WHAT IS THE BEST CARB FOR A POST WORKOUT SHAKE?

[dizdabiz]

DEXTROSE
MALTODEXTRIN
VITARGO
WAXY MAIZE STARCH
OTHER (PLEASE STATE)


Im going to be on a bulk soon and was thinking of 60g protein/100gram carbs in my own shake would like to find out your opinions on the best and how much carbs&protein you put in your shake. cheers!

 

[Tech2TheLimit]

Vitargo is awesome but a bit too expensive for me. I usually go with WMS

 

[Iceman1800]

Waxy maize is probably the best. One thing I like is gatorade mixed with natural flavor whey protein powder for a PWO meal

 

[jakellpet]

I use real food, but if I was going to use that empty calorie sh1t I'd go with a 50:50 mixture of Dextrose:WMS

 

[Basketball23]

karbolyn

 

[OCCFan023]

Waxy maize is probably the best. One thing I like is gatorade mixed with natural flavor whey protein powder for a PWO meal

careful with this option, Gatorade has a good amount of high fructose corn syrup. If you have the option check out powdered Gatorade (available in many supermarkets) which has no HFC and is pretty much straight dextrose.

Post workout I like a mix of slow burning complex carbs (oatmeals, w/w bagel) and a little bit faster complex carb (skim milk [lactose] and a banana [fructose]). I love the taste and love keeping it complex all day long lol.

 

[carpee]

powdered gatorade. glyco maize. NO MALTODEXTRIN!!
just get some apples bro

 

[wearedbleedblue]

I'm not sure but I think the only thing actually used in studies on exercise physiology uses maltodex/dextrose/glucose. I'd love to see a study where someone actually looked at WMS or any of these new starches/sugars and found them beneficial.

 

[wrasslin116]

If I'm doing carbs I like to put oats in my shake.

 

[sethroberts]

I'm not sure but I think the only thing actually used in studies on exercise physiology uses maltodex/dextrose/glucose. I'd love to see a study where someone actually looked at WMS or any of these new starches/sugars and found them beneficial.

Good point -- there is no evidence that WMS does anything special and plenty of research done with dextrose. Dextrose is identical to the basic sugar that the body uses (glucose) and is easily absorbed. Right after a workout you need some quick easily digestible carbs to restore muscle glycogen when the muscles are most sensitive. As long as you don't over do it. Research shows 20 grams of protein and 75 grams of dextrose to be best for growth immediately post-workout.

 

[djbombsquad]

Vitargo or carbolyn. WMS is no better than white bread.

 

[jakellpet]

Good point -- there is no evidence that WMS does anything special and plenty of research done with dextrose. Dextrose is identical to the basic sugar that the body uses (glucose) and is easily absorbed. Right after a workout you need some quick easily digestible carbs to restore muscle glycogen when the muscles are most sensitive. As long as you don't over do it. Research shows 20 grams of protein and 75 grams of dextrose to be best for growth immediately post-workout.

75g dex sounds like muscletech research for CellTech to me unless you are taking an effective nutrient partitioner like P-Slin...

stuff dextrose - use naturally occurring sugars from vegetable juices like carrots and beets - choc full of glucose and sucrose, but more importantly Vitamins, Minerals and Antioxidants.

 

[FlexW99]

I use grape juice in my shakes right after workout.

Otherwise, I try to use dextrose.

 

[AE14]

I have been quite happy with WMS, find that it get a fuller pump and better overall vascularity once I start using it with my WPI mid way through the workout into post workout

 

[dizdabiz]

Cheers for the info everyone,i think ill be going with wms!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[wearedbleedblue]

I have personally been using WMS for 2 months now and not noticed any extra "pump" or any better recovery from it. 48g with 28 WMI and 14g leucine immediately post workout. I came in to it expecting nothing spectacular and thats exactly what I got. I have used hydrolyzed rice and found that just as good, as was dextrose.

75g of carbs PWO is too much in my opinion. I use .5g carb, .3g pro and .15g leucine/kg of bodyweight. So obviously if you weigh enough, 75g of carb is enough for you but for most people on this board, I think 75 is too much.

