Sleep supps - how important?
- 07-20-2009, 02:44 PM
Sleep supps - how important?
I just rant out of ZMA and don't think I'll be buying more. But I've come across Millennium sport's ZMK and Somnidren, which have some nice claims, such as increasing testosterone, IGF-1, and GH, and maximizing REM sleep.
How important/effective do you think sleep supps are?
- 07-20-2009, 02:57 PM
Sleep is a very important part of muscle growth. I thought Somnidren-gh was great. Glycobol is also getting good reviews for improving sleep quality.
- 07-21-2009, 08:06 AM
Just started ZMK about a week ago. Definitely a difference in recovery, sleep, etc. It doesnt knock you out or anything like that, its just good stuff. The rest of the stuff I havent tried.
07-21-2009, 03:30 PM
Sleep supps are important to give you the highest quality sleep. Some are better than others though.
ZMK is the best "zma" type supp out and MST is my stable multiv/mineral. It promoites some good sleep.
The best I have used so far is what I am loggin right now, Total Force 1. My sleep is DEEEP without any real grogginess the next morning. Have to see if it keeps it same magic through the next few weeks.
07-21-2009, 03:32 PM
Agreed with all, Powerfull plus glycobol plus total force1 equal a great gh releaser, awesome overall combo.
doing my own thang!
07-21-2009, 03:43 PM
I wouldnt say they are necessary, but more of an advantage. If you can afford them why not take them? Sleep is very important to bodybuilding and your life cycle.
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07-21-2009, 04:43 PM
True...... Not 100% necessary. Buy neither is most stuff we buy
07-21-2009, 05:36 PM
I love the ZMK and Somnidren combo, real deep sleep and wake up feeling refrshed, I wish nutra still had the combo for cheap...
07-22-2009, 10:17 PM
I find it very important as sleep is something I struggle with. Let me rephrase that; QUALITY sleep is something I struggle with.
I love USP Labs PowerFULL. I feel a huge difference when I wake up in the morning. Recovery is the biggest difference I see.
As for it being necessary? I would say that depends on what kind of sleeper you are.
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07-23-2009, 02:25 AM
07-23-2009, 10:48 AM
I have a question in regards to this topic.
Most sleep suppliments (Natural HGH, test, or just deep sleep ones) All usualy say to take on an empty stomach... Sooo.. How would I time this in with my Pre bed meal? (Just a Casein shake)
An hour-30 minutes before bed I take valarian root, then my pre bed ****tail is this;
- ZMA ()
- 6g L-Arginine
- 1g L-Lysine
- 1g L-Ornithine
- 1g Astragalus
- 650mg Colostrum
07-23-2009, 11:31 AM
I've had the same dilemma.
07-26-2009, 02:59 PM
some of this stuff has phenibut in it. Just be careful with this stuff. Do a search, there is some concern with it.
08-26-2009, 06:44 PM
great feedback on the Somnidren GH + ZMK stack everyone...thank you!
to the last poster, anything in an MST product is dosed optimally for synergy within the product, and safety for the user. There are no concerns to be had via Phenibut in Somnidren.
08-26-2009, 06:55 PM
I'm being serious... I'd like to know how dosing phenibut nightly would be a healthy routine for healthy sleep. If you're going to assert that there's no withdrawal issues with it at lower dosages, please provide some data for that.
08-26-2009, 07:37 PM
I have had some experience with sleep-aids. My ultimate favorite is IBE's x-dream (the new one). It's form of 2-bromomelatonin is enough just to put you out and not feel groggy when waking up. Gabob is also a wonder ingredient that many do not know about. Even though x-dream does not 'knock' you out... it slowly puts you to sleep. I have noticed if I have x-dream and am sitting up on the computer with the lights on watching tv.... I am not going to really drift to sleep... If I lay in bed and watch a little tv.. I can really feel the difference. Your body needs to be ready for sleeping or you need to put yourself in a 'setting' which tells your body that you are wanting to sleep soon. Also, the fact that I start to feel a little hungry right before crashing makes me believe a decent amount of gh is being released in my body.
