How much vitamin C is too much?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    No real evidence to suggest mega-dosing actually works beyond that of placebo, although it isn't well researched so who knows; but at those dosages, the half life would be incredible low.

    Edit: It seems as though the ascorbyl radical itself (technically a prooxidant) is not overly potent due to the position of the free radical group

    I think many people get carried away with Vit C supplementation and assume that because it is so good at lower dosages; it must be better at higher dosages.

    Vit C also doesn't preserve eNO2 per se, that is a function of any antioxidant; not just that of Vit C.
    I believe there is s mouse study showing mega dosing vitamin c to be anti tumor. Another study showing mega dosing to be relatively safe. I haven't seen any studies showing mega dosing c to be of zero benefit so maybe its still up in the air.

    I'm a big follower of Linus Pauling who I believe was way ahead of his time.

    Anecdotally I can say when I feel a cold coming on while maintaining at 1g a day and I bump up to 4 to 8g, that cold is gone almost immediately every time.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    Low half life which is why when mega dosing its recommended to divide over 4 to 8 doses a day. Even during maintenance I don't take over 500mg at a time.

    There is a ton of evidence showing vitamin c to be anti bacterial, anti viral, promoting immune function, even necessary in the development of t cells.

    I don't know how anyone can say immune benefits from vitamin c are placebo.
    I didn't say they were placebo, what I meant was that there is very limited evidence that superdosing vit C will yield any further benefits than 200mg-500mg-1000mg or whatever the recommendation is. Those benefits occur at the daily recommended dose regardless, that doesn't mean the effects are enhanced the more you take. Or are they? lol
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    I believe there is s mouse study showing mega dosing vitamin c to be anti tumor. Another study showing mega dosing to be relatively safe. I haven't seen any studies showing mega dosing c to be of zero benefit so maybe its still up in the air.

    I'm a big follower of Linus Pauling who I believe was way ahead of his time.

    Anecdotally I can say when I feel a cold coming on while maintaining at 1g a day and I bump up to 4 to 8g, that cold is gone almost immediately every time.
    Ann Intern Med. 2004 Apr 6;140(7):533-7.
    Vitamin C pharmacokinetics: implications for oral and intravenous use.
    Padayatty SJ, Sun H, Wang Y, Riordan HD, Hewitt SM, Katz A, Wesley RA, Levine M.
    Source

    National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the National Cancer Institut, and the Clinical Center, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892-1372, USA.
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    Vitamin C at high concentrations is toxic to cancer cells in vitro. Early clinical studies of vitamin C in patients with terminal cancer suggested clinical benefit, but 2 double-blind, placebo-controlled trials showed none. However, these studies used different routes of administration.
    OBJECTIVE:

    To determine whether plasma vitamin C concentrations vary substantially with the route of administration.
    DESIGN:

    Dose concentration studies and pharmacokinetic modeling.
    SETTING:

    Academic medical center.
    PARTICIPANTS:

    17 healthy hospitalized volunteers.
    MEASUREMENTS:

    Vitamin C plasma and urine concentrations were measured after administration of oral and intravenous doses at a dose range of 0.015 to 1.25 g, and plasma concentrations were calculated for a dose range of 1 to 100 g.
    RESULTS:

    Peak plasma vitamin C concentrations were higher after administration of intravenous doses than after administration of oral doses (P < 0.001), and the difference increased according to dose. Vitamin C at a dose of 1.25 g administered orally produced mean (+/-sd) peak plasma concentrations of 134.8 +/- 20.6 micromol/L compared with 885 +/- 201.2 micromol/L for intravenous administration. For the maximum tolerated oral dose of 3 g every 4 hours, pharmacokinetic modeling predicted peak plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 micromol/L and 13 400 micromol/L for a 50-g intravenous dose. Peak predicted urine concentrations of vitamin C from intravenous administration were 140-fold higher than those from maximum oral doses.
    LIMITATIONS:

    Patient data are not available to confirm pharmacokinetic modeling at high doses and in patients with cancer.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Oral vitamin C produces plasma concentrations that are tightly controlled. Only intravenous administration of vitamin C produces high plasma and urine concentrations that might have antitumor activity. Because efficacy of vitamin C treatment cannot be judged from clinical trials that use only oral dosing, the role of vitamin C in cancer treatment should be reevaluated.

    This study?

