Floaters caused by DAA?
- 03-22-2012, 03:52 AM
- 03-22-2012, 06:20 AM
- 03-22-2012, 06:21 AM
I don't know about DAA causing floaters... I guess it would only be possible if it causes additional oxidative stress, and I do not know that it does (nor did I feel anything while on DAA(3+weeks), and I just recently found out that I am very low on antioxidant activity so I would have felt something...)
Floaters in general are caused by oxidative stress. The less antioxidants and sulfur I had in my body, the stronger those floaters would get, and the more I correted that, the less I had(Started to take a LOT of MSM, and that helped. I'm now looking into boosting glutathione through cysteine / NAC but I am not sure if that helps in this case yet. I got improved eyesight so far, though). You might be low in antioxidants in general, so I would look at ways to boost glutathione... see my last post about muslce soreness / regeneration, that might help... and if it does, keep us updated.
03-22-2012, 06:22 AM
03-22-2012, 06:58 AM
Just checked my floaters problem by looking into the blue sky. When it was at it's worst, I could see massive floaters in front of the blue sky.
I've been taking NAC in higher dosages since a week or so for other reasons (proving a hypothesis I had about my antioxidant status) but I did not bother to check about the relatively small amount of floaters that I had left... Well... they are 99,9% gone. Its not surprising, because supplementing with MSM got sulfur in my body that was needed for glutathione synthesis, but taking NAC as a direct precursor of glutathione boosts glutathione way more efficiently, giving much better results to oxidant related problems...
Why don't you try 500mg NAC 3x/day plus 1000-1500mg vitamin c 3x/day(you might want to add baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to decrease acidity, mainly to protect your teeth and avoid heartburn, that would be about 1000-1500mg baking soda, depending on your vit c dosage, maybe a bit more - it tastes salty if it is too much. I always mix it in water and then add some orange juice or similar), and see how your floaters change. Keep in mind though that it may be not a good long term solution though (check wiki side effects reported in animals). Boosting cysteine amongst other things might be a saver long term solution and benefit you in other areas as well.
BTW, mixing baking soda with DAA is great as well to avoid heartburn and protect your teeth if you are using the powder form. I think I add about 1g baking soda to 3g DAA.
Just wondering, do you have other problems such as (chronic)inflammation somewhere in your body, heavy muscle soreness?
Would be great if you keep us informed.
03-22-2012, 08:26 AM
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I thought floaters were from too frequent acid trips...?
03-22-2012, 09:09 AM
There you go:
Mescaline and LSD-25 produced a significant reduction in the glutathione levels and pretreatment with these drugs only aggravated the stress-induced reduction in the glutathione levels of brain and blood.
From:"The effect of some psychopharmacological agents on heat stress-induced changes in the glutathione levels of brain and blood in rats "
Less glutathione, less ability to deal with oxidative stress. If you take into account that cysteine seems to be lacking even in high protein diets (only 2.2g in 100g whey or so) once floaters formed there may be not enough antioxidative activity to repair those, only to prevent further problems... And then there is the question how cysteine interacts with other amino acids in protein, meaning for example tyrosine needs a sulfur donor. So much of the cysteine in a protein source may be needed to deal with interactions of other amino acids and is not available as a glutathione precursor. glutathione gets synthesized by glutamate, glycine and cysteine, but the only amino acid that is not as much available in a normal diet is cysteine, making it the limiting factor in glutathione synthesis amongst other things...
It would be great to have everyone that reads this thread and deals with floaters to give acetylcysteine a try and report back. I added also daa, cissus and celadrin to my supplement list so I can not be a 100% sure that it is the acetylcysteine that caused the floaters to disappear, but its likely.
03-22-2012, 09:22 AM
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I'm probably the #1 "abuser" of DAA on this planet.
About a year ago - I went on it at 6 grams a day.
I've been on that dosing for a year - cycled off for about a month during all that when I ran out of DAA while at sea.
I've never had "floaters" ... I've never had bowel problems ... don't have a problem with estrogen buildup ... I don't have a problem remembering my name or doing basic math problems ...
But it did increase my test levels (both total and free) up and beyond the high limit specifications. This could be a bad thing ... having a total test of 950 ng/ml and free test of 34 ng/ml when you're 50 years old.
