Homemade preworkout vs premade one

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I am not dismissing your anecdotal experience.

    Let me ask you - you are 5'11" tall and 160lbs? That is quite thin even if you are very very lean. In the event that you are very very lean your leptin and other brain/body physiology can casue those symptoms. In the event that you are not very lean than that is very skinny.

    How is your diet? Macros? EFA? When is the last time you over-ate and or ate in surplus (with lots of complex carbs) for extended periods?

    Lots of other factor can produce the symptoms you are experiencing.

    Well im 166 now. But I carb cycle. On my lifting days I consume ~3400 calories (320P,250c,~100f), and on off days its about 1800..But it's a muscular 166 I'm like 7% bf...I usually don't even binge eat on carbs. Only hiccup I can think of w/ diet is that I eat pretty much the same stuff every day. Chicken, Tuna, Egg/Egg Whites, Brown Rice, Oats, Natty PB, almonds..

    Edit: Supps include:
    Protein
    Creapure
    Fish Oil
    GDA/NP (new)
    Non-stim Pwo
    Multi
    Vit C
    B complex

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    How long do you believe you can stay at 7% bodyfat before you start to get some negative feedback? IMHO you should put on some bodyfat and see how you feel. I'm sure that is not what you want to hear. Consider I'm no expert.

    Best of luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    How long do you believe you can stay at 7% bodyfat before you start to get some negative feedback? IMHO you should put on some bodyfat and see how you feel. I'm sure that is not what you want to hear. Consider I'm no expert.

    Best of luck!
    Well, 7% IMO isn't drastically low. I figure its a level that you can hover around year round.. 4% on the other hand is a bit low. Anyway, I honestly don't understand how adding fat would help. And yes, it isn't exactly what I wanted to hear.. But I'm lean bulking atm and can expect to put on a little, but it'll still come off come cut time around January

    edit: I know Leptin levels are positively coorelated to bf% but don't see how it would produce the symptoms I've listed
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23

    Well, 7% IMO isn't drastically low. I figure its a level that you can hover around year round.. 4% on the other hand is a bit low. Anyway, I honestly don't understand how adding fat would help. And yes, it isn't exactly what I wanted to hear.. But I'm lean bulking atm and can expect to put on a little, but it'll still come off come cut time around January

    edit: I know Leptin levels are positively coorelated to bf% but don't see how it would produce the symptoms I've listed
    At 166 pounds 5'11" why are you even cutting?
    You should probably go on a very long lean bulk. There is no point in you only adding a few pounds just to cut it off unless you are gaining serious weight at your size.
    Unless that is, you just want to be small/skinny/cut guy and not strong/big/muscular/attractive guy
    Your choice goal dependent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    At 166 pounds 5'11" why are you even cutting?
    You should probably go on a very long lean bulk. There is no point in you only adding a few pounds just to cut it off unless you are gaining serious weight at your size.
    Unless that is, you just want to be small/skinny/cut guy and not strong/big/muscular/attractive guy
    Your choice goal dependent
    While he didn't ask for advice, I do echo this. The amount of calories you're taking in from your protein will be next to useless once you've reached the optimal intake (which hasn't been proven to be anything more than 1.2-1.4g/kg for even weight training individuals) as you will utilize at best ~10% of the extra calories for energy-needs IIRC.

    But, to each their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    At 166 pounds 5'11" why are you even cutting?
    You should probably go on a very long lean bulk. There is no point in you only adding a few pounds just to cut it off unless you are gaining serious weight at your size.
    Unless that is, you just want to be small/skinny/cut guy and not strong/big/muscular/attractive guy
    Your choice goal dependent
    Not cutting for atleast 2 months. We're getting off track from what the initial conversation was..Well, it diverted from pwo's to adrenal fatigue but I'd like to get some more advice about the adrenal fatigue part.

