Best GDA for High Glycemic Carbohydrates

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    Glad to hear you found a product that works for you.

    At the end of the day, that's ALL that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    And I think you're right, glucose destination is the end result. That's why I really enjoy AP. The data shows activation of GLUT-4 in muscle, and most importantly I can feel it!! Yes I've actually put on muscle and lost fat while using AP. Did I really just say I put on muscle and lost fat at the same time? The only problem for me is it's pricey to use year-round so I use it in the summer....
    PM me your address, if you are interested. I'll make sure you get at least a bottle of Anabolic Pump within the next couple of weeks. Thank you for the support and for spreading the good word!
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    http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab249.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Thanks for the info CLEM

    I recall YEARS ago vanadyl sulfate and vanadium (forget which form was superior) was all the rage. So typical for the old school "proven" supps to get kicked to the curb for newer "better" sexier supps (rolling eyes).

    Similarly, when Chromium Picolinate became popular (80's/90's), soon thereafter, the polynicotinate version was discovered to be vastly superior. Again, not sure why the fall off or lack or appeal these days on supps that have stood the test of time.

    PS: Recompadrol has vanadium in it for those who still love their GDAs. While I still think there may be a place for these, Im just not sure exactly where or what the most efficasious application would be since we still don't know the end result/destination of the glucose/storage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    PM me your address, if you are interested. I'll make sure you get at least a bottle of Anabolic Pump within the next couple of weeks. Thank you for the support and for spreading the good word!
    Very generous. Much appreciated!
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    Great find Whacked! VS is definitely beneficial in helping those with blood sugar/insulin issues. I believe it can help prevent diabetes long term. Anything that controls blood sugar and helps insulin do it's job properly can.

    Think about the negative effects of high blood sugar, out of whack insulin and their effects on aging. We see more and more studies coming out that high fat diets and even high levels of dietary cholesterol are not the culprit in heart disease, obesity and overall metablic syndrom (INSULIN RESISTANCE!!). What can cause insulin resistance? High blood sugar! In keeping blood sugar low whether it be through a low carb, low gi diet, or the use of GDA's, you are ultimately keeping your insulin function normal and preventing many of the degenerating diseases that come later in life.
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    This is why the glycermic index is important and when I hear people say "As Long As It Fit's Your Macros" I go absolutely crazy!! The more I play around with my carb intake and watch how certain carbs and amounts effect my body, the more I understand how effective the GI index really is and how it's not just calories in vs. calories out. At least not with me.

    If I have a 100g carb meal from baked potato that elevates my blood sugar to 160 mg/dl and I have a 100g carb meal from oats that elevates my blood sugar to 120 mg/dl, it does not matter that I had 100g carbs, what matters is that the baked potato skyrocketted my blood sugar to 160mg/dl and the oats kept it lower at a reasonable 120 mg/dl.

    In fact, the oats will leave me dryer looking and give me a better pump in the gym while the potato would make me look watery without the same pump. Go figure, same amount of carbs, different blood glucose results, different look to my body and results in the gym.

    Again, there is no cookie cutter layout that works the same for everybody. But this is how my body responds.

    It's similar to complete and incomplete proteins. You can eat 50g of protein from an incomplete source like beans. And you can eat 50g of protein from a complete source like red meat high in amino acids and get two completely different results. One anabolic and one not, even though you ate the same amount of protein.
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    Both posts.......SPOT ON brutha
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    Great thread guys!!!
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    I to have had the same experience using AP as described and evidenced in its write-up. It has been for me the best GDA for a recomp. I'm currently on recompradrol, whilst good it just isn't doing what AP did even with its plethora of ingredients. I'm going back to AP in a couple weeks with MMv3 to lean up for the summer. This combination hardened me up beautifully.

    I have read some research in an article prepared by Derek Charlebois which talked about how Na-Rala when taken with exercise does preferentially dispose the glucose into the muscle cells. Something to do with the inflammation caused by training...I can't remember the details, but if anyone is interested the article is on bodybuilding.com.
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    Derek charlebois has great knowledge on this subject. I'm not sure if you've ever looked at his Cut Diet and the others he wrote up with scivation. All based around keeping blood sugar low. Most effective diet I've ever followed.
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    Yeah I did. I've also followed the CHA diet, whilst good I don't like to watch my carb and fat intakes so closely now. I was having to prepared food at home and take it with me. Now I just try to hit the overall cal figure and not go much beyond 120g carbs a day. My problem with low carbs is that it does leave my constitution weak if that makes sense. I'm not too bad lifting weights, but I just feel weak on day to day basis.
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    So how do you guys feel about dats diet without pwo carbs with out insulin? Basically only ingesting carbs pre workout and obstaining from carbs until before your next resistance workout.
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    I can't think of any GDA that wouldn't do the exact same thing

    The friendly arguments in earlier posts had to do with a non-exercised state.