Damn that DAA stuff!!
03-22-2012, 09:31 AM
"D-Aspartic acid induced oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunctions in testis of prepubertal rats" (search google)
... which is to be expected for any product that increases testosterone production (the opposite is true for testosterone injections, because less endogenous testosteron production = less stress for the testosterone producing cells). In any case, this would increase the whole bodies need for glutathione. This would mean less overall glutathione, and if one is already at the lower side of glutathione levels, then this might just trigger oxidant related problems that were prior just barely kept at bay.
BTW... it may be an good idea to generally supplement with acetylcysteine to protect the testis from the additional oxidative stress(You could say DAA could contribute to a irreversible testis burnout that eventually happens when you age anyways, just sooner the more the testis work). If I remember it right there was a study on ergo-log that said that the more antioxidants, the higher testosterone output in older men because of less chronic oxidative stress on the testes... The question remains if DAA's oxidative damage on testis was only a side effect from the increased production of testosterone, or the/a reaction of the testis to produce more testosterone, in which case acetylcysteine would make daa less efficient... but in any case, my testis health would be more important to me then a theoretically reduced effect from daa.... You want to use your testis after daa, too.
Which makes me wonder if one wants to increase testosterone anyways, if increasing one's own test production is healthier then exogenous testosterone (as long as the dosage is moderate since after all, no matter what you do endogenous testosterone production will be limited at some level). At least when it comes to testicle health... after all, its only a question of dosage when it comes to side effects, and the duration may be both healthy/unhealthy, but same would be the case for a endogenous testosterone increase.
03-22-2012, 09:34 AM
03-22-2012, 09:39 AM
lol 6g/day? I can tell you I have some bowel problems with daa at 3g, but I am taking lots of other stuff that cause those problems, I am not prone to this kind of side effect but maybe I have reached my own threshold. Do you take all at once in the morning? How are your teeth doing? After all, without sodium bicarbonate its acidic, as long as its being taken in pill form. What else are you taking? just curious because of the high free/total test results.
Do you take supplements to improve your antioxidant status? Might be a good idea to keep the testes healthy...
03-22-2012, 09:50 AM
"The researchers suspect that testes age because they are active. Perhaps the process of testosterone and sperm production leads to the release of free radicals that damage the tissue, they speculate. Whatever mechanism is at work, the testes of steroids users may well be comparable to every second-hand car dealer's dream: one careful lady owner: spent more time in the garage and has hardly ever been used."
03-22-2012, 10:04 AM
"The effects of N-acetylcysteine on testicular damage in experimental testicular ischemia/reperfusion injury."
The most significant increase in the mean TBARS level and decrease in the mean seminiferous tubular diameter, germinal epithelial cell thickness values in bilateral testes were observed in T/D group rather than other groups. TBARS levels of early NAC treatment group were significantly lowered and histological parameters of spermatogenesis were significantly improved in bilateral testes when compared with T and T/D groups.
Our results suggest that the early administration of NAC may have a protective effect in the rat experimental testicular T/D models.
So Acetylcysteine seems to reach the testis, and protect them from damage, probably through glutathione... at least in rats.
03-22-2012, 10:52 AM
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Ironically, started seeing floaters as I was reading this post...
And at first I thought we were going to be talking about poop. Isn't the brain a just superb thing.
Androhard + Andromass Log
03-22-2012, 10:54 AM
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I wouldn't trade my old acid trips for my occasional floaters now.
03-23-2012, 03:52 AM
Can't remember any LSD trip...
Also visual snow since... I can think It's really annoying.
When I read the other texts about boosting test levels and testicles...I lets my think about stopping to use test boosters and maybe try injections some day.
03-23-2012, 03:45 PM
The inflammation might be at least in part caused by low antioxidant status. and the visual snow can come from inflamed optical nerves too.
The inflammation in your joints... what exactly is it that is inflamed? tendons? cartilage (arthritis?)? ...?
