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Good recomp

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    Quote Originally Posted by masonmarin18 View Post
    I am talking about +20% cal of your maintenance calories on workout days -20% on your rest days. If you lift 3x a week that is. You need to carb cycle and take low carb on off days. But you need to be able to count calories, macros, plug them in and use precise numbers until you see what fits. You still need a caloric deficit each week but a small one, with enough cals / carbs to pust on some muscle mass on your training days without the fat.

    This is very tough to do, you need to know your body inside and out.
    This is what im doing now. Works pretty damn well too. Im still trying to adjust my calories on my lifting days but my off days are a perfect deficit of 150-200 kCals. I try to do a +/- 200 kCals depending on the day. Once you get the hang of it, its so worth the hassle of counting macros and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by masonmarin18 View Post
    I am talking about +20% cal of your maintenance calories on workout days -20% on your rest days. If you lift 3x a week that is. You need to carb cycle and take low carb on off days. But you need to be able to count calories, macros, plug them in and use precise numbers until you see what fits. You still need a caloric deficit each week but a small one, with enough cals / carbs to pust on some muscle mass on your training days without the fat.

    This is very tough to do, you need to know your body inside and out.
    This is what I'm doing at the moment, solid advice. The right supps will definitely help you but you absolutely NEED to manipulate your diet to achieve this sort of goal. Personally I like to add in a combo of HIIT and MISS cardio to my training also, I find this helps.
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    OP, post up your diet, from what you've said it sounds like it needs alot of work
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    also the training?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    can you recommend something that allows one to burn fat and gain muscle?
    if in doubt, gain muscle has precedence over losing fat.
    very hard to do, gotta have a solid diet and its a long process.

    1 supplement: Anabeta Elite

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    Quote Originally Posted by drooks10 View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty hard to do, man. If you are looking to gain muscle, then you should look into our products of IGF-2 and Drive. Both of them have some great reviews.

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    I dobut they sell them here in italy. And I was kinda disappointed with Elite.
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    what do you think of alpha t2/lean xtreme + powerfull?
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    or even better, alphamine + Anabolic pump + triazole?
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    Re: Good recomp


    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned any form of fasting. Check out alternate day fasting. You can gain muscle and lose fat and see quick, visible results in the mirror. And u don't need to buy any supplements.
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    I dislike that idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    I dislike that idea.
    Why...it really works and its easily to implement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs
    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned any form of fasting. Check out alternate day fasting. You can gain muscle and lose fat and see quick, visible results in the mirror. And u don't need to buy any supplements.
    I like that strategy I use it. It's fun.
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    how? it recieves a lot of criticism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    how? it recieves a lot of criticism.
    you clearly havnt tried it. if you go into it freaking out about losing muscle then you will give up after a few days. there are some benefits of ADF for building muscle such as a reduction in proteolysis and increased insulin sensitivity. ive actually progressed faster in my lifts by using it. i will eat ~500 calories at the end of the day, tho. and you can pretty much eat anything you want on your eat days.

    and can you please link me to whatever criticism your are referring to?
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    Ican't post links. just going to wp provides examples of criticism...
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    Versa-1 almost every beta-tester experienced recomp to some degree, without trying. The ones that were say a decrease in BF while adding strength & size.

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    wp?

    I fast for 18 hours a day and have never had better results with any previous diets or supplements. People who can't get results are the same who can't control what they eat.
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    that sounds like an eating disorder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    wp?

    I fast for 18 hours a day and have never had better results with any previous diets or supplements. People who can't get results are the same who can't control what they eat.
    Same here. The leanest I've ever been is when I was IF'ing and it was a breeze compared to the six meal a day protocol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    that sounds like an eating disorder.
    You, sir, make a lot of sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    that sounds like an eating disorder.
    beats being fat and having to actually try to loose weight
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    beats being fat and having to actually try to loose weight
    then again, one can be fat and diet. unlike stupidity, which has no cure whatsoever. It does not sound healthy to starve oneself one day (600kcal IS starving) and go wild the other day... it just does not seem good.

    and besides, even if I were to try this fasting business I still need a good appetite-curbing supp. such as Alphamine claims to be. I thought Compound20 would be a good idea but it recieved a very nasty review.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    then again, one can be fat and diet. unlike stupidity, which has no cure whatsoever. It does not sound healthy to starve oneself one day (600kcal IS starving) and go wild the other day... it just does not seem good.