    I guess it wouldn't matter much anyway, high dosages yield low half-lives and those doses being spaced out (i.e. 500mg-1000mg at any one time) doesn't appear damaging. But I don't know much else about Vit C lol
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    I didn't say they were placebo, what I meant was that there is very limited evidence that superdosing vit C will yield any further benefits than 200mg-500mg. Those benefits occur at the daily recommended dose regardless, that doesn't mean the effects are enhanced the more you take.
    Coop said it was placebo, at least my vit c as hangover cure haha
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    Ann Intern Med. 2004 Apr 6;140(7):533-7.
    Vitamin C pharmacokinetics: implications for oral and intravenous use.
    Padayatty SJ, Sun H, Wang Y, Riordan HD, Hewitt SM, Katz A, Wesley RA, Levine M.
    Source

    National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the National Cancer Institut, and the Clinical Center, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892-1372, USA.
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    Vitamin C at high concentrations is toxic to cancer cells in vitro. Early clinical studies of vitamin C in patients with terminal cancer suggested clinical benefit, but 2 double-blind, placebo-controlled trials showed none. However, these studies used different routes of administration.
    OBJECTIVE:

    To determine whether plasma vitamin C concentrations vary substantially with the route of administration.
    DESIGN:

    Dose concentration studies and pharmacokinetic modeling.
    SETTING:

    Academic medical center.
    PARTICIPANTS:

    17 healthy hospitalized volunteers.
    MEASUREMENTS:

    Vitamin C plasma and urine concentrations were measured after administration of oral and intravenous doses at a dose range of 0.015 to 1.25 g, and plasma concentrations were calculated for a dose range of 1 to 100 g.
    RESULTS:

    Peak plasma vitamin C concentrations were higher after administration of intravenous doses than after administration of oral doses (P < 0.001), and the difference increased according to dose. Vitamin C at a dose of 1.25 g administered orally produced mean (+/-sd) peak plasma concentrations of 134.8 +/- 20.6 micromol/L compared with 885 +/- 201.2 micromol/L for intravenous administration. For the maximum tolerated oral dose of 3 g every 4 hours, pharmacokinetic modeling predicted peak plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 micromol/L and 13 400 micromol/L for a 50-g intravenous dose. Peak predicted urine concentrations of vitamin C from intravenous administration were 140-fold higher than those from maximum oral doses.
    LIMITATIONS:

    Patient data are not available to confirm pharmacokinetic modeling at high doses and in patients with cancer.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Oral vitamin C produces plasma concentrations that are tightly controlled. Only intravenous administration of vitamin C produces high plasma and urine concentrations that might have antitumor activity. Because efficacy of vitamin C treatment cannot be judged from clinical trials that use only oral dosing, the role of vitamin C in cancer treatment should be reevaluated.

    This study?

    I guess it wouldn't matter much anyway, high dosages yield low half-lives and those doses being spaced out (i.e. 500mg-1000mg at any one time) doesn't appear damaging. But I don't know much else about Vit C lol
    Doesnt intravenous administration of just about everything lead to higher plasma concentrations compared to oral?

    Good study. It's basically confirming why I said even when megadosing its necessary to space out dosing.

    I'm not sure if this study is the be all end all in proving oral dosing of C is not anti tumor. Especially when previous studies believed it was. It does prove higher oral dosing leads to slightly higher plasma concentrations which may fight influenza and other viruses, no?
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  6. But I do see your point well taken in the study in that jumping from 1g to 3g oral dose does not raise plasma levels a ton especially when you look at plasma levels of intravenous admin.

    I would like to see more studies done on this though.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    But I do see your point well taken in the study in that jumping from 1g to 3g oral dose does not raise plasma levels a ton especially when you look at plasma levels of intravenous admin.

    I would like to see more studies done on this though.
    I would too

  8. You shouldn't be megadosing any antioxidant, that's a rule that applies to vitamin C too.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    Doesnt intravenous administration of just about everything lead to higher plasma concentrations compared to oral?
    Bioavailability is the % of ingested material that ends up in the bloodstream. So IV is 100% bioavailability...oral will always be equal or lower.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    You shouldn't be megadosing any antioxidant, that's a rule that applies to vitamin C too.
    I have green tea & vitamin E (tocotrienols) ED already so I tend to agree with you there

    Too much of a good thing

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    You shouldn't be megadosing any antioxidant, that's a rule that applies to vitamin C too.
    I never said to megadose on a regular basis.

    I have found that bumping the dose up from 1g to 6-8g for anti viral / immune boosting purposes for 1 to 3 days seems beneficial and rather side effect free.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Bioavailability is the % of ingested material that ends up in the bloodstream. So IV is 100% bioavailability...oral will always be equal or lower.
    It was a rhetorical question lol.

  13. It's funny, I hear to avoid Vitamin C peri-workout because the antioxidant action could blunt the hypertrophy response.

    What if I mega dose Vitamin C post workout, so it goes pro-oxidant and supercharges hypertrophy?