Did you ever think to experiment with inhibitory neurotransmitters for your visual snow problem? It might be caused by an over excitement of nerves too. A hint into that direction would be if it gets worse if you use stimulants such as ephedrine, caffeine, drugs such a cocaine etc...(or does it even get better? But I doubt it)
If that's the case, you could try taurine, 5-htp(esp. 5-htp), glycine, to name a few. Also maybe the nerves are not insulated properly, that might be another idea... b12 might help with that, methylcobalamin, 1mg+/day. But I am only generating ideas here, since I do not have this problem and just did a quick search and did some quick brainstorming with what I know about human physiology.
However, with the acetylcysteine+vit c combo you got a real antioxidant bazooka in your hands... experiment with the dosage, and see how your symptoms develop. And keep us posted.
03-23-2012, 09:12 PM
Hopefully my "antioxidant bazooka" arrives soon You would be an hero if it really helps!
03-27-2012, 09:00 PM
Received the delivery today.
NAC/Vit C/Sodium Bicarbonat makes orange juice taste even better
03-27-2012, 09:54 PM
03-27-2012, 11:01 PM
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Might be a dumb question but what is floaters?
03-27-2012, 11:09 PM
03-27-2012, 11:12 PM
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03-28-2012, 12:17 AM
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I'm an Ophthalmic Assistant. highly doubt it. People young and old get floaters. I can't say that I've heard that medications, supplements, etc, could be responsible for floaters. A few "big pharma" meds like immune drugs can cause vision problems, that's because they effect the retina. Certain Meds or supplements could cause dry eyes, which would cause blurred vision. But again never heard of floaters. I'm gonna ask the dr.'s todY, what they think.
03-29-2012, 11:57 AM
Well I speak from experience... I've been taking some supplements that deplete sulfur in the body(like high dose tyrosine... beware people... never use high dose tyrosine without a sulfur source!!!!), and I got massive floaters (in the eye... ). First I noticed them only when looking at the blue sky, later also when looking at other colors...
Sulfur depletion means at least one important thing: gluthatione depletion. Because Glutathione is being build by cysteine, which is a sulfur containing amino acid... the body can produce cysteine itself, but its capacity seems to be limited, at least from a source like MSM...
Once I started with high doses of MSM, it got better. Once I added curcumin into the mix, it got even better (because curcumin forces the body to build more glutathione...) But the final test, which was not planed, was once I used acetylcysteine. about 90% of acetylcysteine gets directly converted to glutathione, and soon after I could hardly notice any floaters. So this means: the more direct the approach to glutathione synthesis was, the fewer the floaters, which pretty much sums it up for me. BTW, acetylcysteine is not directly involved in the sulfur cycle, that means that it would not directly contribute to other functions in the body other then glutathione production in the cells. So my bet is on glutathione for the effects.
So... I don't really care what current medicine says, thats a proven fact to me.
Of course there could be other reasons for floaters, but if sulfur depletion or glutathione deficit is the cause, then this should fix the floaters.
And from what I can tell about the op's problems, glutathione deficit might be at least one problem, so it does not hurt to try...
BTW... how's it going? Don't forget that the inflammation problems could take a while to heal up, even with cissus added. I got some chronic inflammation on tendons that is getting better but sloooww. Tendon metabolism is slower. but at least there is progress now, so eventually it should heal up.
03-30-2012, 01:42 AM
03-30-2012, 04:53 AM
03-30-2012, 05:09 AM
03-30-2012, 05:24 AM
Its a pain in the ass if you have chronic inflammation, and well, you may have to target the problem from a lot of different angles, depending on how stubborn it is. I am currently taking curcumin, celadrin, huge doses of msm, cissus, acetylcysteine, glucosamine, and a tiny bit of chondroitin... and it gets better, but it takes it's time. But as long as there is constant progress I won't complain.
Best example for different working mechanisms of antiinflammatories was curcumin - I had inflammation in my lower back, took it, it went away, but inflammation in my hand didnt change much. So it really depends and you have to go through some trial and error and if you see improvement with one substance, continue taking it and add something else to the list that works in another way.
If you were asking about the floaters... then I am not really sure. They got better after adding msm, curcumin, and a huge improvement after acetylcysteine... maybe a week of it or so, after which I checked. But keep in mind that I am flooding my body with MSM as sulfur source, meaning that I might not need much more acetylcysteine to make it work, because I was "almost there" with the sulfur provided by MSM.