Somnidren-GH is a supplement that CAN knock you out faster. But honestly... each time I use it, it provides a different experience. One day it can hit me very hard and drift right to sleep while waking up feeling refreshed. And the next day or two I can have the most terrible headache for 8 hours after waking up (like today!). And other times I feel groggggy for hours after waking up. I use the subling technique every time also and yes I AM giving myself at least 8 hours of sleep . I believe the phenibut is the reason why each time I use it I have a different experience.
USP Labs Powerfull = a quick onset of sleepiness followed by a stimulant feeling if I don't fall asleep soon enough. I wake up feeling refreshed.
ALSO! If taking any of these supplements in the day time to alleviate stress, x-dream wins. I get an instant feeling of anti-anxiety. I may feel a tad sleepy but it is that sleepy-feel that you get when everything is funny!
Out of all three of these... X-dream FTW!!!
08-26-2009, 07:50 PM
I'll probably incorporate ZMK back into my regimen. L-Dopa products are nice, but I wouldn't use them on a regular basis. Stick to the basics for your staples (either Primaforce ZMA or MST ZMK) and just cycle in the other stuff if you feel the desire. I personally feel better about myself when I fall asleep naturally as opposed to the use of an aid, even if it's more for the GH-benefits, although, ZMA is just straight up good for you, so that's different.
08-26-2009, 08:53 PM
zma is doubly important then, because it has the side effect of promoting sleep. I take it because I figure I may lack zinc and magnesium, not for the sleep effect.
try melatonin and valerian root, they are extremely cheap and very very very effective. much more than ZMA. melatonin also has fast/slow absorbing, so consider that when buying.
08-26-2009, 09:47 PM
I use ZMA - it's sleep benefits are a bonus, but I'd just take it for the extra zinc and mag. As for other sleep aids, I cycle 1-Carboxy on and off, and keep a bottle of X-Dream on my nightstand, for a little extra help when I need it.
Pembroke - How is Glycobol used before bed?
08-26-2009, 10:17 PM
If you're looking for a study and concrete data on paper as to the withdrawls from low doses of phenibut vs. the solid results.....look it up, haha. Again, i'm not looking to come off as a jerk but so many people on forums expect you to provide them with their reading material, and they're the same people preaching things like "dude, just use the search button". I'd never assume you're one of those people....but at the same time, when phenibut has been used since the mid 1900's all over the world to cure insomnia (as well as anxiety and a few others)....I can't see why we'd argue these results.
08-26-2009, 10:45 PM
Oh, and I get the gaba-phenibut relationship, but when phenibut is marketed as a "recreational supplement," the exact substance name is promoted heavily -- Phenibut! Phenibut!. I find it suspicious that in a sleep-aid product, it's practically glossed over.
C'mon man... you know what I'm saying.
After reading the horror stories over at Mind & Muscle pertaining to phenibut addiction and withdrawal, I think it's completely irresponsible to post in a thread that there are no concerns to be had.
Saying that it has to be safe because it's been used to treat insomnia for the last 60 years... doesn't make it a healthy idea.
A quick look at a half dozen sites, all say the same:
"Taking phenibut daily can lead to dose-dependent withdrawal. Withdrawal symptoms can include acute anxiety and insomnia that can last for up to two weeks afterwards."
Does the above sound healthy? Should there be absolutely no concern?
08-26-2009, 10:56 PM
I need to remind you that I did not say there are no concerns to be had with phenibut and poor dosing, phenibut and mis-use, phenibut and irresponsibility, or phenibut and mentally challenged people.
What I did say though, is that in a product by MST, there's no such concern to be had because of the extreme care we take to provide the utmost synergy between ingredients not only for results...but also for the safety of our customers.
I hope that cleared things up a bit
08-26-2009, 10:57 PM
08-26-2009, 11:09 PM
Once upon a time there were bodybuilders that said that milk and eggs were the only ways to get the frames they were after. Then one day one of them said "I will stop using dairy and I will get the body I desire". Then one day a doctor said that eggs were raising every bodybuilders cholesterol levels to unsafe levels and they had to slow down their usage. Then one day some of them started using egg whites and skim milk. ETC.....
