D Aspartic Acid & Negative side effects

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    Something I posted for our reps- I will put it up here as well:

    Couple quick reads on how the Lit-Up formula minimizes any type of potential side effects from D-Aspartic Acid:

    http://ceu-usa.com/courses/WC001/tes...tion_cycle.htm
    http://hopes.stanford.edu/n3619/drug...ion/folic-acid
    http://www.chronicfatiguetreatments....igue-syndrome/

    This is why some people get depressed or anxious on regular DAA products- DAA activates the NMDA receptor, and NMDA activation, while ok in itself, is not good in excess. When homocysteine begins to build up (it is a by-product in the SAM-e cycle), it can actually cause additional excess activation in the NMDA receptor. This can lead to a lot of the sides you are hearing about from DAA, such as anxiety, depression, and night sweats. However, homocysteine has two routes of disposal- and this is the beauty of the formulation:
    1. It can accumulate and be disposed of in the urine
    2. It can be transformed (re-methylated) into methionine by folic acid, where it can re-enter the SAM-e cycle and be used again.

    As you can see in the articles, Folate, TMG, and B-12, are all substrates that help to increase step 2- and this is why you will see few, if any DAA-related sides from Lit-Up- the product contains agents that re-methylate homocysteine, thus preventing any type of build-up in the tissues and keeping it from overloading the NMDA receptor....
    How would you tout that your product negates all Myelin damage from the NMDA agonist? Considering that currently neural diseases are already on the rise in the previous generations without contributions from such products as DAA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    How would you tout that your product negates all Myelin damage from the NMDA agonist? Considering that currently neural diseases are already on the rise in the previous generations without contributions from such products as DAA.
    I didn't say that- only that it may help minimize some of the DAA-related sides....
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
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    There are quite a few people taking DAA products, my point is to try to advise them on how to do it in a fashion that may help to minimize some of the sides that some individuals enounter
    Dirk Tanis, BA, MSci
    Chief Operating Officer, Applied Nutriceuticals
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    I didn't say that- only that it may help minimize some of the DAA-related sides....
    Ah, sorry.. I misread it as negating instead of minimizing. My fault.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms80 View Post
    There are quite a few people taking DAA products, my point is to try to advise them on how to do it in a fashion that may help to minimize some of the sides that some individuals enounter
    The very small gains don't seem to be worth the possible awful side effects. At least to me.... That's just me tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StakedCop View Post
    The very small gains don't seem to be worth the possible awful side effects. At least to me.... That's just me tho.
    I think it is like anything else- moderation is the key...along with breaks
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    ive taken it for 30 days straight twice and while I did notice a slight libido boost, something like Sustain Alpha definitely blew it out of the water. plus considering the possible prolactin issues etc its not worth it IMO
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    To add to this discussion on DAA

    NOTE: The below copied text is from another thread where the subject of DAA came up and I was given this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity) and that is where I am getting the information (along with a quick google search). NOTE: I am in NO way a research scientist or anything along those lines.. this is just my interpurtation from what I have read. I am not posting this to say I am right or anything as I know I very well may be wrong with my interpetition. I am just adding to the discussion and seeing if someone can help clarify it some more and further elaborate

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Okay so I looked over the article very quickly but this is what I am taking away from it so far..

    The toxicity is coming from N-Methyl-D-Aspartate..

    N-Methyl-D-Aspartate has a pretty great potential to overstimulate the NMDA receptor but it isn't exactly toxic because it is currently present within your body already. The problem seems to be when you have TOO much.. but how much is too much? I dunno

    What the problem is seems to be the influx of calcium ions that are allowed into the cells which produce enzymes that may damage the cells

    Now how is this revelant to DAA?

    Well first DAA breaks down n-Methyl-D-Aspartate via NMDA Synthetase. Also to note the test boost isnt directly a result from DAA but from the n-Methyl-D-Aspartate. So in order for DAA to be effective it needs to convert to the n-Methyl-D-Aspartate which is what is considered to be dangerous in high amounts

    I think the key words here are high amounts.. The questions I would like to ask supplement companies would be

    •First are there any amounts of n-Methyl-D-Aspartate mixed in with your DAA?
    •How much n-Methyl-D-Aspartate can be expected to be produced after taking "X" amount of DAA?

    I would like to see some studies that would show..
    •How much was the calcium influx after taxing "X" amount of DAA?
    •How much calcium influx can occur safely without damaging the cells?