Whats your acetylcystein dosage right now? Whats the dosage of the other stuff you are taking?
03-30-2012, 05:52 AM
Forgot to ask one question: Did you ever check your ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 fatty acids in your diet? You might want to avoid o-6 to a high degree (but not completely) and boost your levels of o-3, a 1:1 ratio would be great. Because a bad o3 to o6 ratio greatly increases inflammation throughout the body, and if that is one of your inflammation causes, you better address it asap. However, it'll take weeks to months until the body reacts to this (I guess depending on how extreme the nutritional changes are, but it will take time).
04-04-2012, 04:19 AM
I was talking about any effects (floaters, visual snow and inflammations). Unfortunately my shoulder pain got much worse the last days, don't know if it has something to do with my current training pause. Today it got better again, so let's just wait and see how it develops.
Since taking NAC I noticed rash on my elbows, also hands and feet began to itch. Strangely I had no problems today.
3x 0,5g NAC
3x 1g Vitamin C
3x 1g Sodium Bicarbonate
3x 1g Cissus (during training pause only 1x)
3x multivitamin (NOW ADAM)
5g Creatine Monohydrate
I will check my exact ratio of the omega fatty acids in the next days. Most of the fat I eat is from mixed nuts, peanut butter, eggs and olive oil.
Btw is it normal that NAC powder is so wet that there will be always a rest of the powder sticking to the spoon after some uses?
04-04-2012, 05:46 AM
Yea thats pretty normal. It is not wet, it only seems to attract water from the air more easily. Did you notice any improvements from Acetylcysteine? Like... less muscle soreness, any improvements in floaters, better regeneration... less inflammation...? The rash could be your bodies answer to acetylcysteine, telling you "I already have enough sulfur". In this case, supplementation with acetylcysteine could have not many additional positive effects, that is, if your body is producing enough glutathione(which it should if you do not see positive effects.). But we are assuming thats because of acetylcysteine, not cissus (You started several supplements at the same time if I remember right so there is no way to tell for sure from what the rash is coming). You could however, reduce acetylcysteine, see if the rash disappears, then start again, and see if you can reproduce the rash, to be sure (just stopping may not be proof enough).
Also, Cissus reduces cortisol, which is the bodies strongest antiinflammatory. That may be responsible for the increase of pain in your shoulder.. that, the inactivity, or both. I felt a similar increase and decrease in pain at the same time (yea thats possible ) when starting cissus... the chronic low pain was getting less, while the sharp pain in certain movements increased at first. But after a while that got better, too. However in my case I did not only use cissus, but also celadrine (it's cheap, and great stuff), curcumin (now halved the dosage, but my inflammation is stable/99% gone), glucosamine, bit of chondroitin and lot's of msm (however that has only a "passive" effect on my inflammation, meaning it disappears faster once it comes up, but seems not to reduce it) and o-3's but a way to low dosage to make it work for inflammation, I think.
Don't forget to reduce your cissus to 800mg 2-3x/day after 2 weeks of loading phase, because too low cortisol is bad for you as well. Everything needs balance... That may reduce the increased pain by itself. I had side effects such as a stiff neck from cissus, as well as headache in the beginning. The headache went away after a few days, the neck stiffness was gone after dosage reduction.
Wiki says: "The vitreous is the transparent, colourless, gelatinous mass that fills the space between the lens of the eye and the retina lining the back of the eye. It is produced by certain retinal cells. It is of rather similar composition to the cornea, but contains very few cells (mostly phagocytes which remove unwanted cellular debris in the visual field, as well as the hyalocytes of Balazs of the surface of the vitreous, which reprocess thehyaluronic acid), no blood vessels, and 98-99% of its volume is water (as opposed to 75% in the cornea) with salts, sugars, vitrosin (a type of collagen), a network of collagen type II fibres with the glycosaminoglycan hyaluronic acid, and also a wide array of proteins in micro amounts. Amazingly, with so little solid matter, it tautly holds the eye."
So I would definitely add glucosamine to the mix (1500mg) because it increases hyaluronic acid production, as well as the production of other glycosaminglycans... And it may improve your joints as well... but it will take weeks/months to start working.