    I understand im not the ideal weight, but I'm definetly not skinny either..These symptoms began occuring roughly 4 months ago. I've got a dr. appointment tomorrow, and I don't really feel like payin a co-pay to a doctor thats just gonna tell me that adrenal fatigue does not exist. I've always been lighter than usual, but I don't see why now it would become an issue
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23

    Not cutting for atleast 2 months. We're getting off track from what the initial conversation was..Well, it diverted from pwo's to adrenal fatigue but I'd like to get some more advice about the adrenal fatigue part.

    I understand im not the ideal weight, but I'm definetly not skinny either..These symptoms began occuring roughly 4 months ago. I've got a dr. appointment tomorrow, and I don't really feel like payin a co-pay to a doctor thats just gonna tell me that adrenal fatigue does not exist. I've always been lighter than usual, but I don't see why now it would become an issue
    I meant it more in a way of if your lifting really hard and not gaining much weight then switching to a cut and losing ( something) that's going to make you tired/weak. Calories are energy, if your lean bulk to cut is keeping you at a near deficit all the time your not getting enough to keep your body turning properly. That's why bb'ers bulk crazy hard then cut extremely hard in a short period and only hold that through comp then eat after that like a horse.
    My point is maybe your symptoms are not "adrenal fatigue" but just "run down" from training/stimulating/calorie deficient for a long time. Just a thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    I meant it more in a way of if your lifting really hard and not gaining much weight then switching to a cut and losing ( something) that's going to make you tired/weak. Calories are energy, if your lean bulk to cut is keeping you at a near deficit all the time your not getting enough to keep your body turning properly. That's why bb'ers bulk crazy hard then cut extremely hard in a short period and only hold that through comp then eat after that like a horse.
    My point is maybe your symptoms are not "adrenal fatigue" but just "run down" from training/stimulating/calorie deficient for a long time. Just a thought.
    I understand your point, and appreciate your input..So would adjusting daily calories be a good start? I like the idea of carb cycling b/c it minimizes fat gains. If I eat at maintenance on off days (instead of 200cal deficit) and increase my on day cals up to say 3600, that would be sufficient for recovery and prevent me from feeling run down? Oh and also another member mentioned about my protein intake being too high.. Well, I've heard 1g/lb, 1.5g/lb and up to 2g/lb.. Main reason why I err on the high side is because I have a slight carbophobia lol.. I'm getting better as I put down upwards 290g on leg days, but I've been told that I shouldn't worry about eating so many as eating the majority of them around my workout window will prevent de novo lipogensis..Also, I have a little R-ala and SS that I could use for sanity purposes..

    edit:Perhaps I should re-consider the whole carb/calorie cycling thing..I'd like to think a lean bulk is possible by means other than carb cycling.. Just a 300-500 cal surplus each day, regardless of lifting or not? And adjust macro-comp accordingly.?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    edit:Perhaps I should re-consider the whole carb/calorie cycling thing..I'd like to think a lean bulk is possible by means other than carb cycling.. Just a 300-500 cal surplus each day, regardless of lifting or not? And adjust macro-comp accordingly.?
    I was going to harp on this as the end-all-be-all regarding weight gain. If you lift appropriately in the gym, eat appropriately in the kitchen, get ample rest in the bedroom, the gains will come. I personally advertise nothing more than 1g PRO/lbs at most, as that is already more than the studied amount at 1.4g/kg (.7g/lbs). Carbs are where we derive our energy, as are fats and neither should necessarily 'scare' you; however, I understand the phobia.

    The simple response is energy in > energy out; however, protein intakes that exceed our body's needs (read: natty, not on gear as that would warrant a higher protein intake) will not be utilized for energy as carbs and fats would. I started out with 2g/lbs protein, low fat, and moderate carbs when I first started and had to chug down so many shakes; but the reality is that I've made more gains lately with 1g/lbs protein, moderate fat and moderate carbs, as the extra energy from the increased fat/carbs has aided more so than the excess protein ever did (anecdotally).
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    Quote Originally Posted by neddo View Post
    I was going to harp on this as the end-all-be-all regarding weight gain. If you lift appropriately in the gym, eat appropriately in the kitchen, get ample rest in the bedroom, the gains will come. I personally advertise nothing more than 1g PRO/lbs at most, as that is already more than the studied amount at 1.4g/kg (.7g/lbs). Carbs are where we derive our energy, as are fats and neither should necessarily 'scare' you; however, I understand the phobia.