    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    I have read some research in an article prepared by Derek Charlebois which talked about how Na-Rala when taken with exercise does preferentially dispose the glucose into the muscle cells. Something to do with the inflammation caused by training...I can't remember the details, but if anyone is interested the article is on bodybuilding.com.
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    I've never tried it but it's pretty much the same concept as IM (intermittent Fasting) which is widely popular these days.

    Here's a 2,734,865 page thread on it (lol): The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log


    Quote Originally Posted by sam805 View Post
    So how do you guys feel about dats diet without pwo carbs with out insulin? Basically only ingesting carbs pre workout and obstaining from carbs until before your next resistance workout.
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    Yes I've read up on if and tried it. It wasn't practical for me with working out at 530 and then working physical labor from 8 to 5 with only a 8 hr feeding window. But I can see how the point of both is to keep blood glucose low and insulin at bay for most of the day.
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    IF has worked really well for me. It's been the easiest diet to follow and I dropped below 10% body fat using it with relative ease. The first week is a little tough but after that its is easy. In fact I found myself more productive during the fast especially mentally.
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    Saggy are you following cals or macros? If so what's your breakdowns?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I can't think of any GDA that wouldn't do the exact same thing

    The friendly arguments in earlier posts had to do with a non-exercised state.
    That's a fair point and one I had in mind when I wrote the response. It's just that when you were discussing GDA selectivity or lack thereof the only research that came to mind was regarding Na-KRala, ingested whilst resistance training, referenced by Derek in his article.
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    To be honest when I was following IF was only broadly tracking macros....if you asked my how many calories I was ingesting I couldn't tell you, but I ate pretty much what I wanted in two of the three meals in eight hour window as long as it had 40g or so of protein.
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    Cool thanks saggy
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    Hang on......before anyone jumps on the vanadyl bandwagon, read this:

    http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psycho...ylsulfate.html


    As an aside, there is an excellent explanation of insulin that in a way, invalidates SOME of the theories/uses of ALL GDA's. It's a nice read. Section: "Too Good to be True"

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    I've been meaning to post this but did not want to stir up any more drama. I would never use vanadyl as a healthy individual, personally.
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    I will not either now as well

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I've been meaning to post this but did not want to stir up any more drama. I would never use vanadyl as a healthy individual, personally.
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    http://www.jacn.org/content/17/1/11.full

    vanadium..

    im looking for the one that shows saftey of inorganic vs organisc and absorption rates into vanadium sensitive tissue (kidney and bone).

    basically VS from what ive seen in studies is superior due to lower tox, but still able to exert effects.
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    Dan Duchaine - Body Opus .... Vanadium
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    Got Glycophase ...?


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    Wasnt that like back in 1970

    J/K!

    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Dan Duchaine - Body Opus .... Vanadium
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    Vanadium, like any metal, can potentially be toxic at high levels. In the form of Vanadyl Sulfate it seems to be well tolerated in humans even at up to 300mg per day, while the recommended dose for diabetics I believe is around 100mg daily. In studies some people using this amount reported gastro problems.

    While I wouldn't even recommend 100mg daily for the average person, as I think it's unnecessary, I myself have used 40mg daily for 8 weeks at a time with no problems at all (10mg, 4x daily).

    VS is one of many GDA's, and has been shown to help diabetics significantly with insulin/blood glucose problems, and even has helped lower blood cholesterol levels in numerous studies. I wouldn't completely write it off as it's very effective and shown to be well tolerated in small amounts.

    But again, I'm not here to defend VS. All I'm saying is from what I've read, in small amounts (VS, not VANADIUM) it doesn't seem to be toxic in humans.

    10mg before and 10mg halfway through my 300g carb weekly cheat meal and I wake up lean and dry the next morning.
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    Good stuff SS

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    http://www.jacn.org/content/17/1/11.full

    vanadium..
    im looking for the one that shows saftey of inorganic vs organisc and absorption rates into vanadium sensitive tissue (kidney and bone).

    basically VS from what ive seen in studies is superior due to lower tox, but still able to exert effects.
    Clem: Thats the kinda feedback that means the most! Good stuff!