Also, adding collagen might be a improvement as well (and ergo-log reported it reduces wrinkles as well, lol, so it must have an effect after all). I did not test this yet, though. Collagen has a lot of functions so it might be a good addition.
I would also definitely add celadrine (1000mg/day) to the mix, works so great combined with cissus.(in fact, the combination of cissus/celadrine made a big difference, when g/c/m + curcumin alone hit a recovery plateau for me)
I would decrease / stop Acetylcysteine, if it is confirmed that the rash is indeed caused by it and if you feel no improvements in floaters, visual snow, inflammation or muscle soreness etc (but since you already got it at home, I would add it to a pre/post workout shake, for preventing oxidative damage through training it should still work great) However, the good news would be that you could rule out oxidative stress as a problem source. You could give it a chance for a total of 1 month though.
I would also test devil's claw for inflammation, unfortunately I have no experience with this (dosage, how long it takes to work, good products) so maybe someone else can jump in and give some tips.
Also, curcumin would be worth a try, alone, or in combination with other inflammatories. I always recommend longvida curcumin, but other, cheaper forms may work as well for the joints(because only the longvida form crosses the bbb but that would not be important in your case). I found curcumin to help especially in my lower back area and tendons.
And well, boost up o-3's as much as you can while limiting o-6, like I said, but the effects will take probably months(but affect your whole body in a positive way).
04-05-2012, 07:15 AM
^You need to re-evaluate the literature on cissus man. There's not a chance it's causing shoulder pain.
04-05-2012, 08:51 AM
Here are my arguments:
First and most important, those side effects have been reported repeatedly (and always someone said cant be from cissus. lol. yea thats how we do science now, simply neglect everything that we do not like. Seriously? Actually that is quite scary and does not build up confidence in the nutritional supplement industry. Makes me wonder if we indeed need more government control over this industry, even though I really hate this thought.).
Secondly, I have had the same side effects that have been reported. Headache, a stiff neck between the skull and atlas, as well as stiff muscles down the spine.
Third, it might be theoretically possible, even though not included in cissus literature: cissus lowers cortisol(up to 30%?). cortisol and dopamine have an inverse relationship. Thats why l-dopa is being used to reduce cortisol. So that means that someone who already has high dopamine levels, could get even higher ones through a substance that lowers cortisol. Dopamine, as well as epinephrine and norepinephrine are exibitory neurotransmitters, which at least in theory, could make muscles stiffer (opposed to neurotransmitters such as serotonin that are inhibitory neurotransmitters).
And I had the SAME symptoms when I was dosing too high on tyrosine, which is a precursor to dopamine. Now one could argue that it might also be too much of epinephrine or norepinephrine... But the principle would be the same, cissus would still affect neurotransmitters through its effect on cortisol. I did not alter my tyrosine intake in any way while experiencing those side effects on cissus. And they went away once I lowered my dosage (after the 2 week loading phase).
That both to high and too low dopamine levels can cause muscle stiffness should be no surprise, since both can cause anxiety etc. It's all about balance. One side effect from too much dopamine is narrowing of the muscular wall of blood vessels, which is close enough to muscle stiffness in general for me, along the lines of "it might be possible". I have also seen reports about this symptom along with drugs that increase dopamine on the web... I did not find studies, but I checked only for 2 minutes.
Don't forget that the first step towards studies for a certain topics are in many cases, reports, such as mine that require further investigation...
And here is your literature:
Field, T. et al. Cortisol decreases and serotonin and dopamine increase following massage therapy. International Journal of Neuroscience. 2005 Oct;115(10):1397-413. 14 Jan 2010.
There might be more literature, but I am satisfied because I can reproduce the symptoms.
If you have some facts I am not aware of that contradict what I am saying I'd be glad to hear them though. It's never to late to learn something new...
04-06-2012, 02:54 PM
I don't think the increased pain came from cissus as I lowered the dose just one or two days before.
In any case in noticed an strength increase when going from 1x 1g to 3x 1g. But that in my last workouts more than a week ago.
But I have some good news. The pain got better and feels like before taking NAC. Maybe it gets even better the next weeks? Also the rash disappeared. Only some itching left.
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