As a quick read... the result do look significant for cortisol and testo. Not however for HGH.

Its not a great journal but the results do look convincing.

I need to read it in detail and look at exactly what the sample size is and the stats they are using. But yeah ...

Okay I've read it. I don't have any problems give that this is a developing area of research.

The stats are okay, the ANOVA analysis really needed an Rmax calculation to check it was valid. Otherwise no complaints.

The sample size is SMALL. The basic conclusion is looks good, but it would need repeating with a bigger sample size.

Basically PAS is capping the cortisol response under INTENSIVE training (to exhaustion). So if thats your gym routine PAS is a good supplement. The paper is pretty well written and easy to read.

The proposed mechanism:
"PS plays a significant role in the maintenance of neuronal excitability and message transfer potentially resulting in a reduced need for adrenergic stimulation at moderate intensity exercise levels"

The increase in testo seemed okay but one of the stats wasn't significant. There was no significant increase in HGH.

Thanks do you have any similar paper on GPC?

Originally Posted by matthias7

Okay I've read it. I don't have any problems give that this is a developing area of research.

The stats are okay, the ANOVA analysis really needed an Rmax calculation to check it was valid. Otherwise no complaints.

The sample size is SMALL. The basic conclusion is looks good, but it would need repeating with a bigger sample size.

Basically PAS is capping the cortisol response under INTENSIVE training (to exhaustion). So if thats your gym routine PAS is a good supplement. The paper is pretty well written and easy to read.

The proposed mechanism:
"PS plays a significant role in the maintenance of neuronal excitability and message transfer potentially resulting in a reduced need for adrenergic stimulation at moderate intensity exercise levels"

The increase in testo seemed okay but one of the stats wasn't significant. There was no significant increase in HGH.

Thanks do you have any similar paper on GPC?

Here's one to start. I'll try to post up more later when i have a bit more time.

Acute supplementation with alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine augments growth hormone response to, and peak force production during, resistance exercise

http://www.jissn.com/content/5/S1/P15

Originally Posted by matthias7

As a quick read... the result do look significant for cortisol and testo. Not however for HGH.

That was just a study on PS for the T:C benefits. Its the Alpha-GPC that provides the GH boosting effects.

Trauma posted a good study above ^

-Eric

Thanks I will read it this evening.

Okay I read it. Small paper. The sample size was too small to be significant. Pity.

The PAS - cortisol link is strong and it looks (pretty much) like there is a link with testosterone. However these associations are for excercise till exhaustion. "bioactive" it must be though.

A-GPC as a cholinergenic agent should be good. As a means of increasing HGH - certainly the paper above was inconclusive. There could be better studies - the problem again was that there were not enough people in the study - actually if my memory serves me it was rats. I know nothing about rats but they seemed really old rats.

The price of the product has slightly decreased I think its now $52. My conclusion is for those 1 or 2wice a week work till you drop sessions - this looks good.

Originally Posted by matthias7

Okay I read it. Small paper. The sample size was too small to be significant. Pity.

The PAS - cortisol link is strong and it looks (pretty much) like there is a link with testosterone. However these associations are for excercise till exhaustion. "bioactive" it must be though.

A-GPC as a cholinergenic agent should be good. As a means of increasing HGH - certainly the paper above was inconclusive. There could be better studies - the problem again was that there were not enough people in the study - actually if my memory serves me it was rats. I know nothing about rats but they seemed really old rats.

The price of the product has slightly decreased I think its now $52. My conclusion is for those 1 or 2wice a week work till you drop sessions - this looks good.

When i get some time this weekend, i'll post some more studies for you to look over, matthias. The sample size was small in the article i posted, but i think what was demonstrated was at least fairly promising in regard to A-GPC. Yes more studies are needed, but it's a pretty good start and some insight into the potential.

There are some guys now posting up their anecdotal feedback with our EndoAmp Max product. I'll put together a log that consolidates that info and post it up in here for a general review.

Originally Posted by matthias7

Okay I read it. Small paper. The sample size was too small to be significant. Pity.

The PAS - cortisol link is strong and it looks (pretty much) like there is a link with testosterone. However these associations are for excercise till exhaustion. "bioactive" it must be though.

A-GPC as a cholinergenic agent should be good. As a means of increasing HGH - certainly the paper above was inconclusive. There could be better studies - the problem again was that there were not enough people in the study - actually if my memory serves me it was rats. I know nothing about rats but they seemed really old rats.

The price of the product has slightly decreased I think its now $52. My conclusion is for those 1 or 2wice a week work till you drop sessions - this looks good.