    So the take away is DAA converts to n-Methyl-D-Aspartate which in turn stimulates the test production but too much n-Methyl-D-Aspartate can be toxic.

    Again key word I think is too much because honestly too much of ANYTHING can be toxic. I dont think the focus should be on the fact that DAA is toxic it should be to establish some kind of threshold for it, a level that may be safe. But again EVERYTHING pretty much has the potential to be toxic to the body

    This is what I got from it so far but since I have DAA I think ima hold off and do some more research on the subject and see what turns up. I will post up whatever I find as I find it and let me say this is just MY thoughts based off what I read. I am not a scientist and can be totally wrong and someone more versed in the field can probably answer and explain waaaay more better than me. I would email companies and ask for them to provide the studies they are baseing their products performance off of and then go though them studies for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I dont really feel I am a voice of authority and there are some people who will quickly try and challenge and pick apart something I say for the sake of arguing and I really dont like to be involved in a debate unless I know sufficently enough information to base my opinion and back that opinion up. That is just what I came up with.. dont know if it is correct or not even and I dont really have a strong opinion on pro or anti DAA so definetely wont be able to debate it with someone.

    The questions I would like to see answered would be:

    •What is the ratio of NMDA to DAA that will be produced. Like if I ingest 3g worth of DAA orally how much NMDA could I expect to be converted from that DAA?

    •What is the minimum amount of NMDA needed to stimulate the hypothalamus-pituitary and testis to produce hormones?

    •What is the maximum amount of NMDA that can be present safely?

    •What is the influx of calcium after x amount of DAA orally?

    •And if exercise would effect that calcium ion influx?

    Until I see or figure out those answers I may be a little hesitant with DAA also now.

    Thanks for bringing this all up guys by the way
    Again I am no expert and have a neutral feeling about DAA. I have taken it before for 2 months and was fine with it (to my knowing at least). If anyone can help clarify anything, add to, correct, or give any input it will be greatly appreaciated.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Thanks judo, for wording it for us high school educated guys lol

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    ^

    For real. I've been lurking in this thread for a few days........

    Then I read the breakdown from JudoJosh earlier and it started to make sense.

    These are great questions that I would love to see answered (IMO)
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    I belive DAA is a NMDA agonist as well.. Through the methyl-tranferase reaction some is converted to N-Methyl-D-Aspartate which is far more potent but I am pretty sure DAA is an agonist on it's own..

    Good info though and good questions.
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    great thread.stay away from DAA til further notice
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    so now the question is Lit- safe-to use? I havebeen following along JJ thank you....
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    Anybody figure out a way to tolerate GI sides effectively? About an hour after I take it without fail I have like ridiculous diarrhea=no good at my job. I'm clenching my asscheeks to hold it in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgcrz8 View Post
    Anybody figure out a way to tolerate GI sides effectively? About an hour after I take it without fail I have like ridiculous diarrhea=no good at my job. I'm clenching my asscheeks to hold it in.
    I took DAA from NP after weighing up the excitotoxicity risks and thought I would give it a go at the lowest dosage.

    I had stomach pain and diarrhoea, tried splitting the dosage, taking with food etc. After three days or so I stopped usage and sold it.

    In retrospect the possible risks on the brain are not worth it for me and I wouldn't take it again and avoid formulas with it in.
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    ^^x2

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I took DAA from NP after weighing up the excitotoxicity risks and thought I would give it a go at the lowest dosage.

    I had stomach pain and diarrhoea, tried splitting the dosage, taking with food etc. After three days or so I stopped usage and sold it.

    In retrospect the possible risks on the brain are not worth it for me and I wouldn't take it again and avoid formulas with it in.
    This is exactly my stance!

    JJ - Your questions are valid questions, and ones you will not find a qualified answer for. You will find research on performance of DAA, but safety is lacking. As I said, we are elevating a known exitotoxin with the the severe ability to damage myelin. You will not find safety thresholds because everyone is different, especially with regard to brain chemistry. The problem with everyone's acute idea of saying "I was fine after two months of use" means nothing because the damage wouldn't show up till later in life with brain related disease. Alzheimers? Dimentia? Parkinsons? Who knows. But what I do know is all of these neural diseases are on the rise at a rapid pace, all that with the prior generations not touching stuff like this.

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    All of this talk about activating the NMDA receptor has me thinking of MSG.

    Are those having sides also prone to trouble with gluten, chinese food, top ramen, or gas station beef jerkey.
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    MSG and Aspartame/Aspartic Acid etc is an interesting comparison.

