- 11-27-2012, 06:00 AM
Is it desirable/undesirable to usewith Green tea ( -Epigallocatechin gallate-) as a decarboxylase inhibitor ?
I read this on the net and on this forum :" Co-administration of pyridoxine without
a decarboxylase inhibitor accelerates the extracerebral decarboxylation to such an extent that
it cancels out the effects of levodopa administration, a circumstance that historically caused great confusion"
Inhibit-P by SNS has Mucuna P. (L-dopa) and Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate.
I read also that Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate should not be co-administrated with L-dopa in the same moment (even if Pyridoxal phosphate
is a required cofactor for the metabolization in to Dopamine)
I'm in confusion.
- 11-27-2012, 01:35 PM
The effects are dose-dependent, and peripheral conversion is typically a concern for parkinson's patients using 15-20x the dose of l-dopa found in a serving of inhibit-P. You can use EGCG if you choose, but again, dose-dependency becomes an issue. If you want to achieve the effects of clinical decarboxylase inhibitors administered to PD patients, you would need about 40 caps of your typical highly-concentrated green tea extract. However, 5g of EGCG is a good starting point for mild decarboxylation if you can afford that.
At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry about adding or subtracting anything from Inhibit-P. If prolactin control is your concern, it will do you well.
11-28-2012, 06:42 AM
Your is a good reply and in a way It was expected. But I'd like to understand better.
in a very SIMPLE way:
Decarboxylation is needed to convert L-dopa to dopamine (once passed the blood-brain barrier) and it is metabolized to dopamine by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase.
Vit B6 (pyridoxine)... is a co-factor that AID this process of decarboxylation.
This process enhanced by Vit b6 (pyridoxine) can happens ALSO outside the brain ( peripheral tissues - BAD thing- ).
Green tea (EGCG) or more potent carbidopa can block/reduce this process ONLY outside the brain -GOOD thing-.
in addition : If so much EGCG is needed to exert some effects on decarboxylase inhibition ( at peripheral tissues ), WHY product PROLACTRONE is so proud of the 332mg of Camellia senensis extract added to the Ldopa?
11-28-2012, 09:09 AM
11-28-2012, 04:44 PM
Highlight 1. Ldopa suppresses prolactin.
2. The addition of carbidopa (a decarboxylase inhibitor similar to that which is in Prolactrone) further enhances the prolactin reducing effect.
3. Ldopa acts predominantly through the formation of dopamine in the hypothalamus, but inside the blood-brain barrier which requires the concurrent administration of a decarboxylase inhibitor.
Neurology. 1981 Oct;31(10):1356-9.
Prolactin secretion in Parkinson disease.
Eisler T, Thorner MO, MacLeod RM, Kaiser DL, Calne DB.
We studied the dopaminergic control of lactotroph cells in the anterior pituitary of parkinsonian patients and age-matched normal subjects. The resting levels of prolactin and the TRH-induced rise in prolactin were normal in Parkinson disease. 1. --Levodopa elicited a normal suppression of prolactin concentrations in parkinsonian subjects; the major abnormality to emerge was attenuation of the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) in the parkinsonian patients following administration of Sinemet (levodopa plus carbidopa) or bromocriptine. These findings imply pathology of extrastriatal dopamine systems in Parkinson disease. 2. Since the addition of carbidopa enhanced the suppression of prolactin induced by levodopa, exogenous levodopa probably 3. acts predominantly through the formation of dopamine in the hypothalamus, but inside the blood-brain barrier, rather than as a direct effect of circulating dopamine on the anterior pituitary or areas of the hypothalamus outside the blood-brain barrier.
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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11-29-2012, 11:44 PM
11-29-2012, 11:45 PM
LOW not high doses of EGCG should be used because a small % of EGCG can pass the BBB. Since there is only so much Dopa decarboxylase present to bind to we want to only use enough to prevent metabolism outside the BBB but not so much that the remaining EGCG will pass the BBB and prevent metabolism where we want it.
5 grams is far too great a dose. We want to keep it to under 500mg.
In this study we see that 800mg EGCG orally was 5 times more than was needed for EGCG to work as both a suicidal Dopa decarboxylase inhbitor and also as a COMT inhibitor. This = 160mg. 1 cap of Prolactrone contains 333mg of green tea extract standardized for 50% EGCG or 166mg EGCG.