The study was with humans.

As i said there isnt any single study that will "prove" anything, but a compilation of research that shows a strong corelation between PS/Alpha-GPC supporting GH & testosterone while keeping cortisol in check.

I know ChemiNutra has more studies planned for these nutrients. Heck, they just filed a patent on PS for its effects on testosterone...

-Eric

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

The study was with humans.

As i said there isnt any single study that will "prove" anything, but a compilation of research that shows a strong corelation between PS/Alpha-GPC supporting GH & testosterone while keeping cortisol in check.

I know ChemiNutra has more studies planned for these nutrients. Heck, they just filed a patent on PS for its effects on testosterone...

-Eric

Funny.... indeed. I read so many papers I was getting them confused...

Getting humans confused with lab rats.... I wonder why?

Okay the result wasn't significant. Sample size was 7 ... low.

I disagree on the one study doesn't "prove" anything. The previous study here on PAS was statistically significant. There was no question that was a real result and it was pretty real even for testosterone as well. The question on that one study was to independently repeat it. Given all these studies use low sample sizes it was striking how significant the results were. It was pretty stunning actually.

A-GPC at a guess I'd say the effect is more marginal.

Originally Posted by matthias7

Funny.... indeed. I read so many papers I was getting them confused...

Getting humans confused with lab rats.... I wonder why?

Okay the result wasn't significant. Sample size was 7 ... low.

I disagree on the one study doesn't "prove" anything. The previous study here on PAS was statistically significant. There was no question that was a real result and it was pretty real even for testosterone as well. The question on that one study was to independently repeat it. Given all these studies use low sample sizes it was striking how significant the results were. It was pretty stunning actually.

A-GPC at a guess I'd say the effect is more marginal.

Well like I says the evidence is in the compilation of many references… so here is another on Alpha-GPC and GH in humans… I guess its just easier to swallow them one at a time eh?

http://www.primordialperformance.com...eda-011309.pdf

-Eric

eric,

Since the release of endoamp max, do you still recommend the same protocol as endoamp (morning on non workout days, otherwise post workout)?

Originally Posted by johnyq

eric,

Since the release of endoamp max, do you still recommend the same protocol as endoamp (morning on non workout days, otherwise post workout)?

Actually we recommend 1 hour before exercise now... but I'm sure eventually you are going to get the same benefits no mater what time you use it.

-Eric

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

I guess its just easier to swallow them one at a time eh?

http://www.primordialperformance.com...eda-011309.pdf

-Eric

Thanks .. funny.. "swallow one at a time" - you know the work pressure that sort of thing.

This looks more significant (this is a statistical term meaning "statisitically important".

I'll be buying EndoMax. Why?
1. Cost: Its not as expensive for quality PAS as it appears. PAS is really expensive. I pay alot more for my PAS supplements. I was a bit shocked when I found out.
2. The results for cortisol blocking look good. The negative correlation with testosterone looks great.
3. Its peace of mind I can go all out for it and be less concerned about the "stress payback". That is important and I don't think the importance has really been appreciated.
4. GPC - I want to try this for the cholinergenic effects alone. GH would be a bonus. My GH isn't low though.
5. PAS does a whole load of other good things besides block cortisol.

All in all I think its a good deal.

Remaining questions:
Is it caps or loose powder? Is there any chance of lowering to a 400mg dose? I don't want to do the max. dose as at least one study didn't find a dose dependent response (400mg worked as well as 800mg).

The only hassle is that NutraPlanet doesn't do PayPal. It is a hassle for overseas purchase because the card company charges for commission both for an overseas purchase and the currency conversion. I presume PayPal will charge the company for the commission instead thats why they don't use them.

All in all this has been a great thread and thanks to the reps for sticking this one out despite the initial hostilities.

Originally Posted by matthias7

Thanks .. funny.. "swallow one at a time" - you know the work pressure that sort of thing.

This looks more significant (this is a statistical term meaning "statisitically important".

I'll be buying EndoMax. Why?
1. Cost: Its not as expensive for quality PAS as it appears. PAS is really expensive. I pay alot more for my PAS supplements. I was a bit shocked when I found out.
2. The results for cortisol blocking look good. The negative correlation with testosterone looks great.
3. Its peace of mind I can go all out for it and be less concerned about the "stress payback". That is important and I don't think the importance has really been appreciated.
4. GPC - I want to try this for the cholinergenic effects alone. GH would be a bonus. My GH isn't low though.
5. PAS does a whole load of other good things besides block cortisol.

All in all I think its a good deal.

