Anybody using Viron?

[GreenMachineX]

The label doesn't say much other than take 1 daily; is that all you guys take? Does it matter when you take it, e.g. preworkout, pre-bed, etc? Thanks.

 

[TheNietzsche]

I'm taking it right now and liking it. Definite increases in libido, and my diet has been lacking due to work stress yet I'm maintaining or going slightly up in all my lifts. I take my dose in the AM.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Cool. Just one pill daily? With food?

 

[KrisL]

The boron studies I looked at all dosed something like 10mg with breakfast, so I find it likely that that's the intended use.

Also, a post from brundel you might find useful: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/247693-tongkat-boron-supplement-4.html#post4513733

 

[GreenMachineX]

Cool. Yeah, I'm running formeron with it. Thanks.

 

[TheNietzsche]

Cool. Just one pill daily? With food?

Once daily, usually near my morning shake.

 

[mr.cooper69]

The boron studies I looked at all dosed something like 10mg with breakfast, so I find it likely that that's the intended use.Also, a post from brundel you might find useful: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/247693-tongkat-boron-supplement-4.html#post4513733

Well, on the net, boron should elevate E and increase free T. Tongkat should increase free T and lower E. But 200mg tongkat is no match for 10mg boron so I'd tend to agree with brundel. A lot of this may be related to cutting out shbg

 

[KrisL]

Interesting. How significantly does boron raise E? Is there an amount of tongkat that would be effective at lowering E?

 

[bobbybondmo]

Sub

 

[KrisL]

"...significant increase in plasma 17-B estradiol (E2) concentration (P < 0.004) and there was a trend for plasma testosterone (T) levels to be increased. The ratio of E2/T increased significantly."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10376277

 

[GreenMachineX]

"...significant increase in plasma 17-B estradiol (E2) concentration (P < 0.004) and there was a trend for plasma testosterone (T) levels to be increased. The ratio of E2/T increased significantly."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10376277

That doesn't sound good. Formeron to the rescue...?

 

[KrisL]

Lacking the full study, I'd have to guess that an AI would more than fix any issues.

But I'm seeing conflicting information out there. I guess you'd have to actually get the bloodwork done to know if you need an AI or not.

New Study Says: Boron Does Indeed Raise Free Testosterone - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

 

[kisaj]

But I'm seeing conflicting information out there. I guess you'd have to actually get the bloodwork done to know if you need an AI or not.

That will always be the case. You can certainly guess and sometimes it is evident, but often you are quite high before noticing sides.

 

[rosemont83]

Brundel recommends running an AI with Viron and coop agrees.. So everyone should run it with an AI..
I'm running formeron with viron at the moment.

 

[TheNietzsche]

Well, on the net, boron should elevate E and increase free T. Tongkat should increase free T and lower E. But 200mg tongkat is no match for 10mg boron so I'd tend to agree with brundel. A lot of this may be related to cutting out shbg

New Erase good enough? I have a bottle on hand, luckily..

 

[mr.cooper69]

New Erase good enough? I have a bottle on hand, luckily..

Yeah that should be fine for boron, more than enough

 

[horizons]

I am running this solo.
As soon as I bumped it up to two I kinda got lethargic and felt like it affected my blood pressure

1 is my sweet spot.

Libido is up but that's about it for now but really that's all I am taking it for.

I don't know wether estrogen will rise from a natural herb to warrant a AI but I can see the benefit

 

[brundel]

That doesn't sound good. Formeron to the rescue...?

It looks sketchy but really anything that raises test levels will raise estro and SHBG releases more than just free t.
So we expect estro to rise even with some anti estrogenic effects of TA. Some research indicates Tongkat works more like a serm than an AI which will allow estro to continue rising.
Either way....Formeron will crush any estro advance plus give added anabolism.

For the win.

 

[brundel]

I am running this solo.
As soon as I bumped it up to two I kinda got lethargic and felt like it affected my blood pressure

1 is my sweet spot.

Libido is up but that's about it for now but really that's all I am taking it for.

I don't know wether estrogen will rise from a natural herb to warrant a AI but I can see the benefit

Might be blood pressure dropped alot. Hard to say without a BP cuff.
Both boron and tongkat cause a host of hormonal effects. if 1 works well just keep it at 1.