    Are you a low carb guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    10mg before and 10mg halfway through my 300g carb weekly cheat meal and I wake up lean and dry the next morning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    Dan Duchaine - Body Opus .... Vanadium
    I've had this book sitting in my living room for a year and still haven't gotten a chance to read it. I heard there's some great info in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Good stuff SS



    Clem: Thats the kinda feedback that means the most! Good stuff!

    Are you a low carb guy?
    I've always had a love/hate relationship with carbs. As I'm sure most people do. If I don't have enough carbs I get flat very easily. If I have too many or the wrong carbs I get soft and watery. It's a never ending battle lol. I like to carb cycle, and the amounts depend on if I'm cutting, bulking or maintaining.

    I really love Anabolic Pump. Out of all the carb and GDA experimenting I've done over the years I've found AP the best at actually keeping blood sugar low and helping fill the muscle with glycogen without spillover.

    But in all honestly, with that avi you got I should be asking you what you do. You're shredded!
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    Great book.I wish this dude was still alive to continue to push the envelope the unique, intelligent way with which he did and so successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post
    I've had this book sitting in my living room for a year and still haven't gotten a chance to read it. I heard there's some great info in there.
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    Apparent absorption of 48V-BMOV was greater than that of 48VS. The primary route of elimination was via the feces. On the basis of compartmental analysis of combined data sets (experiments A andB), 75% of48VS and 62% of48V-BMOV were excreted unabsorbed in the feces within 24 h after oral gavage. Although the time frame of this experiment was too short to accurately determine absorption, the model-predicted apparent vanadium absorption was 25% for48VS and 38% for48V-BMOV. These values are most likely a considerable overestimate of vanadium absorption because they are based on estimates from 24-h data sets only. The model-predicted absorption values were adequate to indicate a trend toward greater absorption of 48V-BMOV compared with 48VS, ∼1.5 times greater.
    The bone-to-kidney-to-liver ratios of48V concentrations (in %AD/g) 24 h after oral gavage predicted by the model were 0.3265:0.1163:0.082 for48V-BMOV and 0.1131:0.0856:0.0212 for 48VS (Table1). Thus the proportions of48V taken up by bone, kidney, and liver after 48V-BMOV treatment were ∼3, 1.4, and 4 times, respectively, greater than those after48VS treatment. Averaging the increased uptake into liver, kidney, and bone resulted in a ratio of48V-BMOV to48VS uptake of 2.7. With total tissue weight accounted for, the principal uptakes of48V with use of an oral dose of BMOV vs. that of VS were 0.82 vs. 0.21% in liver, 0.23 vs. 0.17% in kidney, 1.14 vs. 0.67% in muscle, 3.55 vs. 2.73% in blood, and 8.62 vs. 2.99% in bone, on the basis of model-predicted compartmental masses at 24 h after gavage.


    FULL STUDY

    http://jap.physiology.org/content/84/2/569.full
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    been taking Vs since 2004 when I joined here. cant take it in too high doses, makes me run bad and BMOV works much better without the runs. Its kind of like yohimbine hcl and alpha yohimbine the comparison

    our glycobol has BMOv along with many other insulin mimetics including my favorite na-r-ala. so maybe it wasnt the na-r-ala that caused the glucometer test to read parrell with taking real insulin, two glycobols read to where 10 ius read, on the glucometer test. In conclusion, it was all our insulin mimetics that caused the glucometer to
    very much mimetic real insulin-glycobol is strong stuff. Buy it today at am store or www.aisportsnutrition.com
    and feel free to pm me for a code if you buy from our store that gets 30 % off



    In fact im posting all of our insulin mimetics in glycobol

    Sodium R-Lipoate (Na-r-ALA)
    ALA is naturally produced in the body as a mitochondrial enzyme cofactor. It is important to aerobic metabolism. ALA has been shown to increase cellular uptake of glucose to cell membranes by recruiting the glucose transporter GLUT4. ALA improves skeletal muscle glucose transport, resulting in desirable blood glucose disposal and increased muscle glycogen concentrations. (1) Studies also indicate that in muscle, ALA is a potent anti-oxidant which protects cells from oxidative stress-induced insulin resistance. (2) The ALA used in this formula is chemically stabilized and of the highest quality. It’s the most active isomer and the highest potency salt commercially available. ALA is an invaluable addition that offers a multitude of benefits plus countless extras for any serious athlete.
    Bottom Line: Best way to describe this effect is that it almost adds a filter to the muscle fibers; Taking in what it needs to prepare for growth.