    and besides, even if I were to try this fasting business I still need a good appetite-curbing supp. such as Alphamine claims to be. I thought Compound20 would be a good idea but it recieved a very nasty review.
    Sorry to offend you, maybe I am stupid. I guess fasting really makes no sense. Eating small meals throughout the day is the best way to lose weight so you can raise your metabolism. Wait, no, thats been debunked. And eating small meals all day just means your body is constantly flooded with insulin, the most anabolic hormone in the body... to fat cells. Hmm, wait that sounds like it would give u type 2 diabetes. So lets look at the FACTS:

    -Fasting doesnt lower metabolism till 72 hours into it, same period where the amino acids start to get leached from muscle
    -there is actually a small raise in metabolism from fasting the first 24 hours probably due to the amount of lipolysis occuring
    -the breakdown of protein from muscles decreases from fasting which not only helps preseve muscle, there is a rebound effect that actually helps build muscle when you do eat.
    -it helps lower systemic IGF-1 levles from the liver, without messing with localized IGF-1 in the muscle
    -the number of mitochondria in the muscles increases, boosting endurance and recovery
    -theres been studies about how alternate day fasting can greatly reduce side effects of chemotherapy by strengthening the resistance of healthy cells
    -increased insulin sensitivity, which can really help those who are obese and trying to lose weight and may be suffering from type 2 diabetes
    -and there is no difference in nitrogen retention from 1 meal a day vs many meals
    -insulin is anabolic to fat cells, the absence of insulin means growth hormone levels can go up much higher... and what is GH good for? LIPOLYSIS and PRESERVING MUSCLE. what is insulin good for? GAINING FAT and BLOCKING GROWTH HORMONE. yes, yes you need insulin to deliver nutrients to the muscle but theres a time and place for that

    the list goes on and on. so despite it not sounding "healthy" it kicks regular dieting's ass with health benefits. you can go to ergo-log and type in "fasting" theres some good stuff on there as well as the leangains site for intermittant fasting (he posts a sh1t ton of studies) or Brad Pilon's blog (author of eat stop eat). all of them have a lot of studies posted and i probably missed a lot of the main points, so please... go educate yourself before calling me stupid, you clearly couldnt sense my sarcasm in my previous post

    Edit to add: Can someone please define starving on a physiological level. I still dont know what that means but I do get a TONNNNN of questions in person how I stay so lean when I never touch cardio and how I've gotten many other people into such good shape in such a short time period. I got my gf down 40 pounds in 5 months just by moving her eating period to 4 hours at the end of the day. She trains fasted, takes no supplements, doesnt eat for 4 hours after she lifts and will probably hold a woman's powerlifting record sometime soon. Its funny how she got stronger by not eating... and shes not the only one to have these kind of results. But when people ask what the "secret" is they think we are starving ourselves and therefore must be a bad idea... but then they stay fat while we continually get leaner while eating whatever we want. Its just funny that the same people who complain are the ones who make NO progress and stay the same.
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    I love when people bash away without researching the facts.
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    oh fine. if you can tell me of a good protocol I'll do it once I get alphamine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    oh fine. if you can tell me of a good protocol I'll do it once I get alphamine.
    leangains(intermittant fasting) or ADF. both work. depends on your goals and what you are willing to try. if you start slow, you really dont need alphamine. i use psyllium husk. but if you dont eat breakfast, you never have that initial insulin spike and you can go without food longer than u think.
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    I know myself. I need a kickstart in order to curb appetite.

    what I want to do is to lose fat/preserve lean mass (I hope, since I will continue to take protein and BCAA after weight training no matter what -is that forbidden by one of those 2 protocols?), empasizing on lose fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    I know myself. I need a kickstart in order to curb appetite.

    what I want to do is to lose fat/preserve lean mass (I hope, since I will continue to take protein and BCAA after weight training no matter what -is that forbidden by one of those 2 protocols?), empasizing on lose fat.
    Protocol just states for you to be fasted for ~16 hours a day, regardless of when, but the best alternative is to do so skipping breakfast and going from noon to 8 pm eating.

    Do you workout in the morning? I do fasted cardio in the morning, take BCAAs prior and post, but my weight lifting is done in the afteroon, when I consume my biggest amount of food (dinner) right after.
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    Re: Good recomp


    Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    Protocol just states for you to be fasted for ~16 hours a day, regardless of when, but the best alternative is to do so skipping breakfast and going from noon to 8 pm eating.

    Do you workout in the morning? I do fasted cardio in the morning, take BCAAs prior and post, but my weight lifting is done in the afteroon, when I consume my biggest amount of food (dinner) right after.


