D Aspartic Acid & Negative side effects
- 03-10-2011, 11:58 PM
- 03-11-2011, 08:03 AM
The amino acid, D-aspartate, exists in the mammalian brain and is an agonist at the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) subtype of ionotropic glutamate receptors.
- 03-11-2011, 08:18 AM
03-11-2011, 08:19 AM
03-11-2011, 08:25 AM
I've run DAA on 3 seperate occasions. I've used bulk from NP & TCF-1. Minimum run was 2 weeks, max was a month. Each time I've noticed the following:
-Better workouts & recovery
-More of an "alpha male" mentality when working out
-sleep wasn't as sound or as good as it normally is
-bloating. I seem to hold water when taking it
-mood is off just a bit
Does it work? I think it does raise "T" levels for me. I do get some acne on my back but I didn't experience any crazy rise in libido though.
03-11-2011, 09:01 AM
Your third citation shows that DAA is an agonist of NMDA, BUT never once shows it to be excitotoxic. Just because something is an agonist, does not make it excitotoxic! DAA is a precursor to the biosynthesis of NMDA, but even that does not mean it will lead to excitoxicity. If any compound in use today has been shown to have excitotoxic properties, it is nitric oxide, but even that is not always the case and the mass amounts of arginine you would need to ingest to actually make this possible across the blood brain barrier make it a moot point.
You're talking about endogenous neurotransmitters in relation to an event like excitotoxicty which requires a unique set of circumstances to occur. The simple act of increasing neurotransmission will not cause excitotoxicity.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to keep you honest because I keep seeing this said with no evidence. So I will repeat my challenge. Can anybody show a single in vivo study where DAA causes excitotoxicity?
03-11-2011, 09:06 AM
03-11-2011, 09:19 AM
All the science leads to what has been stated, being a neuroscientist I would assume you would provide a word of caution given the facts presented. As I have yet to see you provide in vivo studies proving to the contrary I can only assume you have some vested interest, even after the aforementioned statement. In our PM you even agreed with me about DAA converting to N-Methyl-D-Aspartate, but then gave a "Yes, but" that something that is a known excitotoxin is no long an excitotoxin in this instance?!
As a neuroscientiest I would expect you to err on the side of caution. Seems incongruous to your self proclaimed profession.
The Historic PES Legend
03-11-2011, 09:29 AM
This is real easy and let me talk slow so even my "retard" brain can keep up. Can anybody show one single study where DAA causes excitotoxicity?
I'm asking for my own personal knowledge and don't care if the study was performed in humans, rats or trees. Just one!
03-11-2011, 09:34 AM
Ive bben taking 4.5 g a day for 9 days with no sides except some diarhea 2 days. Not noticing strength increases yet. I have anxiety and havent felt different.
03-11-2011, 09:34 AM
The above studies I posted show that DAA is an NMDA agonist itself, is converted to NMDA, and that excesive NMDA stimulation is excitotoxic.. Until some studies are done on humans I will draw my own conclusions based on the available scientific literature..
03-11-2011, 09:39 AM
You have not posted any studies to the contrary and all scientific literature points in the opposite direction so until you produce some safety studies you really have no point.
03-11-2011, 09:40 AM
If I was so far off base you wouldn't get so defensive and begin providing studies to the contrary.
The Historic PES Legend
03-11-2011, 09:56 AM
All these long term sides are scaring me.
03-11-2011, 10:06 AM
I believe that this thread is about exposing potential effects so that users can make their own decision on the benefits/risk.. Honestly, the test boost that has been shown is hardly enough to produce effects beyond what an AI would. AI tests showed test was raised far beyond what DAA does and there are not the same exitotoxic risks involved.
03-11-2011, 10:13 AM
1) I never once said DAA is safe or should be used by anybody
2) I never once said DAA does increase test levels and in fact I have yet to see convincing evdidence that it does (those boar testicle studies do little to convince me)
3) I simply asked if DAA has been shown to cause excitotoxicity because I looked and could not find a single study and thought perhaps you all could point me in the direction of one
4) When answered with studies that did not actually answer my question, I said why they did not and asked again
So everybody have a wonderful day. I need to get back to my imaginary job with my imaginary degree.
03-11-2011, 10:20 AM
I started this thread after the whole NMDA issue was brought up several times in random DAA threads, but were quickly ignored. I myself ignored them till I was set to run a long cycle of DAA and a certain member took the time to explain to possible side effects.
I'm very glad I was made aware of what I could do to myself and that's why I started this thread, so other could be aware. I could care less if some kills their body with supplements, steroids or drugs. It's their body go for it. I just don't want to see anyone use something while they're unaware of the sides....
03-11-2011, 10:27 AM
In the end, it's only going to help increase test levels a bit. I think Bubsnt hit the nail on the head. It's an excitotoxin, which may raise test levels a little bit. I have a feeling that in a few years this substance will be like creatine monohydrate to a lesser degree. Some people love it, some people only get side effects, and some people are 'non-responders'.
03-11-2011, 10:36 AM
03-11-2011, 10:37 AM
I'm looking at a different study, a different dosage, and a different sampling time.
03-11-2011, 10:39 AM
03-11-2011, 10:44 AM
Well I'm not a PhD and I don't have a Masters - don't even have a batchelors.
I'm just a dumb old Visigoth who likes to dead lift and squat - I'm very horny but not too smart. I might have three brain cells that always occupied with either sex, food, or motorcycles.
Here's the deal ...
Can someone explain this stuff in simple idiot's terms?
I looked up "NMDA RECEPTOR" on Wikipedia and the definition there made my head hurt.
So what are the possibilities here? Is it possible that DAA ...
