How Much Arginine Pre Workout?

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    How Much Arginine Pre Workout?


    I take 1 scoop bo xplode already. So sknce i have a bottle of 1g l arginine pills how much should i take? Also i dont want a headach lol

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    Ditch the arginine. Acquire Hemavol, SNS Agmatine, or Thermolife C-bol
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Ditch the arginine. Acquire Hemavol, SNS Agmatine, or Thermolife C-bol
    ????

    Profit.
    •   
       

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    I take 5-7 grams or so a day of arginine mainly for cardiovascular support.....but I do feel it affects NO and helps with pumps despite the fact its "not supposed to" anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6 View Post
    I take 5-7 grams or so a day of arginine mainly for cardiovascular support.....but I do feel it affects NO and helps with pumps despite the fact its "not supposed to" anymore.
    There are an unusually large amount of studies showing it doesn't increase in NO, tested using a wide array of methods and populations. It may enhance muscle blood volume, but it does not increase NO, and it is definitely not ergogenic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmazingAJ View Post
    I take 1 scoop bo xplode already. So sknce i have a bottle of 1g l arginine pills how much should i take? Also i dont want a headach lol
    If you already have both products and they work for you, then great! You should use them Unfortunately, nobody knows how much arginine is in NO Xplode so I can't really recommend how much extra to add. You're going to have to experiment a bit and see what works for you without leading to a headache or any other sides. Start with one and see how it goes, but you probably don't want to add more than one or two, depending on your body and how it tolerates the supps.

    After you've gone through what you paid good money for, you may want to try out other NO related products like agmatine. You can read about it here and get it on sale now: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/synth...-agmatine.html

    I hope that helps!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There are an unusually large amount of studies showing it doesn't increase in NO, tested using a wide array of methods and populations. It may enhance muscle blood volume, but it does not increase NO, and it is definitely not ergogenic.
    Yawn. Definitely not? Based on what? And by what mechanism does it increase muscle blood volume if not through NO?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    There are an unusually large amount of studies showing it doesn't increase in NO, tested using a wide array of methods and populations. It may enhance muscle blood volume, but it does not increase NO, and it is definitely not ergogenic.
    I've never been a fan of increasing pumps....it only serves to cause you to stop short of where you'd normally exhaust rep-wise....which is a bad thing if you ask me. I know when I took 6 caps a day of AHv3 along with its delivery system....it seemed something was causing me to get super pumped, and the arginine was about the only thing I was taking that had a reputation for that type effect.... so I attributed it to the delivery system of the AHv3 coupled with the large serving of arginine. Then again it could have been something else I was taking, or just the AHv3 itself. I know tri's were ridiculous, insane pumps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Yawn. Definitely not? Based on what? And by what mechanism does it increase muscle blood volume if not through NO?
    And where have you been mister?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    And where have you been mister?
    Performing post doc research on NO systems in the basal ganglia:P ...and avoiding NO related arguments...mostly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Performing post doc research on NO systems in the basal ganglia:P ...and avoiding NO related arguments...mostly
    Well, this is the first time I made an arginine comment since our last discussion...and look where it landed me!

    Much of the research that examined arginine's effects on NO also examined the ergogenic effects and found none (one study found that it had a negative effect on performance but the design was crap IMO).

    I don't know the mechanism by which it increases blood volume independent of NO, and neither did the authors of the paper, which is very recent. The paper found no change in NO but a significant increase in muscle blood volume. This, plus heavy anecdote, leads me to believe that arginine can give pumps, but that there is only counter-evidence showing it raises NO or increases performance (and before you tear me apart , the statement applies to: a. relevant populations, b. oral doses, c. low oral doses as most individuals use).

    How's the research coming along by the way? I'm still keen on seeing your results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well, this is the last time I made an arginine comment since our last discussion...and look where it landed me!

    .
    we all already know that you are an arginine-hater......oh and a glutamine-hater as well LOL.......that reminds me, I gotta get me some PF glutamine peptides to mix in my 8:1:1 BCAA PWO drink next time I got ultra low cal
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6 View Post
    we all already know that you are an arginine-hater......oh and a glutamine-hater as well LOL.......that reminds me, I gotta get me some PF glutamine peptides to mix in my 8:1:1 BCAA PWO drink next time I got ultra low cal
    Well, in that context, glutamine is worthwhile
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    Thanks all for replies. I wish i knew how much arginine was in no xplode. So u think 3g plus NOcplode would be too much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmazingAJ View Post
    Thanks all for replies. I wish i knew how much arginine was in no xplode. So u think 3g plus NOcplode would be too much?
    One thing is for sure: you won't be taking "too much" arginine orally (unless GI discomfort counts). Headaches are more common to exogenous NO donors (I.e. nitrates) versus regulated endogenous NO precursors (i.e. urea cycle intermediates).
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well, this is the first time I made an arginine comment since our last discussion...and look where it landed me!