The point here is that no matter how many studies are conducted on things as simple as even milk and eggs....there will always be one study that tells you one thing, and another that tells you something totally different. In all honesty, if I gave you a study that said that Phenibut was not only safe, but tasted like honey nut cheerios....what difference would it really make in your mind towards the product NOW?
I can give you studies that say Phenibut increases relaxation when tested with use vs. heart rate, that it increases brain function when dosed before testing, and that phenibut can also attack the very things that you have said it causes.....but why? Thats what I meant in the very first post when I said go ahead and research if you so choose.
In the end it all comes down to what companies you trust and which ones you don't. Just like it always does....with anything really. I will continue to buy as many products as I can from the USA, as much local produce as I can, as many organic items as possible, and I will continue to use the products that have treated myself and so many others that I know and trust....well.
08-26-2009, 11:15 PM
My initial request for data was tongue-in-cheek. I read about the withdrawal on a weekly basis. It's real. I've experienced it myself. So, I think it's dangerous for everyone to think it's a good sleep aid to use regularly.
08-26-2009, 11:18 PM
08-27-2009, 05:42 AM
If you overdose on ambien you can set a new world record for sleeping the longest, MJ tried but failed, walt disney could win if his brain hasnt decomposed and in 30 years we can hook a computer up to it.
08-27-2009, 06:04 AM
08-27-2009, 08:25 AM
08-27-2009, 10:24 AM
so sorry to see that this was such a serious discussion, I was posting random postings to get my post rate up so I could PM someone.
guess rubberring is the head Troll around these boards, probably worships and watches fight club every night beating off to brad pitt making soap while remembering every line that is said.
kidding aside, phenibut shouldn't be in a sleep aid and is a serious type of substance. Why would someone incorporate that into a compound for sleep? I'm not as knowledgeable as I used to be about phenibut(when I was taking it)
but I do know you should not take it ED for sleep. You might as well lace your compound with xanax, it would be the same thing.
I took Phenibut for like anti social anxiety but it didn't work. People posted about it doing wonders for them in that dept. but not for me. I gave some to my friend, like 800mg and he had a hangover the next day, without drinking, just smoking weed, hes a druggie. What i'm saying is Phenibut is as serious as xanax and other prescription drugs in terms of what it does in your brain. I'm surprised you can still buy it.
wow I'm looking at the product description of SOMNIDREN GH, thats a crazy looking profile of a lot of chemicals that are precursors to neurotransmitters, I've seen a LOT of supplement profiles and this has to be one of the... i don't know how to describe it, I actually have every single one of those chemicals except the phenibut in powder form right now, but I take them at different times because they are not synergistic(i think),
WOW, this chemical profile, everytime I look at it, it doesnt seem real
Choline Bitartrate, Dmae Bitartrate, L-Tyrosine,l-Theanine, = precursors to every transmitter except serotonin, why dont you just throw in 5-HTP? rofl, At least 5-HTP is actually used as a sleep aid, while DMAE and CHOLINE are the opposite of sleep aids.
The whole thing is when you take precursors like that, they compete and are not synergistic, like dopamine and serotonin are, but the 2 others are not. This is one crazy supplement I might try it during the day but not for a sleep aid. I took L-theanine as a sleep aid to increase GABA and everytime it was so hard to wakeup. I took 5-HTP as a sleep aid one time also... both of these work but its just hard to get up.
Unisom works by blocking the receptors of choline and you having 2 precursors in your product should act as the opposite(make your mind race), I just dont get this profile, there is just no way all of these chemicals are working synergistic
How much of Phenibut is in this compound?
08-27-2009, 01:58 PM
08-27-2009, 07:45 PM
If you are a light sleeper or do not sleep for long, then sleep supplements can be a huge pick me up. I do not sleep well normally so when I take zma i generally awake much more rested and feel more recovered in the morning. Sleep supplements and how effective they are will depend on the individual and their sleep patterns.