A. Will make me stupider? (I know - prolly impossible but I have to ask)
B. Will make me an angry person ... or an excessively happy one ... or will it make me give my grandkids the "stink eye" and talk about how their generation sucks?
C. Will it turn me homo?
D. Will it make me fantasize about Rosanne Barr?
Basically - what's being alleged here as potential sides?
Anyone out there who can explain this in layman's terms?
03-11-2011, 10:54 AM
I beleive the argument in this thread is geared primarily towards bulk DAA.
You start stacking with other things, and the numbers in the claim start to lose their meaning. You know what I mean.
03-11-2011, 10:58 AM
And a little more complicated but still easy to follow explaination...
Glutamate receptors are excitatory - they literally excite the neurons containing them into electrical and cellular activity. There are 4 main classes of glutamate receptors: the NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor, the quisqualate/AMPA receptor, the kainite receptor, and the AMPA metabotropic receptor. Each of these receptors has a different structure, and has somewhat different effects on the neurons they excite. The NMDA is the most common glutamate receptor in the brain (13). The NMDA, kainite and quisqualate receptors all serve to open ion channels. The NMDA receptor is the most complex, and has more diverse and potentially devastating effects on receiving neurons than the others. When glutamate or aspartate attaches to the NMDA receptor, it triggers a flow of sodium (Na) and calcium (Ca) ions into the neuron, and an outflow of potassium (K). It is this ion exchange that triggers the neuron to "fire" an electric current across its membrane surface, in turn triggering a neurotransmitter release to whatever other neurons the just-fired neuron synaptically contacts. The kainite and AMPA ion channels primarily permit the exchange of Na and K ions, and generally cause briefer and weaker electric currents than NMDA receptors. Thus, when glutamate/aspartate acts through kainite/AMPA receptors, it is weakly excitatory, but when glutamate/aspartate act through NMDA receptors, they are strongly excitatory. (14) NMDA receptor activation is the basis of long-term potentiation, which in turn is the basis for memory consolidation and long-term memory formation. (14) After the neuron has fired, membrane pumps then pump the excess sodium and calcium back outside the neuron. (15) This is necessary to return the neuron to its resting, non-firing state. Neurons in a resting state prefer to keep calcium inside the cell at a level only 1/10,000 of that outside, with sodium levels 1/10 as high as outside the neuron (15) These pumps require ATP energy to function, and if they cannot keep up or if neuronal energy production is low for any reason the pumps may, gradually fail, allowing excessive calcium/sodium build up inside the cell which is disasterous (exitotoxic) (1-3)
03-11-2011, 10:59 AM
03-11-2011, 11:22 AM
03-11-2011, 11:26 AM
This really is a dose-dependency topic and until we have peer-reviewed proof of what an excitotoxic dose is... it's just a crap shoot.
Also, duration makes all the difference. If it's recommended to take DAA at 3g a day for 14 days but it takes 90 days for excitotoxicity to occur at this dose... you get my drift.
****, how much DAA is even bioavailable/excreted after oral ingestion of a 3g dose?
The studies just aren't there for anyone to feel 100% safe taking DAA - but as someone else mentioned a good deal of people take all sorts of narcotics that are known to be harmful.
What if DAA turns out to prevent all forms of brain cancer? No one has any clue at this point.
03-11-2011, 11:34 AM
03-11-2011, 11:38 AM
03-11-2011, 11:40 AM
Where is Pat Arnold?
Furthermore, i think Dr. Dana Houser is doing a self study on DAA at 3gms a day over a 12 month period. Maybe he could chime in??
I've taken DAA with Clomid during pct. worked outwell, but i was also incorporating AI as a down stroke im my pct, so there was overlap. therefore, i can only speculate on DAA effects.
i need to run DAA solo for 14 days, and will post.
03-11-2011, 11:47 AM
03-11-2011, 12:03 PM
This is without a doubt one of the best/informative threads to show up on this site in a long time. Simply awesome...
03-11-2011, 12:03 PM
DAA occurs naturally within the body. If low amounts of the necessary enzyme for natural production exist, this might be a possible outlet for increasing test levels.
The purpose of any supplement is to obtain sufficient amounts of a desired substrate, which cannot be obtained by normal diet.
Look at ZMA. Unless you have a zinc or magnesium deficiency, the results are quite hampered.
03-11-2011, 12:06 PM
03-11-2011, 12:13 PM
03-11-2011, 12:15 PM
03-11-2011, 12:40 PM
If you are injecting test, steroidogenesis (making pregnenolone from cholesterol) starts to shut down. That's why LDL levels tend to go up.
03-11-2011, 12:49 PM
03-11-2011, 01:00 PM
I would go give my input there but don't have time or attention for multiple forums.. There are some obvious problems with their input, as well as, the aspartame studies quoted..
1. Aspartame is %40 L-DAA, given a 165lb person at 75mg/kg that is still only 2/3 of the dose of DAA that people are taking.
2. Aspartame requires metabolism which is a rate limiting step for DAA production. This means that taking equal amounts of DAA and % wise of Aspartame are going to cause far different blood concentrations of DAA. Aspartame will not reach the same blood plasma level that straight DAA does even if you take the equivilant same amount
3. DAA is an NMDA agonist itself
4. Because of the higher blood concentrations of DAA, more is free to convert to NMDA at any given time. Addionally, given the secretion rate of DAA it is possible that you would never reach the blood acumulation level of DAA with Aspartame that you would with DAA supplementation
Comparing Aspartame to DAA is like comparing L-lysine-D-amphetamine to D-amphetamine. It is far easier to reach nerotoxicity with an equivilant dose of D-amphet than with L-lysine-D-amphetamine
03-11-2011, 01:00 PM
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