 

[sethroberts]

75g dex sounds like muscletech research for CellTech to me unless you are taking an effective nutrient partitioner like P-Slin...

stuff dextrose - use naturally occurring sugars from vegetable juices like carrots and beets - choc full of glucose and sucrose, but more importantly Vitamins, Minerals and Antioxidants.

You obviously haven't looked at the evidence in the medical literature. Sucrose is a disaccharide consisting of one part glucose bound to one part fructose. Fructose (as well as any other sugar) must be converted to glucose before it is utilized for storage as glycogen. 75 g is not too much as long as you limit your simple sugars to only right after your workout. Of course it depends on how hard you work out and how much glycogen depletion you incur. The paper below is actually using 1 g per KG which is quite a bit more than the 75 g I suggested unless you are tiny.


4: J Appl Physiol. 1997 Jun;82(6):1882-8.Related Articles, Links
Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training.

Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Fowles J, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

We determined the effect of the timing of glucose supplementation on fractional muscle protein synthetic rate (FSR), urinary urea excretion, and whole body and myofibrillar protein degradation after resistance exercise. Eight healthy men performed unilateral knee extensor exercise (8 sets/approximately 10 repetitions/approximately 85% of 1 single maximal repetition). They received a carbohydrate (CHO) supplement (1 g/kg) or placebo (Pl) immediately (t = 0 h) and 1 h (t = +1 h) postexercise. FSR was determined for exercised (Ex) and control (Con) limbs by incremental L-[1-13C]leucine enrichment into the vastus lateralis over approximately 10 h postexercise. Insulin was greater (P < 0.01) at 0.5, 0.75, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, and 2 h, and glucose was greater (P < 0.05) at 0.5 and 0.75 h for CHO compared with Pl condition. FSR was 36.1% greater in the CHO/Ex leg than in the CHO/Con leg (P = not significant) and 6.3% greater in the Pl/Ex leg than in the Pl/Con leg (P = not significant). 3-Methylhistidine excretion was lower in the CHO (110.43 +/- 3.62 mumol/g creatinine) than P1 condition (120.14 +/- 5.82, P < 0.05) as was urinary urea nitrogen (8.60 +/- 0.66 vs. 12.28 +/- 1.84 g/g creatinine, P < 0.05). This suggests that CHO supplementation (1 g/kg) immediately and 1 h after resistance exercise can decrease myofibrillar protein breakdown and urinary urea excretion, resulting in a more positive body protein balance.

 

[wearedbleedblue]

You obviously haven't looked at the evidence in the medical literature. Sucrose is a disaccharide consisting of one part glucose bound to one part fructose. Fructose (as well as any other sugar) must be converted to glucose before it is utilized for storage as glycogen. 75 g is not too much as long as you limit your simple sugars to only right after your workout. Of course it depends on how hard you work out and how much glycogen depletion you incur. The paper below is actually using 1 g per KG which is quite a bit more than the 75 g I suggested unless you are tiny.


4: J Appl Physiol. 1997 Jun;82(6):1882-8.Related Articles, Links
Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training.

Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Fowles J, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

We determined the effect of the timing of glucose supplementation on fractional muscle protein synthetic rate (FSR), urinary urea excretion, and whole body and myofibrillar protein degradation after resistance exercise. Eight healthy men performed unilateral knee extensor exercise (8 sets/approximately 10 repetitions/approximately 85% of 1 single maximal repetition). They received a carbohydrate (CHO) supplement (1 g/kg) or placebo (Pl) immediately (t = 0 h) and 1 h (t = +1 h) postexercise. FSR was determined for exercised (Ex) and control (Con) limbs by incremental L-[1-13C]leucine enrichment into the vastus lateralis over approximately 10 h postexercise. Insulin was greater (P < 0.01) at 0.5, 0.75, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, and 2 h, and glucose was greater (P < 0.05) at 0.5 and 0.75 h for CHO compared with Pl condition. FSR was 36.1% greater in the CHO/Ex leg than in the CHO/Con leg (P = not significant) and 6.3% greater in the Pl/Ex leg than in the Pl/Con leg (P = not significant). 3-Methylhistidine excretion was lower in the CHO (110.43 +/- 3.62 mumol/g creatinine) than P1 condition (120.14 +/- 5.82, P < 0.05) as was urinary urea nitrogen (8.60 +/- 0.66 vs. 12.28 +/- 1.84 g/g creatinine, P < 0.05). This suggests that CHO supplementation (1 g/kg) immediately and 1 h after resistance exercise can decrease myofibrillar protein breakdown and urinary urea excretion, resulting in a more positive body protein balance.

