable difference in terms of timing and digestion.

Unfortunately until you give me some numbers to illustrate your point here, even if wholly hypothetical, I have no idea how significant your claims are regarding 'sizeable difference' and 'timing and digestion'.

 

[Admin]

Unfortunately until you give me some numbers to illustrate your point here, even if wholly hypothetical, I have no idea how significant your claims are regarding 'sizeable difference', and 'timing and digestion'.

You seriously are going to ask me for numbers on digestion rates of whole foods vs supplements? Yes, I'm making it all up.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

You seriously are going to ask me for numbers on digestion rates of whole foods vs supplements? Yes, I'm making it all up.

lol, Im not suggesting you are making things up.

I remember the 'conversation' with Coop where you got that quote from, if memory serves that was a reply to a question I myself had. Coop seems to disagree with the idea that PA (and soy granules) should be treated/dosed as one would ArA; he didnt return to that thread to continue that particular conversation unfortunately.

The biological particulars regarding phospholipids is obviously not my expertise; there is at least one forum member who is very well read in them, though, and to whose expertise I have thus far deferred. He'd do a much more capable job than myself, but whether he'd want to or not is another matter.

 

[Admin]

lol, Im not suggesting you are making things up.

I remember the 'conversation' with Coop where you got that quote from, if memory serves that was a reply to a question I myself had. Coop seems to disagree with the idea that PA (and soy granules) should be treated/dosed as one would ArA; he didnt return to that thread to continue that particular conversation unfortunately.

The biological particulars regarding phospholipids is obviously not my expertise; there is at least one forum member who is very well read in them, though, and to whose knowledge I have thus far deferred. He'd do a much more capable job than myself, but whether he'd want to or not is another matter.

Yes, I read the conversation and its exactly why I thought Fug's initial recommendation was not that far off, which is to say granules vs. supplement might just have a different timing protocol.

Yep, there's always a saturation point, but on the flip side, there's a saturation point for absorption of a compound in the gut. I think spacing out the doses throughout the day and consuming them with a fatty meal, as well as the preworkout dose, are the best way to go"

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Yes, I read the conversation and its exactly why I thought Fug's initial recommendation was not that far off, which is to say granules vs. supplement might just have a different timing protocol.

I concede that such a scenario is *possible*, but given what Ive read regarding PA and the granules Im a long way from seeing it as *likely*.

I would very much enjoy seeing Coop and De_eB discuss this, but I cant see it actually happening; one of them is bound to dismiss the idea as 'typical overthinking'.

 

[Admin]

I concede that such a scenario is *possible*, but given what Ive read regarding PA and the granules Im a long way from seeing it as *likely*.

I would very much enjoy seeing Coop and De_eB discuss this, but I cant see it actually happening; one of them is bound to dismiss the idea as 'typical overthinking'.

If people are having GI issues, then that right there is enough to make you stop and think that maybe spacing out the dosing might be better and that actual digestion/metabolism of those granules takes a bit longer than the 3 hour period you are giving it considering the amount. Thats not just *likely*, thats common sense. Anyone that has any formal education in that area would spot it.

The people that often "over think" are the ones saying timing is absolutely crucial and want to come up with terms such as peri-workout. You are beyond splitting hairs at that point.

 

[Driven2lift]

What could be nice is tagging a few of our geniuses in here as well,
Though I am agreeing with Admin who is not refuting the points so much as saying we can't be sure,
As the rates of digestion will undoubtedly be different,
the 3 hour magically zone of efficacy could actually be 6 at lower concentration

Or otherwise

 

[ma70]

This is a good thread. Subbed for more info.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Ive repeatedly agreed, if you are having gi issues then you should try split dose. What Im not seeing, though, is how the gi issues of some should then carry over to everyone else?

I mean, some people have gi issues with dosing Forskolin empty stomach, should we all then follow the dosing strategies they must undertake to avoid such distress, even if we dont have similiar issues? If forskolin dose timing is utterly irrelevant, then we all may as well dose similiarly, as no-one has anything to lose by doing so. But if dose protocol is important, as it seems to be with PA, then why should those who dont experience GI issues dose according to the protocol of those who do?

 

[Driven2lift]

I have a steel stomach and would have no issue

But in a source like SL it will get into my system far slower than a PA extract,
Which is the comparison I'm saying,
And why SL pre may possibly not be ideal

 

[Admin]

Ive repeatedly agreed, if you are having gi issues then you should try split dose. What Im not seeing, though, is how the gi issues of some should then carry over to everyone else?

I mean, some people have gi issues with dosing Forskolin empty stomach, should we all then follow the dosing strategies they must undertake to avoid such distress, even if we dont have similiar issues? If forskolin dose timing is utterly irrelevant, then we all may as well dose similiarly, as no-one has anything to lose by doing so. But if dose protocol is important, as it seems to be with PA, then why should those who dont experience GI issues dose according to the protocol of those who do?

Because GI issues have a tendency to reveal some possible rate limiting factors of absorption....in those experiencing GI issues or not. And coops quote sort of confirms that considering what you are actually consuming.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Because GI issues have a tendency to reveal some possible rate limiting factors of absorption....in those experiencing GI issues or not. And coops quote sort of confirms that considering what you are actually consuming.

Ok, did not know that.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

...Ill rep you when Im off recharge

 

[kboxer7]

Good discussion.

While I have not experienced any GI issues at my current dosing, I have certainly wondered about the absorption rates of PA from SL. The bioscience in me thinks maybe an hour or more pre then directly post may be better than 30min pre, but that's purely speculation.

If I do recall correctly, even though studies showed PA effective in absence of physical stressors, mTOR was amplified in the presence of physical stressors (with PA). Granted mTOR would be increased with physical stressors regardless.

After all that being said, I have had measurable success at 2.5 tbsp 30/40min pre and 2 tbsp post. This includes a 1/4 " increase on my biceps inside of 5 days and an almost 1lb gain in body weight despite operating at maintenance.

 

[doogans]

Good discussion.

While I have not experienced any GI issues at my current dosing, I have certainly wondered about the absorption rates of PA from SL. The bioscience in me thinks maybe an hour or more pre then directly post may be better than 30min pre, but that's purely speculation.

If I do recall correctly, even though studies showed PA effective in absence of physical stressors, mTOR was amplified in the presence of physical stressors (with PA). Granted mTOR would be increased with physical stressors regardless.

After all that being said, I have had measurable success at 2.5 tbsp 30/40min pre and 2 tbsp post. This includes a 1/4 " increase on my biceps inside of 5 days and an almost 1lb gain in body weight despite operating at maintenance.

Are you consuming the SL on an empty stomach or with a preworkout meal?

 

[kboxer7]

Are you consuming the SL on an empty stomach or with a preworkout meal?

About an hour after my last meal. I throw them in a cup with a few oz of water and gulp/chew them down.

Then again post workout right before my whey

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Good discussion.

While I have not experienced any GI issues at my current dosing, I have certainly wondered about the absorption rates of PA from SL. The bioscience in me thinks maybe an hour or more pre then directly post may be better than 30min pre, but that's purely speculation.

If I do recall correctly, even though studies showed PA effective in absence of physical stressors, mTOR was amplified in the presence of physical stressors (with PA). Granted mTOR would be increased with physical stressors regardless.

After all that being said, I have had measurable success at 2.5 tbsp 30/40min pre and 2 tbsp post. This includes a 1/4 " increase on my biceps inside of 5 days and an almost 1lb gain in body weight despite operating at maintenance.

Thats great feedback man. Gonna try the pre/post dosing protocol myself