    This is definitely not scientific but offers another point of view. I found it interesting if for no other reason than to play devil's advocate.

    MSG/Aspartame Sensitivity
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    There are quite a few people taking DAA products, my point is to try to advise them on how to do it in a fashion that may help to minimize some of the sides that some individuals encounter

    I got the e-mail rolling along when I read Judo's post over at stakedcops Log and I have an answer now, gonna let u guys have it out on that one, here goes

    "Questions 1-3

    These cannot be quantitatively answered because there is no negative control, and in order to make even qualitative inferences, one would need to take a biopsy of the brain or testicles. (be my guest, somebody might pay you for the study)

    As far as I can tell, DAA almost exclusively promotes the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin-releasing hormone) which is responsible for LH (Luteinizing-hormone) production which is THEN responsible for steroidogenesis. With all these steps and with all the communication that has to occur, I doubt anything will get accumulated to astronomical levels unless somebody has a medical condition.


    Questions 4 and 5

    If you are talking about calcium influx into a neuron then the limiting factor will become glycine, the ion channel is BOTH ligand and voltage dependent.
    NMDA would have to bind AND glycine for calcium to enter the neuron, so even if there is an excess of NDMA it won't effect calcium ion influx into the cell unless there is also an excess of glycine as well. Glycine does not act exclusively as a neurotransmitter/hormone like DAA does so it will not necessarily accumulate in the brain more if you eat a ton of glycine.

    Secondly, the channel is voltage dependent, so if the charge inside the neuron reaches a certain point due to calcium buildup there will be a repulsion effect (think of sticking the same pole of two magnets together)


    I will say this.

    Since DAA is not active directly and must be metabolized, the body's negative feedback system will likely kick in before anything accumulates to dangerous levels.

    I hope this covers the information you wanted to cover."



    I have been sitting on my butt reading and reading for quite awhile on all sorts of aspartame and glutamate and what nots (Dolly Parton's movie 9-5 playing n the background :/ .....twice) and i havent been thrown off of having my two packets of sweetener in the morning yet.

    I have found on my own research, (even researching in Italian) a lot of evidence that back up the claims on the increased production of testosterone and it is used in Italy for fertility treatments. The truth I've seen is there seems to be a lot of info out there that verifies it really does what it's being marketed for in the supps industry and not much research on the negative effects although it does seem to be riding on the research done on aspartame.
    this is me, I'm like u guys, I do bodywork not a scientist.

    Now I've always had some ideas on the "increase" in neurological disorders (the quotation isn't because I don't believe it, it's because I haven't read up on like per capita or anything, so I'm not sure on it, or at least I haven't been convinced yet either way, but i will read up...anyway)
    alleged causes:
    plastic bowls, pill containers and water bottles etc... (basically a lot of plastic stuff)
    tampons
    fluorescent lights
    wireless devices
    *sunblock may cause chemical cancer

    ok any way lots of stuff.....
    Now I have no idea which way this goes in terms of the current discussion LOL but u know it's info that's out there.

    I'm gonna stay away from google for awhile O.o

    well I'm sure more questions will pop up so lets keep reading
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    What is everyone's thoughts with Agmatine then? If I recall correctly Agmatine is a NMDA antagonist right? So basically it's doing the opposite of what DAA is doing. I can't imagine that's a good thing either.
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    I have used it 3 times so far. Once for a month bulk, once with pills and currently bulk 3 grams a day. I have never noticed any adverse effects. I do notice higher testosterone like sides(positive). I enjoy it and will keep using it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrodz View Post
    I got the e-mail rolling along when I read Judo's post over at stakedcops Log and I have an answer now, gonna let u guys have it out on that one, here goes

    "Questions 1-3

    These cannot be quantitatively answered because there is no negative control, and in order to make even qualitative inferences, one would need to take a biopsy of the brain or testicles. (be my guest, somebody might pay you for the study)

    As far as I can tell, DAA almost exclusively promotes the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin-releasing hormone) which is responsible for LH (Luteinizing-hormone) production which is THEN responsible for steroidogenesis. With all these steps and with all the communication that has to occur, I doubt anything will get accumulated to astronomical levels unless somebody has a medical condition.


    Questions 4 and 5

    If you are talking about calcium influx into a neuron then the limiting factor will become glycine, the ion channel is BOTH ligand and voltage dependent.
    NMDA would have to bind AND glycine for calcium to enter the neuron, so even if there is an excess of NDMA it won't effect calcium ion influx into the cell unless there is also an excess of glycine as well. Glycine does not act exclusively as a neurotransmitter/hormone like DAA does so it will not necessarily accumulate in the brain more if you eat a ton of glycine.