Remaining questions:
Is it caps or loose powder? Is there any chance of lowering to a 400mg dose? I don't want to do the max. dose as at least one study didn't find a dose dependent response (400mg worked as well as 800mg).

The only hassle is that NutraPlanet doesn't do PayPal. It is a hassle for overseas purchase because the card company charges for commission both for an overseas purchase and the currency conversion. I presume PayPal will charge the company for the commission instead thats why they don't use them.

All in all this has been a great thread and thanks to the reps for sticking this one out despite the initial hostilities.

Glad you figured out that EndoAmp was a worthy product.

Its a loose powder, so you could take a 1/2 scoop as a daily dose.

We take paypal and all major CCs on our site.

-Eric

Prepping for the Bar this summer as well as trying to stay lean when im stressed and craving fatty food all the time. I need all the help I can get for both body and mind.

I plan to pick up both Toco-8 and EndoAmp. You can say whatever you want about PAS and how "much" of a difference its impact makes on overall physique. This is definitely an arguable point. However, its hard to argue that any other compound has as many studies backing that it does lower cortisol better than most options (7-keto is the only other thing I would take). I look at these products as smart choices for overall health and fitness more so than "muslce enhancing" options. Lets be real, only androgenic/anabolic compounds really lead to noteworthy muscle gains. That said, both of these are ideal products for me right now. EndoAmp has an amazing list of documented benefits as well as lowering cortisol and helping with mental acuity. I dont feel the nootropic benefits of this product should be overlooked either.

I see a lot of people refer to the price of EndoAmp as well. I admit, $50 is a bit steep (im broke right now, barbri review course is $3k). However, when you look at the AMOUNT you are getting it is easily one of the best deals around. Compared to most PAS caps out there you are getting a LOT more bang for your buck. 100mg caps vs 800mg 1 serving doses with EndoAmp. These are the therapeutic doses you need to actually deliver on some of these claims attributed to PAS. It's not just priced higher, the dosages are SMARTER and you pay for it. The same goes for Toco-8. Compare the price and the dosage to a competing toco formulation. Now's capped toco is only 24mg of total alpha/gamma per cap. Toco-8 has a much higher dose per serving.

Many companies throw in "hot" compounds so they can market them and list them on the label. Primordial is one company that actually commits to putting the DOSAGES needed to deliver on claims made. A lot of companies include low dosages that really dont cut it in order to keep a price point more appealing. Primordial doesn't seem to sacrifice effectiveness for a price point.

I have no ties to PP, i don't get any free ****, i have no incentive to say this. It's just refreshing to see a company with a lineup of such solid, established (by science) products in dosage ranges that actually work. I dont think a lot of people realize this. There are not a lot of other supplement companies doing this. NP is one of the few that comes to mind for selling solid, documented compounds at decent prices in high dosages needed - and they are a BULK specialty company!

Originally Posted by Alpine

Prepping for the Bar this summer as well as trying to stay lean when im stressed and craving fatty food all the time. I need all the help I can get for both body and mind.

I plan to pick up both Toco-8 and EndoAmp. You can say whatever you want about PS and how "much" of a difference its impact makes on overall physique. This is definitely an arguable point. However, its hard to argue that any other compound has as many studies backing that it does lower cortisol better than most options (7-keto is the only other thing I would take). I look at these products as smart choices for overall health and fitness more so than "muslce enhancing" options. Lets be real, only androgenic/anabolic compounds really lead to noteworthy muscle gains. That said, both of these are ideal products for me right now. EndoAmp has an amazing list of documented benefits as well as lowering cortisol and helping with mental acuity. I dont feel the nootropic benefits of this product should be overlooked either.

I see a lot of people refer to the price of EndoAmp as well. I admit, $50 is a bit steep. However, when you look at the AMOUNT you are getting it is easily one of the best deals around. Compared to most PS caps out there you are getting a LOT more bang for your buck. 100mg caps vs 800mg 1 serving doses with EndoAmp. These are the therapeutic doses you need to actually deliver on some of these claims about PS. It's not just priced higher, the dosages are SMARTER and you pay for it. The same goes for Toco-8. Compare the price and the dosage to a competing toco formulation. Now's capped toco is only 24mg of total alpha/gamma per cap. Toco-8 has a much higher dose per serving.

Many companies throw in "hot" compounds so they can market them and list them on the label. Primordial is one company that actually commits to putting the DOSAGES needed to deliver on claims made. A lot of companies include low dosages that really dont cut it in order to keep a price point more appealing. Primordial doesn't seem to sacrifice effectiveness for a price point.