    BCAAs are converted to glucose and cause a small insulin spike. I'd personally keep them out of any fasted period. Even preworkout I'd stay totally fasted if following intermittent fasting. And I'd tighten the feeding period to 4 hours, it works a lot better. alternate day fasting has been far superior in my experience. You have two distinct periods: fat loss and muscle gain so both become much more efficient. I love fasted training but eating both before and after training allows for a more productive anabolic period. Alternate day fasting gets my vote every time but you only get 7 training days every 2 weeks which some people have a problem with (my gf lifts 6 days a week)
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    BCAAs are converted to glucose and cause a small insulin spike. I'd personally keep them out of any fasted period. Even preworkout I'd stay totally fasted if following intermittent fasting. And I'd tighten the feeding period to 4 hours, it works a lot better. alternate day fasting has been far superior in my experience. You have two distinct periods: fat loss and muscle gain so both become much more efficient. I love fasted training but eating both before and after training allows for a more productive anabolic period. Alternate day fasting gets my vote every time but you only get 7 training days every 2 weeks which some people have a problem with (my gf lifts 6 days a week)
    I for some reason had the BCAAs I believe because of the Lean Gains book if not mistaken? I recall - again, not certain but I thought it was from the book itself - bcaa and yohimbine being the two ones that were recommended by him, the BCAA being for muscle conservation purposes if not mistaken while doing fasted cardio.

    I do have a smaller eating window, just mentioning the "low side" as it was mentioned "at least" 16 hours. I eat from 1 - 7 personally, that is due a lot to my work / workout schedule pretty much.

    I should probably brush up and read the book once again, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.
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    He mentions BCAA's pre workout on his site. I honestly couldnt tell a difference using them vs not using them. I use them during my workouts on ADF since im eating before and after, and not trying to stay fasted. Theres been a lot of debate whether or not BCAA's technically break the fast. I side with the ones who believe it does break the fast, if its going to be turned to glucose/sugar in the blood id rather take 5g of carbs and save the money... or just not take anything at all. You wont burn muscle by not using BCAA's, your body will break down fat for your muscles to burn which is very anti catabolic in itself. But if it makes you feel better, lot of people still make good progress using BCAA's during intermittent fasting and the leangains guy likes him and hes shredded as fuhhhhhk. Its more of a preference thing.

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    I mean BCAA-protein only POST workout, not pre-workout, sorry.
    and I need a more detailed/not so restrictive fasting protocol, because while I do plan to train around 3 times per week (but with a different protocol, a A-B-A-B one) on other days I also expect sometimes to go running.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    I mean BCAA-protein only POST workout, not pre-workout, sorry.
    and I need a more detailed/not so restrictive fasting protocol, because while I do plan to train around 3 times per week (but with a different protocol, a A-B-A-B one) on other days I also expect sometimes to go running.
    I would try the 16/8 protocol first. Like the guys have mentioned its the easiest to implement and you should see results as long as your in a defecit. At the 16 hour mark I would have a protein shake and some nuts, so fairly light and then have a fairly large meal about 18 - 20 hours in then train and then my main meal post workout. This means I'm eating most of my cals around my workout and keeping my hunger at bay.

    Just try it. You'll be surprised how easy it is to adhere to it. Another point worth mentioning is that as one becomes leaner, eating breakfast seems makes people hungrier mid morning than not having breakfast. Something to do with the high levels of cortisol in the morning augmenting the release of insulin.
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    thanks but I need more details about this. all of them in fact. this seems more complicated than I thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    thanks but I need more details about this. all of them in fact. this seems more complicated than I thought.
    http://www.leangains.com/

    Or a PDF called "The Leangains Approach Final", not horribly hard to find.
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    the one that begins with "My name is Martin Berkhan, nutritional counselor, fitness magazine writer and creator of Leangains.Leangains is a unique approach to strength training and nutrition. The diet involves intermittentfasting and strength training in order to reduce fat mass and increase muscle mass. This is performedby switching between phases of overfeeding and underfeeding, as well as carefully manipulating themacronutrient ratio of the diet." ? that's only 14 pages!
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    actually. I'd like someone to list the various protocols of fasting, what are they used for and for how long they can be mantained, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    the one that begins with "My name is Martin Berkhan, nutritional counselor, fitness magazine writer and creator of Leangains.Leangains is a unique approach to strength training and nutrition. The diet involves intermittentfasting and strength training in order to reduce fat mass and increase muscle mass. This is performedby switching between phases of overfeeding and underfeeding, as well as carefully manipulating themacronutrient ratio of the diet." ? that's only 14 pages!
    Yeah, it's the cliff notes version of it but will have all the info you really need.

    Another option is the book Eat, stop, eat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem View Post
    actually. I'd like someone to list the various protocols of fasting, what are they used for and for how long they can be mantained, thanks.
    Well... That's why there are books for it, way too many to summarize with enough details.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html
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