    Keanu Reeves meme

  14. I'm making general statements clem lol, a lot of people actually don't know that

  15. So even supplementing with 250mg of vitamin C ED could be too much

  16. Interested in finding the best dose to help with reducing chronic inflammation. Sounds like 500mg am, 500mg post workout, 500mg after that?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    Interested in finding the best dose to help with reducing chronic inflammation. Sounds like 500mg am, 500mg post workout, 500mg after that?
    Ched, come on dude, you gotta at least read page 1/2 of the thread

    But no, vitamin C won't aid with chronic inflammation in the sense you want it to, unless you have endothelial dysfunction

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Ched, come on dude, you gotta at least read page 1/2 of the thread

    But no, vitamin C won't aid with chronic inflammation in the sense you want it to, unless you have endothelial dysfunction
    I actually read the whole damn thing!! I swear

  19. Been doing 500mg upon rising, 1000mg post workout, and 500mg with last meal of day for two months now...

    I read in amino iv write up that anti oxidants can actually reduce adaptations to weight training..
    So does my C Intake fall into this category?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    Been doing 500mg upon rising, 1000mg post workout, and 500mg with last meal of day for two months now...

    I read in amino iv write up that anti oxidants can actually reduce adaptations to weight training..
    So does my C Intake fall into this category?
    Ched...I won't answer any more Qs until you prove to me that you've put some effort in on your end. This thread, that you just bumped, has all the answers in it. No, you should not be doing 1000mg postworkout, ever.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Quadzilla99 View Post
    You should dose anything more than 500 mg well away from workouts though. Like maybe take your biggest doses upon waking or before going to bed
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Agreed. Anything with COX-2 inhibiting properties (anti-inflammatories typically fall in this category) should be dosed ~4 hours peri-workout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    No real evidence to suggest mega-dosing actually works beyond that of placebo, although it isn't well researched so who knows; but at those dosages, the half life would be incredible low.

    Edit: It seems as though the ascorbyl radical itself (technically a prooxidant) is not overly potent due to the position of the free radical group

    I think many people get carried away with Vit C supplementation and assume that because it is so good at lower dosages; it must be better at higher dosages.

    Vit C also doesn't preserve eNO2 per se, that is a function of any antioxidant; not just that of Vit C.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I didn't say they were placebo, what I meant was that there is very limited evidence that superdosing vit C will yield any further benefits than 200mg-500mg-1000mg or whatever the recommendation is. Those benefits occur at the daily recommended dose regardless, that doesn't mean the effects are enhanced the more you take. Or are they? lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Ann Intern Med. 2004 Apr 6;140(7):533-7.
    Vitamin C pharmacokinetics: implications for oral and intravenous use.
    Padayatty SJ, Sun H, Wang Y, Riordan HD, Hewitt SM, Katz A, Wesley RA, Levine M.
    Source

    National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the National Cancer Institut, and the Clinical Center, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892-1372, USA.
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:

    Vitamin C at high concentrations is toxic to cancer cells in vitro. Early clinical studies of vitamin C in patients with terminal cancer suggested clinical benefit, but 2 double-blind, placebo-controlled trials showed none. However, these studies used different routes of administration.
    OBJECTIVE:

    To determine whether plasma vitamin C concentrations vary substantially with the route of administration.
    DESIGN:

    Dose concentration studies and pharmacokinetic modeling.
    SETTING:

    Academic medical center.
    PARTICIPANTS:

    17 healthy hospitalized volunteers.
    MEASUREMENTS:

    Vitamin C plasma and urine concentrations were measured after administration of oral and intravenous doses at a dose range of 0.015 to 1.25 g, and plasma concentrations were calculated for a dose range of 1 to 100 g.
    RESULTS:

    Peak plasma vitamin C concentrations were higher after administration of intravenous doses than after administration of oral doses (P < 0.001), and the difference increased according to dose. Vitamin C at a dose of 1.25 g administered orally produced mean (+/-sd) peak plasma concentrations of 134.8 +/- 20.6 micromol/L compared with 885 +/- 201.2 micromol/L for intravenous administration. For the maximum tolerated oral dose of 3 g every 4 hours, pharmacokinetic modeling predicted peak plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 micromol/L and 13 400 micromol/L for a 50-g intravenous dose. Peak predicted urine concentrations of vitamin C from intravenous administration were 140-fold higher than those from maximum oral doses.
    LIMITATIONS:

    Patient data are not available to confirm pharmacokinetic modeling at high doses and in patients with cancer.
    CONCLUSIONS:

    Oral vitamin C produces plasma concentrations that are tightly controlled. Only intravenous administration of vitamin C produces high plasma and urine concentrations that might have antitumor activity. Because efficacy of vitamin C treatment cannot be judged from clinical trials that use only oral dosing, the role of vitamin C in cancer treatment should be reevaluated.