Just because one study 11 years ago used 1g/kg doesn't mean thats the gold standard. There have been other studies like this one which much more closely mimics what people on this board use for a PWO shake:

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.
Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]

The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

If you read the full text you'll see they used 25g maltodextrin, 25 g glucose, 33g whey isolate, and 16.6g leucine per liter over a 6 hour period where they were consuming about 0.4L/hour. Thats for someone roughly 165lbs. The way we consume protein even say in a two hour period you'd consume a total of 50g carbs using their methods. I think you'd reach the point of diminishing returns if you were to use much more than that in an hour time.

 

[sethroberts]

Just because one study 11 years ago used 1g/kg doesn't mean thats the gold standard. There have been other studies like this one which much more closely mimics what people on this board use for a PWO shake:

Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.
Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]

The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

If you read the full text you'll see they used 25g maltodextrin, 25 g glucose, 33g whey isolate, and 16.6g leucine per liter over a 6 hour period where they were consuming about 0.4L/hour. Thats for someone roughly 165lbs. The way we consume protein even say in a two hour period you'd consume a total of 50g carbs using their methods. I think you'd reach the point of diminishing returns if you were to use much more than that in an hour time.

It depends on what your endpoint is. Are you looking for improved glycogen storage and recovery or increased protein synthesis. What is best for one will not necessarily be best for another. If you are looking for protein synthesis then this paper shows that protein synthesis was maximally stimulated with a dose of 20 gram of protein and that higher doses are actually detrimental. Oh and it is very recent.

1: Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Jan;89(1):161-8. Epub 2008 Dec 3. Links
Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men.Moore DR, Robinson MJ, Fry JL, Tang JE, Glover EI, Wilkinson SB, Prior T, Tarnopolsky MA, Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Canada.

BACKGROUND: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein. OBJECTIVES: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS. DESIGN: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine. RESULTS: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested. CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

 

[wearedbleedblue]

Honestly, what other reason would a bodybuilding forum have than protein synthesis? Are you serious?

 

[wearedbleedblue]

Also, they had a constant fusion of leucine which meant the body was pretty much saturated with it. Bad methods for the study to show anything worthwhile.

 

[wearedbleedblue]

And they used whole egg protein? How does this even remotely relate to the kind of shakes the average AM user consumes? most AM users consume some BCAA+whey isolate with some kind of carbs. Whole egg protein isn't anything close to this.

 

[jakellpet]

as I was saying, sounds like MuscleTech research - way out of date. A lot has changed since 1998.

The basis of my post was you are better off from a nutritional point of view in using vegetables high in sugars but low in fructose post WO - that way you get the added benefit of V,M,A's. Sucrose may not be an ideal sugar, however only constitutes a propotion of the total sugar content - the majority being glucose. (marginally). This is more the offset by the V,M,A content.

Reps to wearedbleedblue - a combo of his method and mine would generate good results. My simple CHO dosing is similar (w. vege juice), but I also have a -post -post WO shake with complex CHO - all regulated using P-Slin.

I still think that dosing 75g dex you're pancreas would rather find a new home in your arsehole than recieve such a constant pounding ;-)

 

[ax1]

karbolyn

 

[sethroberts]

Also, they had a constant fusion of leucine which meant the body was pretty much saturated with it. Bad methods for the study to show anything worthwhile.

The study you posted used a constant infusion of radiolabeled phenylalanine -- do you even know what that means? Infusing radiolabeled leucine is not the same as infusing plain old leucine. Radiolabeled leucine incorporation into skeletal muscle is a standard measure of skeletal muscle amino acid uptake. Also, they used egg protein because egg is complete and very bioavailable -- and the authors don't work for the supplement industry.