L-DOPA is the drug of first choice in the treatment of Parkinson's disease. Inhibition of the peripheral clearance of L-DOPA by COMT and dopa decarboxylase increases its entry to the brain and subsequent conversion to dopamine. Our study shows that EGCG potently inhibits the methylation of L-DOPA. The IC50 of 0.2 ÁM is lower than the peak human blood levels of EGCG after taking 800 mg of EGCG (~1 ÁM). EGCG, as a potent COMT inhibitor, a mild irreversible inhibitor of dopa decarboxylase (Bertoldi et al., 2001),
Ref: Discussion - Biology Online
11-29-2012, 11:48 PM
These studies show that it required 600mg daily orally or 300mg IV to reduce prolactin.
Suppression of Lactation:
When the mother chooses not to breast feed or the baby is lost, suppression of lactation may be required. Initially the get engorged, however in the absence of suckling further milk production stops on its own. Firm support to the is
helpful in reducing the discomfort. Manual expression is not very helpful as it promotes further milk secretion. Estrogens in high doses can suppress lactation, however there are side effects and the risk of venous thrombosis, hence
these are not recommended. Bromocryptine, a dopamine agonist, given 2.5 mg twice a day for 14 days can suppress lactation by producing a fall in prolactin levels. This therapy is expensive, has side effects and there may be rebound
lactation once the drug is stopped. FDA no longer approves it. Pyridoxine – Vitamin B6, given 200 mg three times a day for 5-7 days is quite effective in suppressing lactation and the drug has no side effects.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6
Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.
Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.
A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects.
Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone lh - leutenizing hormone - , follicle stimulating hormone FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied
with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of gh - growth hormone (somatropin) - secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5
Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.
Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8
11-29-2012, 11:50 PM
Here we see that even 10mg pyridoxine can reverse the benefits of levodopa. This would be an even lower dose if P5P was used so single digits.
This makes pretty much any argument FOR combining Ldopa and pyridoxine for reducing prolactin worthless.
MECHANISM OF ACTION
Pyridoxine increases levodopa metabolism, decreasing the amount of levodopa available to the central nervous system.
In patients with Parkinson's disease, as little as 10 mg of pyridoxine may reverse the clinical benefits as well as the adverse effects of levodopa. Coadministration of levodopa and carbidopa has minimized the effects of this interaction.
The pharmacologic effects of levodopa may be decreased.
3-Moderate Interaction: Assess the risk to the patient and take action as needed.
Avoid pyridoxine in patients receiving levodopa alone; however, the interaction can be minimized by giving levodopa with carbidopa.
Jameson HD. Pyridoxine for levodopa-induced dystonia. JAMA 1970 Mar 9; .Jameson HD. Pyridoxine for levodopa-induced dystonia. JAMA 1970 Mar 9; 211(10):1700.
Cotzias GC, Papavasiliou PS. Blocking the negative effects of pyridoxine .Cotzias GC, Papavasiliou PS. Blocking the negative effects of pyridoxine on patients receiving levodopa. JAMA 1971 Mar 1;215(9):1504-5.
Yahr MD, Duvoisin RC. Pyridoxine, levodopa, and L-alpha-methyldopa .Yahr MD, Duvoisin RC. Pyridoxine, levodopa, and L-alpha-methyldopa hydrazine regimen in parkinsonism. JAMA 1971 Jun 28;216(13):2141.
Leon AS, Spiegel HE, Thomas G, Abrams WB. Pyridoxine antagonism of .Leon AS, Spiegel HE, Thomas G, Abrams WB. Pyridoxine antagonism of levodopa in parkinsonism. JAMA 1971 Dec 27;218(13):1924-7.
Papavasiliou PS, Cotzias GC, Duby SE, Steck AJ, Fehling C, Bell MA. .Papavasiliou PS, Cotzias GC, Duby SE, Steck AJ, Fehling C, Bell MA. Levodopa in Parkinsonism: potentiation of central effects with a peripheral inhibitor. N Engl J Med 1972 Jan 6;286(1):8-14.
Yahr MD, Duvoisin RC. Pyridoxine and levodopa in the treatment of .Yahr MD, Duvoisin RC. Pyridoxine and levodopa in the treatment of Parkinsonism. JAMA 1972 May 8;220(6):861.
Mars H. Levodopa, carbidopa, and pyridoxine in Parkinson disease. .Mars H. Levodopa, carbidopa, and pyridoxine in Parkinson disease. Metabolic interactions. Arch Neurol 1974 Jun;30(6):444-7.
11-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I always think of that DeNiro movie "Awakenings" when I hear about L-Dopa.