    This study?

    I guess it wouldn't matter much anyway, high dosages yield low half-lives and those doses being spaced out (i.e. 500mg-1000mg at any one time) doesn't appear damaging. But I don't know much else about Vit C lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryancap77 View Post
    Coop said it was placebo, at least my vit c as hangover cure haha
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    You shouldn't be megadosing any antioxidant, that's a rule that applies to vitamin C too.
    This is what I'm talking about ched. These are all posts from this thread.

    I am all for helping out where I can, but when you say you've read this thread multiple times, I don't know whether to believe you or not.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Lutztenways View Post
    It's funny, I hear to avoid Vitamin C peri-workout because the antioxidant action could blunt the hypertrophy response.

    What if I mega dose Vitamin C post workout, so it goes pro-oxidant and supercharges hypertrophy?

    Keanu Reeves meme
    This

    5 | Take Vitamin C
    This water-soluble vitamin cushions the negative effects of free radicals, compounds that are released with hardcore training. Free radicals target tissues such as muscles, weakening them and increasing inflammation and breakdown. When this happens, cortisol levels spike. By providing your body with antioxidants, such as vitamin C, you can help control cortisol. One study showed that a daily dose of 1,000 milligrams (mg) helped weightlifters keep cortisol under control. A good bet is to take 1,000 mg with your posttraining meal, when free radicals are most likely to be present. Don't go to the extreme and take a megadose, though, because new research shows that excessive vitamin C could actually be detrimental.

    From http://www.simplyshredded.com/cortis...scle-mass.html

  23. Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza View Post
    This

    5 | Take Vitamin C
    This water-soluble vitamin cushions the negative effects of free radicals, compounds that are released with hardcore training. Free radicals target tissues such as muscles, weakening them and increasing inflammation and breakdown. When this happens, cortisol levels spike. By providing your body with antioxidants, such as vitamin C, you can help control cortisol. One study showed that a daily dose of 1,000 milligrams (mg) helped weightlifters keep cortisol under control. A good bet is to take 1,000 mg with your posttraining meal, when free radicals are most likely to be present. Don't go to the extreme and take a megadose, though, because new research shows that excessive vitamin C could actually be detrimental.

    From http://www.simplyshredded.com/cortis...scle-mass.html
    This is 100% false. There are now 2 human studies showing 1g vitamin C periworkout hinders recovery and hypertrophy. I literally just cautioned you on choosing your sources wisely. Simplyshredded is not a resource. Peer-reviewed, double-blind studies are. Work with me here.

    "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." I could feed you info for the rest of your life, but you'd be better off learning the proper research techniques yourself.

  24. Points 1, 2, 4, 9, and 10 are also BS in that article FYI

  25. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    This is 100% false. There are now 2 human studies showing 1g vitamin C periworkout hinders recovery and hypertrophy. I literally just cautioned you on choosing your sources wisely. Simplyshredded is not a resource. Peer-reviewed, double-blind studies are.
    Weird bc I've been growing quite appreciably lately over the last two months. Who knows from what.. Probably just the improved nutrition and reduced cardio lol. This is such a mind fck to me. Just when I think I'm doing things right, my whole "plan" gets debunked.

    So peri workout.. Ill remove any C 3-4 hours in both directions....

  26. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Points 1, 2, 4, 9, and 10 are also BS in that article FYI
    Yea, some of it I knew was bogus

  27. I wanted to PM u about the insulin spike from aminos but ur box is full (lucky u)

  28. One thing i recommend with blogs is that you always read the studies they reference.

    I also recommend looking at pharmacokinetic data first then branching out.
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  29. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    One thing i recommend with blogs is that you always read the studies they reference.

    I also recommend looking at pharmacokinetic data first then branching out.
    I've been looking at studies all night now bc this is bugging the sht outta me. I've concluded that nobody fcking knows. Some say to take 1000mg with post workout meal (30-60 minute post training) others say to avoid chronic "mega dosing" all together and yet do not define what that would even be.. I know I've been growing and getting stronger despite taking 1000mg w my post work out meal.. So idk what to believe.

    Also studies showing it improves t levels.

    Also there r studies showing how C blocks the body from improving insulin sensitivity as a result of adaptations from intense exercise... How C blocks the responses in certain proteins that cause the body to become more sensitive to insulin. These studies suggested waiting an hour post workout so the free radicals are able to do what they're supposed to, then u can take the C to clear them out....
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