Building muscle is about more than elevating protein synthesis in the hour post workout. Glyogen and water make up between 60 and 90% of skeletal muscle tissue and expanding that pool also contributes significantly to skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

You would think an "expert" such as yourself would be open to a little discussion and debate but I guess Bro-science is etched in stone and your way is the only way, so have at it. I forgot that because everybody does it a certain way means that it must be the correct way and that is why we have nothing but olympians on the board.

Maybe you should try to publish your bro'science with a sample size of "the forum says so" and the results of "everybody does it".

 

[RenegadeRows]

Palatinose or the carb source in Golden FinisH

Waxymaize is a close second

 

[sethroberts]

as I was saying, sounds like MuscleTech research - way out of date. A lot has changed since 1998.

The basis of my post was you are better off from a nutritional point of view in using vegetables high in sugars but low in fructose post WO - that way you get the added benefit of V,M,A's. Sucrose may not be an ideal sugar, however only constitutes a propotion of the total sugar content - the majority being glucose. (marginally). This is more the offset by the V,M,A content.

Reps to wearedbleedblue - a combo of his method and mine would generate good results. My simple CHO dosing is similar (w. vege juice), but I also have a -post -post WO shake with complex CHO - all regulated using P-Slin.

I still think that dosing 75g dex you're pancreas would rather find a new home in your arsehole than recieve such a constant pounding ;-)

I guess a paper from Jan 2009 is way out of date for you? Using vegetables is great but post workout the research is clear that quick restoration of muscle glycogen results in better recovery and larger glycogen stores.

 

[sethroberts]

In any case, my point was that WMS has no scientific evidence behind it at all. Dextrose with some easily digestible protein and some added leucine has a lot of evidence for increasing recovery and promoting anabolism post workout. My approach doesn't differ much from yours wearedbleedblue, except in proportions and timing perhaps.

 

[wearedbleedblue]

In any case, my point was that WMS has no scientific evidence behind it at all. Dextrose with some easily digestible protein and some added leucine has a lot of evidence for increasing recovery and promoting anabolism post workout. My approach doesn't differ much from yours wearedbleedblue, except in proportions and timing perhaps.

And I was saying that there is no evidence on WMS from the start. I haven't used any "broscience" at all. I base my PWO on the article I posted. They use far less than a 75g spike of dextrose and thats also what I do. The reason I was so touchy about your science is that the articles you posted were far from the similar protein/BCAA compositions of the average AM user. Once you add in protein and leucine, the insulin spike at much lower levels of CHO can match and even exceed the spike from 75g of dextrose. And I do believe once you get to a certain saturation you reach the law of diminishing effects. I guess I'd rather come up a little short on the CHO side and not force any spillover in to adipose than to overshoot and store the excess.

I apologize if I came off like a jerk, wasn't intended.

 

[wearedbleedblue]

And just a minor tidbit, they use radiolabeling to assess protein oxidation, not uptake as far as I know. The thing I don't like about them using whole egg protein has more to do with the vagueness of it more than anything. If its dehydrated and freeze dried but not cooked, the eggs aren't very bioavailable. Whey, more specifically hydrolyzed whey, is often used in protein synthesis experiments because there is a lot of evidence dealing with the speed of incorporation. Whole egg protein has its place, but I don't agree with it in a PWO.

 

[sethroberts]

And just a minor tidbit, they use radiolabeling to assess protein oxidation, not uptake as far as I know. The thing I don't like about them using whole egg protein has more to do with the vagueness of it more than anything. If its dehydrated and freeze dried but not cooked, the eggs aren't very bioavailable. Whey, more specifically hydrolyzed whey, is often used in protein synthesis experiments because there is a lot of evidence dealing with the speed of incorporation. Whole egg protein has its place, but I don't agree with it in a PWO.

That's cool. Radiolabeled pulse tracer studies are used to show amino acid uptake and release from skeletal muscles so that you can determine fractional synthesis rate or whole body protein kinetics.