I think youll be surprised though....it can really crank up T levels which of course will crank up E levels.

 

[Peppers]

Just took my 1st cap, we'll see how well I respond.

 

[brundel]

Just took my 1st cap, we'll see how well I respond.

I get a pretty good mood increase from it.

 

[Peppers]

I get a pretty good mood increase from it.

Hoping for that, been pretty easily agitated lately so that would be a huge plus.

 

[Peppers]

Actually been feeling a bit of lethargy.
Popped 2 caps the first day, now just 1 a day.

Also taking a few other natty supps for a boost.

May try 5 caps a week instead of 7, still a bit early to tell.

 

[horizons]

Yeah lethargy is strong on viron. I dose it before bed now

 

[Peppers]

Why is that though?

I would expect the opposite.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I don't believe I've noticed anything from it yet.

 

[Peppers]

We'll see how it goes, I just got labs done.
Going again in 30 days to evaluate after this current natty stack, including Viron & Formeron and a few other natty products.

 

[horizons]

Why is that though?

I would expect the opposite.

I am not sure. Kind of strange when I would have expected the opposite as well.

Bumped it up to two caps before bed and on 5 days / off 2 days

No huge difference to be honest.
Libido is good but that's about it.

 

[Peppers]

How long have you been using it?

I'm sure Brundel can explain it a bit more when he see"s the thread.

 

[horizons]

How long have you been using it?

I'm sure Brundel can explain it a bit more when he see"s the thread.

A few weeks now

 

[brundel]

Yeah lethargy is strong on viron. I dose it before bed now

Lethargy? That would be a unique response to Tongkat or boron.
2 caps is 500mg of a strong tongkat extract.
Maybe your blood pressure is dropping?
I dont think using more is gonna make it better lol.

 

[brundel]

I don't believe I've noticed anything from it yet.

I dont "feel" anything at all from the Boron.
The tongkat I really feel but its because it reduces the effects of my beta blockers.

Some people get a racy stim feeling from tongkat, some not.
The real benefits are from the increase in Free testosterone which you wont feel per se.
Libido increase would be the only indicator but even this is dependent on many other factors.

My point is its still working if you dont feel it.
The benefit will be added anabolic potential.

 

[Peppers]

If you guys are interested I'll post recent labs along with new labs in 30 days with the layout of the supps used.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I dont "feel" anything at all from the Boron.
The tongkat I really feel but its because it reduces the effects of my beta blockers.

Some people get a racy stim feeling from tongkat, some not.
The real benefits are from the increase in Free testosterone which you wont feel per se.
Libido increase would be the only indicator but even this is dependent on many other factors.

My point is its still working if you dont feel it.
The benefit will be added anabolic potential.

I'm on a beta blocker too but only 5mg bisoprolol now which I probably don't even need anymore. I'll be having labs done soon so it'll be interesting to see test and free test from the formeron and Viron.

 

[brundel]

I'm on a beta blocker too but only 5mg bisoprolol now which I probably don't even need anymore. I'll be having labs done soon so it'll be interesting to see test and free test from the formeron and Viron.

Im on a relatively high dose.
my heart POUNDS when I take tongkat.

Ive seen Formeron alone crank up free T. The combo should be interesting

 

[GreenMachineX]

Im on a relatively high dose.
my heart POUNDS when I take tongkat.

Ive seen Formeron alone crank up free T. The combo should be interesting

Right on.

 

[horizons]

Lethargy? That would be a unique response to Tongkat or boron.
2 caps is 500mg of a strong tongkat extract.
Maybe your blood pressure is dropping?
I dont think using more is gonna make it better lol.

I was on 1 cap for the first week and I still got the lethargy

My blood pressure could definitely be dropping while taking it.

 

[brundel]

I was on 1 cap for the first week and I still got the lethargy

My blood pressure could definitely be dropping while taking it.

I take blood pressure meds and they just ruin me.
Can only take at night or im on the couch all day.
Not sure if other things that lower bp also cause this but i believe they could at least. For sure a double dose isnt better.
Try a daytime dose with a stim like caffeine. Just to see if it makes a diff with some vasoconstriction.