    The simple response is energy in > energy out; however, protein intakes that exceed our body's needs (read: natty, not on gear as that would warrant a higher protein intake) will not be utilized for energy as carbs and fats would. I started out with 2g/lbs protein, low fat, and moderate carbs when I first started and had to chug down so many shakes; but the reality is that I've made more gains lately with 1g/lbs protein, moderate fat and moderate carbs, as the extra energy from the increased fat/carbs has aided more so than the excess protein ever did (anecdotally).
    Thanks for the reply..So regardless of on day or off day, shoot for ~3500 calories (which is about 500 cal surplus), but the only thing that changes is the composition of carbs/fats on lifting/off days? Fat gains will be minimized through proper nutrient timing, sources of these macros, modest surplus of total calories, adequate rest, and some light intensity cardio 2-3x/week...?


    edit: I know this thread has taken several detours but either way it's helpin me get back on track.I'm hopin the food is the culprit and not actual adrenal damage...Thanks in advance.
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    FWIW I found a link on Lyle's forum about a member who's exhibiting similar symptoms as me. Low sex drive, low t, brain fog.. People seem to be pointing to total cals/carbs as well..

    h t t p : / / forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=14215
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    I'm not the biggest fan of McDonald, personally, but again - to each their own.

    Nutrient timing is largely irrelevant; whether you follow IF protocol (daily calories within 8 hour window) and several big meals OR the snacking diet where you have 6+ meals a day -- it will not matter, with regards to body composition.

    I don't alter my caloric intake nor macronutrient breakdown from day to day. Your calories are slightly high for your height/weight, though. I'd start around 3.2k and increase from there as necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neddo View Post
    I'm not the biggest fan of McDonald, personally, but again - to each their own.

    Nutrient timing is largely irrelevant; whether you follow IF protocol (daily calories within 8 hour window) and several big meals OR the snacking diet where you have 6+ meals a day -- it will not matter, with regards to body composition.

    I don't alter my caloric intake nor macronutrient breakdown from day to day. Your calories are slightly high for your height/weight, though. I'd start around 3.2k and increase from there as necessary.

    Okay, thanks for the feedback.. I figured I could get away with 3400-3600 only b/c I've been deficiting ~200 cals on off days. I calc my maintenance to be in the area of 2900 so a 3200/day would be +2100 cals/week surplus. I don't wanna get into how +/- 3500 calories necessarily equates to 1lb of fatloss/muscle gain b/c I'm sure we all know thats not accurate..

    And btw, why would you lower carbs a little bit on off days? Just wondering.. I'm planning on doing 150g carbs on off days, and 250-350g carb on lifting days..Do you think it'd be best to avoid consuming more carbs on heavier/large muscle group days and just stay consistent? I can tell you that after a heavy leg day, I'll eat my pwo carb meal, and 30-45 mins later I'm hungry again lol.
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    You utilize more musculature when doing heavy leg work, as your legs, core, and lower back will take a beating. Just listen to your body. I don't see you basal maintenance being quite that high, but you are also at a very low body fat percentage so it's possible. Everybody is different, so again: listen to your body and alter it as needed through the next month/two.

    You can drop carbs on off days if you want. Calories in per week / calories out per week is the method I look at, so today I'm consuming 600 kcal more than my usual intake today (3.2k) due to ending 600 kcals short yesterday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neddo View Post
    You utilize more musculature when doing heavy leg work, as your legs, core, and lower back will take a beating. Just listen to your body. I don't see you basal maintenance being quite that high, but you are also at a very low body fat percentage so it's possible. Everybody is different, so again: listen to your body and alter it as needed through the next month/two.