    Much of the research that examined arginine's effects on NO also examined the ergogenic effects and found none (one study found that it had a negative effect on performance but the design was crap IMO).

    I don't know the mechanism by which it increases blood volume independent of NO, and neither did the authors of the paper, which is very recent. The paper found no change in NO but a significant increase in muscle blood volume. This, plus heavy anecdote, leads me to believe that arginine can give pumps, but that there is only counter-evidence showing it raises NO or increases performance (and before you tear me apart , the statement applies to: a. relevant populations, b. oral doses, c. low oral doses as most individuals use).

    How's the research coming along by the way? I'm still keen on seeing your results.
    I just like keeping you on your toes If you have the paper or the authors, could you please send it my way. NO is transient as hell so you wouldn't want to directly test for it. I find it hard to believe though that blood volume increases after arginine and eNOS is not involved.

    It's going well, just publishing takes for freaking ever. Two first author papers though related to NO out this year...hopefully. One is sent to Abbott and the other to Pfizer to get their stamps of approval since they were collaborations. Once they're out I can actually talk about it...worse than being in the CIA...way less pay too!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    One thing is for sure: you won't be taking "too much" arginine orally (unless GI discomfort counts). Headaches are more common to exogenous NO donors (I.e. nitrates) versus regulated endogenous NO precursors (i.e. urea cycle intermediates).
    Agreed! (see! it happens!) I wouldn't push 3 honestly, but yeah, you're gonna probably be stuck in the bathroom before you get a headache.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well, in that context, glutamine is worthwhile
    at my age, when your metabolism slows to shyt, and you have to resort to taking in 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800 cals and nothing more regardless of being 190 or 200 or 210 lbs... every bit of leucine and BCAA and even glutamine peptides helps (I hope....)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I just like keeping you on your toes If you have the paper or the authors, could you please send it my way. NO is transient as hell so you wouldn't want to directly test for it. I find it hard to believe though that blood volume increases after arginine and eNOS is not involved.

    It's going well, just publishing takes for freaking ever. Two first author papers though related to NO out this year...hopefully. One is sent to Abbott and the other to Pfizer to get their stamps of approval since they were collaborations. Once they're out I can actually talk about it...worse than being in the CIA...way less pay too!!!
    Nice! Would you mind PMing me an email address or do you have full-text access?

    EDIT: Regardless,

    Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2012 Jan 17. [Epub ahead of print]
    Acute l-arginine supplementation increases muscle blood volume but not strength performance.
    Alvares TS, Conte CA, Paschoalin VM, Silva JT, Meirelles CD, Bhambhani YN, Gomes PS.
    Source
    a Laboratory Crossbridges, Physical Education Postgraduate Program, Gama Filho University, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
    Abstract
    l-Arginine (L-arg) is an amino acid precursor to nitric oxide (NO). Dietary supplements containing L-arg have been marketed with the purpose of increasing vasodilation, thereby elevating blood flow to the exercising muscle and enhancing the metabolic response to exercise. Our goal was to identify the acute effect of L-arg supplementation on biceps strength performance, indicators of NO production (nitrite and nitrate - NOx), and muscle blood volume (Mbv) and oxygenation (Mox) during recovery from 3 sets of resistance exercise. Fifteen males participated in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. After withdrawing resting blood samples, the subjects were supplemented with 6 g of L-arg (ARG) or placebo (PLA). Monitoring of Mbv and Mox with near-infrared spectroscopy began 30 min after supplementation and lasted for 60 min. The exercise protocol (3 sets of 10 maximal voluntary contractions of isokinetic concentric elbow extension at 60s(-1), 2-min rest between sets) was initiated 80 min after supplementation. Blood samples were drawn at 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after supplementation. Repeated measures ANOVA showed that Mbv significantly (p ≤ 0.05) increased in ARG compared with the PLA during the recovery period of each set of resistance exercise. NOx, Mox, peak torque, total work, and set total work were not significantly different between groups. We found that acute L-arg supplementation increases Mbv during recovery from sets of resistance exercise with no increase in strength performance. It is still premature to recommend nutritional supplements containing L-arg as an ergogenic aid to increase muscle strength during resistance training in healthy subjects.
    PMID: 22251130 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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    I was having a conversation about Agmatine dosing earlier today. In past f-ing around (I say that because I didnt exactly run it like a cycle) you gotta dose it pretty high which is above aleksander's recommendations. I also heard the cost for raw materials today which makes keeping a high gram dose crazy expensive. The literary evidence is limited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrganicShadow View Post
    I was having a conversation about Agmatine dosing earlier today. In past f-ing around (I say that because I didnt exactly run it like a cycle) you gotta dose it pretty high which is above aleksander's recommendations. I also heard the cost for raw materials today which makes keeping a high gram dose crazy expensive. The literary evidence is limited.
    Do you mean arginine or agmatine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Performing post doc research on NO systems in the basal ganglia:P ...and avoiding NO related arguments...mostly
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Well, this is the first time I made an arginine comment since our last discussion...and look where it landed me!