    Secondly, the channel is voltage dependent, so if the charge inside the neuron reaches a certain point due to calcium buildup there will be a repulsion effect (think of sticking the same pole of two magnets together)


    I will say this.

    Since DAA is not active directly and must be metabolized, the body's negative feedback system will likely kick in before anything accumulates to dangerous levels.

    I hope this covers the information you wanted to cover."



    I have been sitting on my butt reading and reading for quite awhile on all sorts of aspartame and glutamate and what nots (Dolly Parton's movie 9-5 playing n the background :/ .....twice) and i havent been thrown off of having my two packets of sweetener in the morning yet.

    I have found on my own research, (even researching in Italian) a lot of evidence that back up the claims on the increased production of testosterone and it is used in Italy for fertility treatments. The truth I've seen is there seems to be a lot of info out there that verifies it really does what it's being marketed for in the supps industry and not much research on the negative effects although it does seem to be riding on the research done on aspartame.
    this is me, I'm like u guys, I do bodywork not a scientist.

    Now I've always had some ideas on the "increase" in neurological disorders (the quotation isn't because I don't believe it, it's because I haven't read up on like per capita or anything, so I'm not sure on it, or at least I haven't been convinced yet either way, but i will read up...anyway)
    alleged causes:
    plastic bowls, pill containers and water bottles etc... (basically a lot of plastic stuff)
    tampons
    fluorescent lights
    wireless devices
    *sunblock may cause chemical cancer

    ok any way lots of stuff.....
    Now I have no idea which way this goes in terms of the current discussion LOL but u know it's info that's out there.

    I'm gonna stay away from google for awhile O.o

    well I'm sure more questions will pop up so lets keep reading
    So basically we still don't know if it is safe or not.

    Edit: Repped for your work smallfry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    I have used it 3 times so far. Once for a month bulk, once with pills and currently bulk 3 grams a day. I have never noticed any adverse effects. I do notice higher testosterone like sides(positive). I enjoy it and will keep using it.
    About 3 weeks in on PCT. About the same results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    All of this talk about activating the NMDA receptor has me thinking of MSG.

    Are those having sides also prone to trouble with gluten, chinese food, top ramen, or gas station beef jerkey.
    Not here.. I have never had a problem with anything I eat or drink.. Nor some very questionable substances I have taken.. Although 10 days on DAA made me feel like I had been binging all night..
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    am i the only one who didn't get jack from daa.....i didn't feel better, i didn't see any bb gains, balls didn't swell....the best part of the stuff was it tasted awesome for a bulk supplement
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    Can I just get some clarification also here.. Who said that the test boosting activity of DAA was due to its conversion to NMDA and it's activity on that receptor? Or is that theorized? I looked through the whole test and didn't see that information implied anywhere.. Although it was stated that some was converted to NMDA..

    http://www.rbej.com/content/7/1/120

    Here we demonstrated that D-aspartic acid, which occurs as a physiological compound in the mammalian pituitary and testis, has a role in the regulation of the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone. In humans and rats, sodium D-Asp treatment enhances the release of LH and testosterone. The experiments that we carried out on rats have permitted us to understand that this amino acid regulates the synthesis of LH and testosterone in the pituitary and the testis respectively. This action is mediated in the pituitary by cGMP and in the testis by cAMP, which act as the second messengers in the signal transduction in the pituitary and testes respectively. The pituitary and testis possesses a D-Aspartate racemase, which provides the necessary production of D-Asp.
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    I am pretty sure this shows that DAA has NMDA activity on its own..

    Finally, D-Asp (100-1000 μM) stimulated PRL secretion and this effect was reduced by a NMDA receptor antagonist.

    https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejour...5/s-2002-29092
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    The amino acid, D-aspartate, exists in the mammalian brain and is an agonist at the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) subtype of ionotropic glutamate receptors.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15806114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    am i the only one who didn't get jack from daa.....i didn't feel better, i didn't see any bb gains, balls didn't swell....the best part of the stuff was it tasted awesome for a bulk supplement
    Yeah, aspartic acids have a sweet taste.

    Studies are showing that it increases testosterone by about a third. What sort of gains were you expecting from daa?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Yeah, aspartic acids have a sweet taste.