I have no ties to PP, i don't get any free ****, i have no incentive to say this. It's just refreshing to see a company with a lineup of such solid, established (by science) products in dosage ranges that actually work. I dont think a lot of people realize this.

It's really refreshing and rewarding to read posts like this.

We really do put a lot of time, effort, and hard work into the research and formulation of our products. I was drawn to Pp myself for the same reasons. I really admire eric's dedication in not only delivering innovative product formulations, but also to the time and research that's put forth behind it all as well.

I thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts, alpine.

^^^ How can u say that with a straight face? U took some insignificant studies...threw a product together , commissioned ZERO studies on your specific product and made claims based on the meaningless studies initially used used to throw this garbage together. Gimme a break ..this is everything that's wrong with this industry. Innovative ...6 oxo was innovative ...hpcd delivery was innovative .. this is regurgitated , anecdotal , BS combined with hype and marketing. Unreal.
Oh and go ahead and sling your insults since thats all you have since every word in this post is true. Shameful.

Originally Posted by steveironman

^^^ How can u say that with a straight face? U took some insignificant studies...threw a product together , commissioned ZERO studies on your specific product and made claims based on the meaningless studies initially used used to throw this garbage together. Gimme a break ..this is everything that's wrong with this industry. Innovative ...6 oxo was innovative ...hpcd delivery was innovative .. this is regurgitated , anecdotal , BS combined with hype and marketing. Unreal.
Oh and go ahead and sling your insults since thats all you have since every word in this post is true. Shameful.

Steve you're back! Good to see you again!

Im doing some more shilling on this thread... you should check it out and post some comments to bump it up -

Shift nutrients towards muscle cells and away from fat cells with CLA


-Eric

Steve what we are talking he is the 'flight or fight' response.

Big cortisol means 'run away' and it makes full sense why when cortisol is high testosterone is low. Long term high cortisol is damaging - particularly excessive exercise and mental work.

PAS has a known nootrophic effect but the performance in blocking cortisol spikes looks okay to me.

Basically its a known biochemical pathway and the studies look fine. A-GPC has a big nootropic reputation. I like cholinergenic compounds alot - they seem to deliver for me. Evidence that GPC raises HGH isn't as strong but it looks to have some impact. A-GPC as a nootrophic agent isnt in doubt.

PAS is a standard supplement what Primordial are doing is getting the price down. Getting the cortisol response down is really important. Its okay when you're mid-twenties but the pressures of life from their on only increase. You don't another stress factor and what you need is 'fighting mode' rather than anxiousness.

Originally Posted by steveironman

^^^ How can u say that with a straight face? U took some insignificant studies...threw a product together , commissioned ZERO studies on your specific product and made claims based on the meaningless studies initially used used to throw this garbage together. Gimme a break ..this is everything that's wrong with this industry. Innovative ...6 oxo was innovative ...hpcd delivery was innovative .. this is regurgitated , anecdotal , BS combined with hype and marketing. Unreal.
Oh and go ahead and sling your insults since thats all you have since every word in this post is true. Shameful.

Welcome back!!

Thanks for the bump, steve-o!

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

Steve you're back! Good to see you again!

Im doing some more shilling on this thread... you should check it out and post some comments to bump it up -

Shift nutrients towards muscle cells and away from fat cells with CLA


-Eric

Originally Posted by Trauma1

Welcome back!!

Thanks for the bump, steve-o!

Agreed, that was a nice bump. Maybe Steve-o can go out and join the PP crew for a few beers some day.

Originally Posted by simmons

Agreed, that was a nice bump. Maybe Steve-o can go out and join the PP crew for a few beers some day.

I'm game, but Eric's buying the "Jagga bombz!"

Originally Posted by Trauma1

I'm game, but Eric's buying the "Jagga bombz!"

Uh oh. Watch out for the guys with new haircuts...

Nice link here with a little more info on the T:C effects of PS -

http://www.ergo-log.com/phosphatidylserine.html

Ralf Jager just gave a nice little review on Phospholipids and sports performance -

http://www.primordialperformance.com...rformance).pdf

-Eric

Our Warehouse Clearance sale is running until tomorrow at midnight (27th)... which makes EndoAmp Max only $37 for a months supply... thats 30% off the regular price.

This is the cheapest you will ever find this product, so jump on it!

-Eric

Originally Posted by Primordial Perf

Our Warehouse Clearance sale is running until tomorrow at midnight (27th)... which makes EndoAmp Max only $37 for a months supply... thats 30% off the regular price.

This is the cheapest you will ever find this product, so jump on it!

-Eric

You guys have got about 6 hours left on this sale...

-Eric