    Much of the research that examined arginine's effects on NO also examined the ergogenic effects and found none (one study found that it had a negative effect on performance but the design was crap IMO).

    I don't know the mechanism by which it increases blood volume independent of NO, and neither did the authors of the paper, which is very recent. The paper found no change in NO but a significant increase in muscle blood volume. This, plus heavy anecdote, leads me to believe that arginine can give pumps, but that there is only counter-evidence showing it raises NO or increases performance (and before you tear me apart , the statement applies to: a. relevant populations, b. oral doses, c. low oral doses as most individuals use).

    I think a even better conversation we could gave here is what is the relevance of these pumps for the athlete? Is it an indication that you had a good workout? If so then wouldnt lifting to failure or high reps be optimal? How much is this "pump" linked to growth? Is there evidence that NO is a satellite cell activator? How much of a regulator of the hypertrophy response to exercise is NO (if any)? Or is there even evidence that increased nitric oxide would even cause this "pump" feeling? Does increased NO actually do any good for an athlete? Does elevated levels of NO during exercise really pan out to any noticeable benefits for an athlete?

    Or is it an indirect effect such as, with an increased pump the athlete tends to train harder and have a much better mind-muscle connection which results in increased gains over time due to the more intense workout?

    Or we can discuss other benefits of arginine such as its role in ammonia disposal or its usefulness in wound healing, which both could be quite beneficial for an athlete.

    Just adding a different twist to the debate so that instead of a match to prove who is right we can discuss and all learn some
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Do you mean arginine or agmatine?
    He must mean agmatine.

    For imidazoline signaling, 1g is sufficient. If you want to modulate or elevate peptide hormones, you will need consistent bolus doses of 1g or an acute multiple-gram dose.
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    Ahh damnit.. I was tryna be "peace keeper" and by the time I was done typing everything was already settled..


    Well it was the thought that counted right
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Ahh damnit.. I was tryna be "peace keeper" and by the time I was done typing everything was already settled..


    Well it was the thought that counted right
    I can get things riled up again if you wish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I think a even better conversation we could gave here is what is the relevance of these pumps for the athlete? Is it an indication that you had a good workout? If so then wouldnt lifting to failure or high reps be optimal? How much is this "pump" linked to growth? Is there evidence that NO is a satellite cell activator? How much of a regulator of the hypertrophy response to exercise is NO (if any)? Or is there even evidence that increased nitric oxide would even cause this "pump" feeling? Does increased NO actually do any good for an athlete? Does elevated levels of NO during exercise really pan out to any noticeable benefits for an athlete?

    Or is it an indirect effect such as, with an increased pump the athlete tends to train harder and have a much better mind-muscle connection which results in increased gains over time due to the more intense workout?

    Or we can discuss other benefits of arginine such as its role in ammonia disposal or its usefulness in wound healing, which both could be quite beneficial for an athlete.

    Just adding a different twist to the debate so that instead of a match to prove who is right we can discuss and all learn some
    Generally, supplements that enhance vasoregulatory function also improve performance (see data on citrulline and nitrates), and thus, hypertrophy is an indirect effect.

    Speaking of irrelevant populations, untrained elders may benefit from vasodilators: Pharmacological vasodilation improves the anabolic response of muscle protein synthesis to insulin in elders -- Lee et al. 23 (1): 954.13 -- The FASEB Journal

    As for ammonia disposal, the arginine isn't rate-limiting, but in the presence of L-norvaline (which actually HAMPERS urea production), it may be beneficial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Ahh damnit.. I was tryna be "peace keeper" and by the time I was done typing everything was already settled..


    Well it was the thought that counted right
    Nah. You didn't even have to say anything. I saw you pop up and knew you would want world peace
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    I wish i knew how much was in no xplode
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    Thats why I try to avoid stuff that doesnt tell me exact amounts.
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    Lol ya. I wonder if i can run 1 scoop no xplode and 3g arginine. Should be ok.

    On a semi related note whats the best way to dose Oxy Elite Pro? I tried it one day afew weeks ago before layoff and i did 2 pills plus no xplode. Couldnt sleep lol. But now i have cafeeine free no xplode so should i do 1 oep or 2?
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    Im gonna give you the standard response as it fits: try the low number and taper up to talerance.