    Studies are showing that it increases testosterone by about a third. What sort of gains were you expecting from daa?
    at what dose and after how long. also how long will this last after stopping, plus will it put you in the negative after. the study i saw was based on 3 gm for 12 days, will higher dose and longer use increase or decrease effect. mostly i am concerned about what happens after taking-will it continue to keep test level raised for a significant amount of time, or will test levels drop to lower than before using level.

    i had great bb'ing effect from daa, strength and appetite both went way up-less than when i started test cyp but in the ballpark. difference was libido tanked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    at what dose and after how long. also how long will this last after stopping, plus will it put you in the negative after. the study i saw was based on 3 gm for 12 days, will higher dose and longer use increase or decrease effect. mostly i am concerned about what happens after taking-will it continue to keep test level raised for a significant amount of time, or will test levels drop to lower than before using level.

    i had great bb'ing effect from daa, strength and appetite both went way up-less than when i started test cyp but in the ballpark. difference was libido tanked.
    Now we're getting into the complexities of new product development.

    The benefits of early acceptence are to obtain the edge from a new product, the risk are the limited research on long-term use.

    While your questions are valid, they're expensive to verify.

    I would imagine test levels increase slowly, then rapidly, then begin to level off, and slowly start to wain with continued usage. This would require a lot of really expensive blood tests. Usually in doing a clinical study, the results are compromised by limited funds. There's an order of operations these tend to follow. You can see the same trend with creatine monohydrate in the 90's. First it's a matter of determining if the product does anything. When this is accomplished, then things progress to determine long-term use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Now we're getting into the complexities of new product development.

    The benefits of early acceptence are to obtain the edge from a new product, the risk are the limited research on long-term use.

    While your questions are valid, they're expensive to verify.

    I would imagine test levels increase slowly, then rapidly, then begin to level off, and slowly start to wain with continued usage. This would require a lot of really expensive blood tests. Usually in doing a clinical study, the results are compromised by limited funds. There's an order of operations these tend to follow. You can see the same trend with creatine monohydrate in the 90's. First it's a matter of determining if the product does anything. When this is accomplished, then things progress to determine long-term use.
    my biggest concern is does test levels fall off the chart after using. lol-do you need a pct for daa?
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    my biggest concern is does test levels fall off the chart after using. lol-do you need a pct for daa?
    If I recall grambo had bloods and said his test levels were normal after use. I'm not 100% sure but I was using 6 grams for a month and stopped once I read all the **** about NMDA but I kept taking my 2 erase. Can't be sure without bloods but my lady poker works fine still. I miss the every lasting sexual desire daa gave me... I still have a huge appetite for woman but man I was unreal while I daa!!

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    Well I was planning on running DAA in my summer cut, very happy I found this thread the knowledge dropped has been awesome, now I will not be running DAA, sucks too because it works but I'm not wanting to mess with my brain, its already unstable enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    my biggest concern is does test levels fall off the chart after using. lol-do you need a pct for daa?
    The mechanism seems a bit indirect to cause significant negative feedback on a single outlet. When feedback happens over so many iterations, it takes a long time for the signal to get back to the source, and by that point it's usually pretty muffled. Kind of like when you were 6 and played the game "telephone".

    My guess is that the natural formation from the L-isomer isn't all too significant. Too pick up the slack, you probably have a high receptor density, and thus the capacity for more more activation through external DAA supplementing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    The mechanism seems a bit indirect to cause significant negative feedback on a single outlet. When feedback happens over so many iterations, it takes a long time for the signal to get back to the source, and by that point it's usually pretty muffled. Kind of like when you were 6 and played the game "telephone".

    My guess is that the natural formation from the L-isomer isn't all too significant. Too pick up the slack, you probably have a high receptor density, and thus the capacity for more more activation through external DAA supplementing.
    thanks...i think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubsnt3 View Post
    Not here.. I have never had a problem with anything I eat or drink.. Nor some very questionable substances I have taken.. Although 10 days on DAA made me feel like I had been binging all night..
    In all fairness, on a molar basis, 3g of DAA is equal to 3.8g of MSG.

    I'm not sure what that converts to in terms of packages of Top Ramen.
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    I started getting really bad anxiety on DAA and I've never had it before.. I've since stopped but am still getting it, but noticeably less often.. I don't suggest DAA is solely to blame for this, however it is interesting that it's declined since I stopped taking it.
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    So to sum up what I've read thus far. DAA has been shown to increase test in in vivo studies, but nobody can produce a single study showing this excitotoxicity that some are stating as "fact." Please, if you have a study, post it, otherwise that is worse than bro science...it's bad science.
  

  
 

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