    Trigonella Seed isolate (standardized to 10% 4-hydroxyisoleucine)
    Fenugreek has been successfully applied for thousands of years to improve health. It corrects blood sugar problems and improves cholesterol scores. Modern research also shows that it improves endurance and lowers blood lactate concentrations dramatically. Treatment with fenugreek seed can also significantly decreases fat accumulation. These results suggest that this improvement in endurance and reduction in body fat is caused by an increase in the utilization of fatty acids as an energy source. (3) Fenugreek supplements high in 4-HIL have also been demonstrated to increase post-exercise glycogen resynthesis in athletes, which promotes rapid recovery and helps prevent training fatigue. (4) The visible results of this glycogenic effect are big, pumped muscles that look extremely full and vascular.
    Bottom Line: Helps you use fatty acids as an energy source, rather than store them as Fat!
    Phellodendron extract (standardized to 90% berberine)
    Phellodendron is one of the highly valued traditional Chinese herbs, used medicinally to treat a variety of health conditions. It is reported that some subjects show improved strength, lower blood pressure, and lower blood sugar in response to Phellodendron isolates. Laboratory studies suggest that one of these alkaloidal isolates called berberine may accomplish these benefits by enhancing insulin production. (5) There are also many studies that suggest berberine can reduce total serum cholesterol, dangerous LDL-cholesterol, and unhealthy triglycerides, which would obviously contribute greatly to increased athletic performance and good over-all health. (6) Improved health and increased physical performance translates into greater strength and muscle gains in the gym.
    Bottom Line: Increased performance translates into greater strength and muscle gains.
    Cinnamon Bark 20:1 extract (standardized for 16% flavonoids)
    Cinnamon is a common spice used all over the world, but it’s not commonly known that the spice has significant therapeutic value. Cinnamon contains the element chromium, which is needed for proper glucose metabolism, and also compounds called flavonoids. Flavinoids are potent anti-oxidants which are known to provide protection against cancer and heart disease. The specific flavonoids found in cinnamon bark are shown to stimulate glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis similar to insulin. These flavonoids may activate receptors by direct insulin mimicking action, or indirect insulin potentiation, or both. (7) Studies also show that cinnamon improves lipid profiles for some subjects. (8) If you train consistently and have a healthy diet, your big muscular improvements from this powerful little cinnamon extract might surprise you.
    Bottom Line: Insulin is very anabolic, so the insulin boosting action of cinnamon extract will be bigger, stronger muscles.
    Bis(Maltolato)Oxovanadium (BMOV)
    BMOV is an organic form of the mineral vanadium. Although elemental vanadium and inorganic salts of vanadium show significant biological potential, it has a poor therapeutic index due to low gastrointestinal absorbance. BMOV is recognized as safer, more absorbable, and able to deliver a therapeutic effect up to 50% greater than the inorganic forms. (9) Vanadium is one of the rare microelements that can promote a profound boost in endurance and strongly support anabolism. BMOV can give muscles a hardness like you have never experience before. The form of vanadium used in this formula is one of the very best you can find, if not the best.
    Bottom Line: Makes your Muscle harder than ever, increases vascularity!
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    I've had much more stomach stress with BMOV then VS especially in terms of the runs. At 150mg VS I got just a little gas. When I went up to 300 then I had stomach issuesBmov from what I remember 20mg = 50mg VS. BUT more absorption into bone kidney spleen than VS. So yes lower dose more absorption into those tissues and lower dose will cause stomach issuesDon't get me wrong I liked glycobol. But IMO better options. That's not to say that its not a great product because it is.
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    No disrespect intended, but did you even read the posts?

    NO ONE (including Mr Cooper) is disputing the efficacy of these GDA's and what they do. NO ONE

    WE ALL AGREE THAT THEY ASSIST IN CLEARING GLUCOSE OUT OF THE BLOOD (albeit via different mechanisms but the end result is similar)

    The issue is the end result of the MOA and related unvalidated CLAIMS that in an unexercised state, these GDA's will preferentially shuttle carbs into myocytes/muscle cells verses fat cells.

    THAT has been at the epicenter of all arguments for PAGES now. Where is the proof that this glucose is directed exclusively towards muscle cells only. With that, you will also have to provide an argument that these supps ALSO increasing gylcogen storage capacity in muscle cells b/c after all, the glucose HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE (and if it is NOT in liver or fat cells, there's only one choice left). IF I were to chose to be uber objective in my assessment, I would argue that AT BEST, there is an equal distribution of glucose into all 3 (but this is NOT my position).