    You can drop carbs on off days if you want. Calories in per week / calories out per week is the method I look at, so today I'm consuming 600 kcal more than my usual intake today (3.2k) due to ending 600 kcals short yesterday.
    I remember I used the Katch-McArdle formula for calculating maintenance cals.. I think for activity factor I used either 1.6 or 1.65. Either way I lift 4-5x/week and do a lot of walking to/from campus. Most calculators tell me between 2800-2900 cals maintenance for lifting days, and activity factor of 1.2 for off days.. 3200 cals/day is somewhere between 300-500 cal surplus on my lifting days, however 3200 cals on off days is much more, in the ballpark of 1000 surplus.

    Would a small weekly surplus be comparable to carb cycling in terms of muscle gains/fat loss. I think the whole low carb days is what was the culprit for my "fatigue." I figure as long as I don't drop off day carbs below 100, I should be able to avoid all those symptoms I spoke of 2 pages ago lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Well, 7% IMO isn't drastically low. I figure its a level that you can hover around year round.. 4% on the other hand is a bit low. Anyway, I honestly don't understand how adding fat would help. And yes, it isn't exactly what I wanted to hear.. But I'm lean bulking atm and can expect to put on a little, but it'll still come off come cut time around January

    edit: I know Leptin levels are positively coorelated to bf% but don't see how it would produce the symptoms I've listed
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8002550


    Risks of Low Fat Percentage

    Men who reduce fat below an essential 3 to 5 percent face immune, reproductive and metabolic system dysfunction. The body utilizes fat as its main energy source during rest and low-intensity activities. Therefore, men with low body fat have low energy and may require excess sleep. A man with minimal body fat will often feel cold because body fat contributes to temperature regulation. Loss of body hair is an additional sign that essential body fat has been compromised.

    Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/28...#ixzz29bP9WiSi
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    [QUOTE=David Dunn;3668091


    Risks of Low Fat Percentage

    Men who reduce fat below an essential 3 to 5 percent face immune, reproductive and metabolic system dysfunction. The body utilizes fat as its main energy source during rest and low-intensity activities. Therefore, men with low body fat have low energy and may require excess sleep. A man with minimal body fat will often feel cold because body fat contributes to temperature regulation. Loss of body hair is an additional sign that essential body fat has been compromised.[/QUOTE]



    nice find..But like I said I'm around 7%, and have been around that level for as long as I can remember....The hair part is interesting however as I've noticed pieces coming out in the shower :/ Biotin ftw.
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    What kind of end of week surplus would be ideal for muscle gains/minimization of fat accumulation? 500 surplus for 4 of 7 days, and maintenance for the other 3? Not minimizing carbs this time on the off days. Or a more subtle surplus each day, regardless of lifting or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    nice find..But like I said I'm around 7%, and have been around that level for as long as I can remember....The hair part is interesting however as I've noticed pieces coming out in the shower :/ Biotin ftw.
    Each of us has a body fat set point at which our body finds homeostatic and functions more optimally in regard to physiological function. This may be different for everyone. The further or longer we rest below that set point we risk sides.