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11-29-2012, 11:52 PM
If you search for Ldopa and drug interactions youll get a bunch but one that youll see alot of is pyridoxine.
11-29-2012, 11:53 PM
11-29-2012, 11:55 PM
Also Prolactrone uses a 99% Ldopa at 166mg per cap or roughly double whats in 1 cap of the competitor. + 166mg EGCG or 333 50% extract.
11-30-2012, 12:39 AM
11-30-2012, 12:41 AM
I was actually comparing it to the 60% Ldopa Inhibit P uses which is inferior.
And pointing out that Per cap Prolactrone has more than 100% more Ldopa.
11-30-2012, 12:44 AM
More l-dopa =/= better.
Higher % extract =/= better.
EGCG underdosed by a factor of 60 (no typo) =/= better.
11-30-2012, 12:52 AM
So we have 99% which is 1% garbage/other
Yours has 40%.
See the difference? 100mg of ours = 99mg 100mg of yours =60mg.
Still having trouble?
IN addition, I would have likely stayed out of it had you not spouted out the Bull(&@# about EGCG knowing full and well that we use it in our product which is also a prolactin inhibitor. So, In the future either 1. know what your saying and use truthful statements. Or 2. Dont intentionally attempt to downgrade our product.
You can leave well enough alone or not. Your call.
11-30-2012, 01:03 AM
In fact, you don't even understand how your own product works. EGCG is a prolactin inhibitor at 166mg? Actually, let me TELL YOU the reason it is supposedly in your product: to act as a decarboxylase inhibitor and increase central dopamine. It is NOT a prolactin inhibitor, unless you believe a single cap of green tea extract (which typically contains 250mg egcg vs your 166mg in this product) will crush prolactin. And it only acts as a decarboxylase inhibitor at around the 5 gram mark (see Ironfist's post).
You came into this thread and broke both of the rules that you just posted btw: you did not post truthful statements and you intentionally downgraded our product, leading to my truthful (but admittedly downgrading) rebuttal. Everything you just said is laughable, so I will do you the courtesy of dropping this until you learn more about your own product and lose the hypocritical attitude.
11-30-2012, 01:07 AM
Actually you may want to take an english class. I said we use EGCG in our product which is a prolactin inhibitor.
Like if I said I use EGGS in a cake which is a baked good. Am I then saying eggs are a baked good?
I know how the product works. I dont care if some guy posted something on the internet about it. Post a research study or it didnt happen.
In addition, clearly you didnt read the research I posted. Too much EGCG is bad. 160mg or so is good.
There is a reason we include it and at a specific amount. I posted studies to back my claims.
11-30-2012, 01:08 AM
And as for "english class," if you want the word "which" to refer to "our product" in the sentence "I said we use EGCG in our product which is a prolactin inhibitor," you need to add a comma after the word "product." You made the same grammatical error in your prior post which is why I misinterpreted it. So yes, go back to English class.
This ends when you want it to.
11-30-2012, 01:18 AM
Also, levodopa is labeled as a drug and sale of it as a dietary supplement is illegal unless used as part of an herbal extract. Since your label only lists pure levodopa without extraction from Mucuna Pruriens, you are breaking the law. Lastly, as someone who knows the cost of raws for green tea extract and l-dopa, you are making an absurd profit margin by pricing prolactrone at almost $40.
I didn't want to go down this road, but as I said earlier, just remember that you're the guy who came into the Inhibit-P thread, not vice versa.
11-30-2012, 01:45 AM
11-30-2012, 01:47 AM
^I'm not sure that preventing the spread of misinformation from a competitor attempting to discredit Inhibit-P in a thread entitled "Inhibit-P by SNS" would qualify as pissing. And since a contest requires more than one party, I'd say this is just solo-pissing .
11-30-2012, 01:48 AM
11-30-2012, 02:19 AM
lots of technical talk going on, just one question towards BLR why is Prolactrone close to 40 bucks for ldopa?
11-30-2012, 06:25 AM
Can't we all just get along guys? 'Tis the season too get the f*ck along, as they say. Something along those lines.
11-30-2012, 11:00 AM
11-30-2012, 11:00 AM
11-30-2012, 04:05 PM
Wait, so does this mean that one should not take any type of mucuna pruriens product at or around the same time with anything with B6 (pyroxidine)? So if I am taking a product that contains mucuna and taking one dose pre-bed, should I avoind taking it with ZMA since ZMA has b6 in it? Referring to BPS Endosurge specifically. I don't want to waste the product.
11-30-2012, 04:18 PM
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