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smeton View Post
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post326440333

    here are Vt's glucometer results. I recommend you take the time to read this log, you seem well researched like me who has spent literally hours researching many many days for hours at a time since about 2001 on bodybuilding and has been large and in charge for ten years now.

    See below. If GDA's either ACT LIKE linsulin or release more insulin......then the results will be the same AS INSULIN.
    Fat Storage

    Insulin

    Example: When you eat a meal that contains carbohydrates, the presence of glucose, amino acid, or fatty acids in the intestine stimulates the pancreas to secrete a hormone called insulin. Insulin acts on many cells in your body, namely muscle and fat tissue and in the liver as well. Insulin tells the cells to do the following:
    Absorb glucose, fatty acids and amino acids and transport them into fat cells, muscle cells or the liver.
    Stop breaking down glucose, fatty acids and amino acids; glycogen into glucose; fats into fatty acids and glycerol; and proteins into amino acids
    Start building glycogen from glucose; fats (triglycerides) from glycerol and fatty acids; and proteins from amino acids
    The fatty acids are then absorbed from the blood into fat cells, muscle cells and liver cells. In these cells, under stimulation by insulin, fatty acids are made into fat molecules and stored as fat droplets and in adipose tisse.

    It is also possible for fat cells to take up glucose and amino acids, which have been absorbed into the bloodstream after a meal, and convert those into fat molecules.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    I've had much more stomach stress with BMOV then VS especially in terms of the runs. At 150mg VS I got just a little gas. When I went up to 300 then I had stomach issuesBmov from what I remember 20mg = 50mg VS. BUT more absorption into bone kidney spleen than VS. So yes lower dose more absorption into those tissues and lower dose will cause stomach issuesDon't get me wrong I liked glycobol. But IMO better options. That's not to say that its not a great product because it is.
    150 vs gave me super bad stomach distress and runs. even 30 mgs did it-The vs I used was ultimate nutritions 10 mgs9back in 2004 when I played with vs)

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    N


    See below. If GDA's either ACT LIKE linsulin or release more insulin......then the results will be the same AS INSULIN.




    .
    The reason I like to think it does is because the glucometer test on glycobol, which is a powerful insulin mimetic in my opinion; although you might be right. Maybe I misunderstood something somewhere or still have lack of knowledge in this area, and maybe I dont. I am sticking by my guns untill I understand otherwise. One thing is for sure, glycobol works and it works well as an insulin mimetic.
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    dammit i have been making myself fat -___- time for some keto ill save glybol for my bulk
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    Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority.When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis.Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent. These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis.Uptake isn't the issue as it is temporary, when liver and muscle cells are full. And they won't always be full with things like banaba (increased glycogenolysis). So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority.When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis.Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent. These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis.Uptake isn't the issue as it is temporary, when liver and muscle cells are full. And they won't always be full with things like banaba (increased glycogenolysis). So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
    I always enjoy your posts.

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    Sup SS

    1) "Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority" That was way oversimplified IMHO. This this deprends on a wide array of other related variables such as current fed/fasted state, exercised/unexercised state, glycogen storage capacity, genetic predisposition/programming for fat accumulation, k/cal intake, other supplements/drugs being used along with a whole host of other factors.

    2) "Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent." Storage IS temporary (just as it is in the muscles and liver), however, if/when this "energy" is not needed, it will be stored permanently (fat tissue = FAT!); hence the argument.

    3) "These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis" Please provide pubmed or other respectable cites to validate this claim as again, it is not so straight forward; especially IF other complicating criteria as mentioned above are present.

    4) "When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis". Couldn't have said it better myself; hence my point of all of this.

    5) "There is increased burning due to AMPk activation". This is NOT a direct activity of these substances but INDIRECT - it is only true downstream "if" the GDA's were even able to succesfully shuttle the glucose into the myocytes (which will only occur in the proper environment as described above). Then, does such a secondary reaction take place unless you are referring to non-GDA specific substances that are added to some of these blends (which would necessitate a whole new discussion as these are unrelated to this particular topic).

    Again, please also include ingredient-specific reseach/studies because there is a myriad of different substances/agents used in these GDA blends.

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    Uptake into liver and muscle are first priority.When uptake into fat cells happen one of 2 things occur storage or adipogenesis.Storage is temporary. Hyperplasia is permanent. These products reduce fat cell droplet size, and reduce adipogenesis.Uptake isn't the issue as it is temporary, when liver and muscle cells are full. And they won't always be full with things like banaba (increased glycogenolysis). So there is increased uptake. Also. There is increased burning due to AMPk activationAlso PI3k pathway without Akt will increase uptake and block adipogenesis
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
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