    Remember that that 3-5% number is for essential body fat, which is organ health and function. Statistically, you are just above essential body fat, but how much is essential for you may be more than it is for someone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neddo View Post
    GPLC is and of itself is rather expensive as well. You can make your own that will be cheaper of course.ALCAR 2g, Agmatine 1g, Citrulline Malate 7g, Beta Alanine/Creatine 3g/3g (not pertinent to being dosed peri-workout; simply for convenience), GMS 6g; etc.
    That looks pretty good. I like doing this:1g Agmatine9g Cit Malate3g Creatine2g Beta Alanine200mg caffeineThen for flavoring I would either dump in something I enjoy like a crystal light pack or mio. I like doing my own cause I can adjust according to my own needs and what I plan to do that day. However, I find that I become lazy and just end up getting the premade ones, often cause they work well (not as well but well enough). Now I usually do a combo. I'll doing something like Focus XT for my flavoring, nootropics, and caffeine, then I'll add in my cit malate, beta alanine, and agmatine.
    Quote Originally Posted by warbird01 View Post
    This.If you make your own, you can mess around with doses too. Only reason I sometimes buy pre made ones is the convenience.
    Me too, lazier but so much faster!
    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    I really dont believe that tbh. These things don't just happen.
    Then you need to look into it to gain an understanding of why adrenal fatigue is often a myth and not likely what you're experiencing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    That looks pretty good. I like doing this:1g Agmatine9g Cit Malate3g Creatine2g Beta Alanine200mg caffeineThen for flavoring I would either dump in something I enjoy like a crystal light pack or mio. I like doing my own cause I can adjust according to my own needs and what I plan to do that day. However, I find that I become lazy and just end up getting the premade ones, often cause they work well (not as well but well enough). Now I usually do a combo. I'll doing something like Focus XT for my flavoring, nootropics, and caffeine, then I'll add in my cit malate, beta alanine, and agmatine. Me too, lazier but so much faster! Then you need to look into it to gain an understanding of why adrenal fatigue is often a myth and not likely what you're experiencing.
    I'm goin to the doctor today to talk to them about it but I'm slowly becoming more convinced that it's my food intake being insufficient.. I've been carb cycling and my off days I've been consume -200 below maintenance and +400 above on lifting days.. I think the problem is w/ the off days..I'm consuming <50g carbs and the rest being divided up between protein and fats.. Lifting days I shoot for 250-300 carbs so I don't think that's the cause..I'm going to try upping my off day cals and carbs to maintenance and 100-150 carbs and see where that gets me.. Bottom line, if its not stim adrenal fatigue, than I feel its inadequate nutrition.. The quality of my food is not an issue as its all unprocessed grain, lean protein and mono unsaturated fats..We'll see .
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    1g agmatine
    6-9g citmal (or 4g citrulline)
    2-4g LCLT
    10-20g BCAA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Hey guys I've been takin hemavol as my pwo of choice. I do love it but 40 bucks after shipping every month, in combination with my other supps, is getting expensive. I was wondering if a homemade pwo with agmatine as base pump ingredient would be just as good? Obviously I don't want 5,6,7 ingredients in it. No caffeine. I figured agmatine, Citrulline, GPLC. Or would just taking agmatine pwo be a good idea?
    I like home made

    1g ALCAR
    1g citrulline
    2-4g taurine
    3-5g creatine
    bcaas
    a multiV 1hr before
    DONE!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There is no reason to use cortisone. One cannot induce adrenal fatigue by using basic stims like caffeine, even at megadoses.
    One can not induce adrenal fatigue because the condition "adrenal fatigue" does not exist

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    From another similar thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by muad33b View Post
    I do a homebrew that I love that consists of:

    1) 3 cap fulls of E-pharm Clearshot (so 3/4 of a full serving - unlike Truth, I'm sensitive to stims, I work out at night and this gives me a great clean focus without feeling all cracked out to the point where I need to booze it up when I get to home to sleep) which includes caffeine, DMMA and citrulline malate (I also have some bulk citrulline malate that I use if I need to take a break from stims)
    2) Controlled Labs Green Mag
    3) 1.6g bulk Beta Alanine
    4) 5g bulk AAKG (will be switching to bulk Agmatine when my supply runs out)
    5) 5g bulk Leucine

    And then after mixing all that up, I drop in some:

    6) Prototype Nutrition Effervescent Creatinol-O-Phosphate (COP) - (I can always tell if I forget to put this in, as it affects my endurance/fatigue, work capacity, and ability to reduce rest periods big time)

    And watch it fizz up like a science experiment...
    E-Pharm Nutrition Representative
  26. New Member
    muad33b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    One can not induce adrenal fatigue because the condition "adrenal fatigue" does not exist

    Agreed. If one does the research, it's clearly not a scientific term, but rather a marketing term.
    E-Pharm Nutrition Representative
  

  
 

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