08-27-2009, 08:32 PM
08-27-2009, 09:47 PM
Wow this thread got screwed up in hurry. First off, anyone suggesting that S-GH contains enough phenibut to elicit ill effects or withdrawal symptoms in 100% incorrect. Most withdrawal symptoms are caused by daily dosing of 500mg-1000mg and I assure you that S-GH contains only a small fraction of that amount. We certainly use a much smaller amount than some of these companies and we use quality uncorrupted raw material. We don't recommend taking it daily as a 5 on 2 off regimen works best for any product where receptor site down regulation could come into play. Most people who get side effects from S-GH such as headaches are typically the ones who take other supposed sleep aids, prescription drugs, supplements or are taking other dopamine precursors along side S-GH. S-GH isn't meant to be a "sleep" aid. It is all about GH release and its incredibly apparent from reading this thread that people for the most part JUST DON'T GET IT. Sleep is just a pleasant effect of the product, not its main purpose. Get it straight!
In my opinion anyone suffering from social anxiety disorder for the most part should distance themselves from anything dopamine related (and most sleep aids) and should do an exhaustive amount of homework on their condition and possible aggravating compounds to their condition before putting anything into their system. Social anxiety disorder isn't something that you should trust your buddy's recommendation or try something posted to a forum thread to treat. There may be a serious neurotransmitter imbalance and self medicating or supplementing without the facts is never a good idea. 800mg of phenibut is rarely advised for someone with balanced neurochemistry let alone someone with heightened social anxiety.
To say that phenibut should be in the same class as xanax is ridiculous. Any compound can be abused!!! The terms "chemicals" & "chemical profile" has also been used in a terrible context. LOL.
Maybe we should get started on all of the people screwing their pineal glands over by taking needless amounts of exogenous melatonin before bed. Madness I tell you!
08-27-2009, 10:09 PM
08-27-2009, 10:32 PM
somn or somni is Latin for sleep. Insomnia is the inability to fall asleep.
From your own product write-up:
"Somnidren-GH™ is an ultra potent, target response sleep and growth hormone potentiator formulated to maximize recuperative REM sleep & Growth Hormone production while reducing stress and anxiety promoting a favorable anabolic environment while sleeping."
Potentiate - to increase the effect or likelihood of
Don't even try to go all semantic on me about this either. I was willing to let the phenibut issue die... but to now say Somnidren, a word you refrain from typing, is not marketed as a sleep aid??? Dude...
08-27-2009, 10:39 PM
Btw... you might want to contact the numerous online vendors who put your product in their sleep aid category. Obviously, they JUST DON'T GET IT.
08-27-2009, 11:05 PM
I can stand behind the 500-1000mg dose of phenibut because as you can see by looking the majority of studies and testimonials from phenibut dependants that its typically a half gram to a full gram of daily use that leads to dependency. I'm not saying that it can't happen at lower doses for some people but I'm saying that S-GH has a mere fraction of that per serving so yes, I can say that dependency has never been an issue in the three years its been on the market. It has never been an issue in our testing or anybody elses testing. Obviously tolerance it will vary from person to person but as we've seen a couple hundred milligrams isn't going to elicit dependency.
Somnidren-GH is far more about GH production than sleep. Thats how I can come off sounding condescending and say that people dont really get it. We don't market Somnidren-GH as a conventional sleep aid, as the term implies that it is "only going to help you sleep". S-GH is a growth hormone and sleep potentiator (as you have correctly defined as "to increase the effect or likelyhood of"). Will S-GH help you sleep? Yes! Thank God it will! Is it a conventional sleep aid as so defined by this industry? No! It's far more than that. By no means was I trying to insult your or anyone elses intelligence and I see your point and frustration but I get a little bent out of shape when S-GH is demoted to a lowly sleep aid in the minds of the masses.
08-27-2009, 11:07 PM
08-27-2009, 11:11 PM
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