    Try NO Xplode + 3g arginine as see how it goes. I'm gonna guess its gonna total to 5-6g.
    As for OEP, take 1 cap then 1 after. Do you lift in the AM or PM?
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    I lift in Am. Wake up at 8 lift at 1030. Would 2g arginine and 1 oep pill be ok?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Do you mean arginine or agmatine?
    Woops, typo. The initial conversation was about Agmatine yes but the post was direct towards arganine. Ive tried HUGE doses of l-arganine and found nothing. The byproduct, agmatine, is more promising.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Nah. You didn't even have to say anything. I saw you pop up and knew you would want world peace
    Oh damn, what kind of rep do I have round here? I need to go off and start some trouble somewhere..
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    I know Arginine has been largely rendered are useless these days but what do you think of its application here?

    BCAAs prevents cardio-induced muscle breakdown
    Small amount of BCAAs and L-arginine prevents cardio-induced muscle breakdown


    A cardio session especially when done after strength training has lots of positive health effects, but even low-intensity cardio exercise breaks down muscle tissue. For strength athletes cardio is a double-edged sword. Researchers at Otsuka Pharmaceutical in Japan think you can make one side of the sword less sharp by taking 2 g BCAAs and 0.5 g arginine.


    High doses of BCAAs reduce muscle breakdown during physical exercise and boost the body's anabolic response. The researchers wanted to know whether lower doses of BCAAs supplemented with a small amount of L-arginine might do the trick as well.
    The Japanese did an experiment with 4 men and 4 women, all of whom were healthy, in their mid-twenties and untrained. The subjects were given breakfast, after which they had to cycle three times for 20 minutes at 50 percent of their maximal intensity. They rested for 5 minutes between each session.
    Ten minutes after starting this anything but intensive workout, the subjects took their amino acids, dissolved in a sports drink. The method of administration gives an indication of the researchers' intentions. Then the researchers repeated the experiment, but gave the subjects a placebo.


    The researchers measured the amount of amino acids that the subjects absorbed and excreted during the workout via a catheter inserted into the leg. The more amino acids released from a leg, the greater the muscle breakdown, the researchers reasoned.
    The tables below show the net effect: the uptake in the leg minus the release. As you can see, the supplement reduced the release of glutamine and alanine.





    The effect was greatest at the end of the workout during the third session. The figures are for phenylalanine. If you look at this amino acid, the mix of BCAAs and L-arginine blocks muscle breakdown almost completely during the third workout.



    The anticatabolic effect of the amino acid-laced sports drink would probably have been greater if the test subjects hadn't drunk it during the workout but beforehand. Higher doses would undoubtedly have had a greater anticatabolic effect.
    The research results suggest a strategy that could well give strength athletes more benefit from doing cardio after their weight training: take a dose of BCAAs and L-arginine before getting on the treadmill.

    Source:

    Int J Sports Med. 2007 Jun;28(6):531-8.



    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Ditch the arginine. Acquire Hemavol, SNS Agmatine, or Thermolife C-bol
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    Could you link me to the study? I can tell this is ergolog simply by the solid methods synopsis but unreasonable extrapolations.
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    I saw the info on MindandMuscle

    From google - this is the best i could come up with:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17497593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I saw the info on MindandMuscle

    From google - this is the best i could come up with:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17497593
    I'll delve into this a bit later, but rest assured that the results had nothing to do with 0.5g of arginine. In fact, the authors did not even cite arginine in the results section of the abstract, and all analyzed markers were done on BCAA-dependent factors.

    Now, I am surprised that a mere 2g of BCAA inhibited muscle proteolysis, but the fact that significant proteolysis was even occurring leads me to believe that the subjects were fasted (no full text access yet so I can't check the methods). If the subjects were indeed fasted, this is nothing new as BCAAs are definitely valuable preworkout for those who train in a "fasted" state.

    Thanks for the link!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Now, I am surprised that a mere 2g of BCAA inhibited muscle proteolysis, but the fact that significant proteolysis was even occurring leads me to believe that the subjects were fasted (no full text access yet so I can't check the methods). If the subjects were indeed fasted, this is nothing new as BCAAs are definitely valuable preworkout for those who train in a "fasted" state.

    Thanks for the link!
    This is also what I initially thought when I read seen it as all aminos (yes even NE-AA) have this capability but from the ergo-log write up they specifically mention the subjects had breakfast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    This is also what I initially thought when I read seen it as all aminos (yes even NE-AA) have this capability but from the ergo-log write up they specifically mention the subjects had breakfast.
    Then I will indeed have to read this full text. Logic dictates that ingestion of any carbohydrate/protein will obviously blunt proteolysis (I need to see the intensity of these 20 min cycling bouts because you'd think they'd be aerobic...), but the extremely low dose is what piques my interest. If you have the full text, I will PM you my email address.
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