Dont know if itll make a diff or not.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I take blood pressure meds and they just ruin me.Can only take at night or im on the couch all day.Not sure if other things that lower bp also cause this but i believe they could at least. For sure a double dose isnt better.Try a daytime dose with a stim like caffeine. Just to see if it makes a diff with some vasoconstriction.Dont know if itll make a diff or not.

You said you're on b-blockers, which are known to cause mild CNS sedation. This does not apply to the vast majority of anti-hypertensives.Furthermore, caffeine acts chiefly as a peripheral vasodilator, not a vasoconstrictor. Even furthermore, beta blockers have either no effect on vasculature or they vasoconstrict it. The BP lowering effect is systolic

 

[brundel]

While I know there are people who say its a vasodilator in my experience blood pressure rises and int known to cause a rise in blood pressure along with vasoconstriction. Tons of studies support it being a vasoconstrictor, and even more to support it raising blood pressure which was the whole point.

Caffeine acutely increases blood pressure and peripheral vascular resistance, in part because of sympathetic stimulation. Its effects on large artery properties are largely unknown. In a double-blind crossover study, 7 healthy subjects 26±2.6 years of age (mean±SEM) were studied for 90 minutes while in the supine position on 2 occasions separated by a week in random order after ingestion of 250 mL caffeinated (150 mg) and decaffeinated (<2 mg) coffee. Compared with baseline, arterial stiffness measured by carotid femoral pulse wave velocity increased progressively from 7.2±0.41 to 8.0±0.6 m/s (P<0.05) at 90 minutes after caffeine intake, an effect that may be independent of changes in blood pressure. In addition, arterial wave reflection, measured by applanation tonometry from the aortic pressure waveform, also increased from −5.7±7.6% to 5.28%±5.6 (P<0.01). No such changes were seen with decaffeinated coffee

Caffeine is a commonly used neurostimulant that also produces cerebral vasoconstriction by antagonizing adenosine receptors. Chronic caffeine use results in an adaptation of the vascular adenosine receptor system presumably to compensate for the vasoconstrictive effects of caffeine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19219847

In addition it depends on the beta blocker in use as some of the newer ones are also vasodilators and DO have an effect on vasculature.
Trust me I know because Ive eaten many of them. Now I know many dont promote vasodilation but just because you think your always right here is proof your not.

"Nebivolol is a cardioselective β(1)-adrenoceptor antagonist that promotes vasodilation":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20214719



My beta blockers dont make me tired. My ace inhibitor does again...which I take at night.
Beta blockers are taken in the morning and at night.

Its funny....because again you literally never have anything to say except conflicting information just to be conflicting.
He isnt on beta blockers so....its a moot point.
Caffeine WILL almost certainly raise BP although in some cases it doesnt. Most people...it does.


You should write a paper on how people with high blood pressure should take caffeine because its a vasodilator and cant raise blood pressure. Let me know how it turns out.

 

[mr.cooper69]

You win brundel. Really bro, you win.

 

[throneof]

So tongkat elevates BP?

 

[packers6211]

Where is this located lol I have no idea why but I haven't even heard of this yet.

The label doesn't say much other than take 1 daily; is that all you guys take? Does it matter when you take it, e.g. preworkout, pre-bed, etc? Thanks.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Where is this located lol I have no idea why but I haven't even heard of this yet.

Tgb supplements

 

[brundel]

So tongkat elevates BP?

Unless your on beta blockers it should lower it or....this would be most likely.

 

[brundel]

Where is this located lol I have no idea why but I haven't even heard of this yet.

We are going to ship to other retailers shortly.

 

[Jiigzz]

We are going to ship to other retailers shortly.

Any idea when NP will pick up some?

I'm in NZ and NP shipping is ridiculously cheap.

 

[brundel]

Any idea when NP will pick up some?

I'm in NZ and NP shipping is ridiculously cheap.

NZ will also have stock
You can PM me if needed.
Or NP will have stock sometime next week.

 

[throneof]

Unless your on beta blockers it should lower it or....this would be most likely.

I take celery seed extract and hawthorne extract everyday for BP. They both have the similar mechanisms to calcium channel blockers. If I took Viron, do you think I would see BP elevation? I do not take pharmaceutical BP meds.