Unacceptable: Why something needs to be done.

LakeMountD

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As I have continued to pursue my career in the medical field I studied more and more into the realm of analytical chemistry and the quality of the supplements that we take. I am writing this because I feel the entire supplement industry needs an overhaul. I am not implicating any particular company, nor am I saying that IBE's practices are on part with what my goal within the industry is set to. I feel that there has been a potent disregard for public health among all members of the supplement industry. Many companies are either neglecting proper analytical testing of their dietary supplements, trusting the certificate of analysis that originates from the suppler, use labs that cannot perform the correct analysis, or attempt to use in house methods of analytical testing. Although there are advantages and disadvantages to some of these, it must be noted that the negative effects far outweigh the positive effects here. In this respect I sort of feel like Jerry Maguire in that I could possibly black ball myself in the supplement industry among other companies, but at this point I am not concerned, I am more concerned with the health of not only my friends and fellow board members, but myself and my family as well who take health supplements on a regular basis.

With that being said lets look at the problems we are currently facing. In order to create a larger profit many new startup companies are neglecting proper analytical testing and trusting the C of A's of their suppliers. This is a monumental miscalculation since a C of A, especially one originating from a foreign country, can be easily faked or masked. Suppliers should not be trusted in the beginning nor should they be trusted at any point throughout the business relationship. They are looking for profit just as you are and they can just as easily turn on you. A new problem to even the pharmaceutical industry is masking. Masking has shown up in the most recent Heparin scare, in which foreign suppliers were using sub par ingredients and then masking what they had in it to make it look as though it contained the proper ingredient. You can also easily mask substances that are in small quantities by providing something similar in a larger quantities.

The second problem right now is companies are using any old Joe Chemistry lab to perform their testing. You should do your research before choosing companies to perform analytical testing. Yes, it is not difficult to inject a sample into a GCMS and watch the output on the screen, heck anyone can really do it. Most people can also say, "hey that looks like this" in the reference library. The problem comes in when compounds do not contain a known analytical standard. NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS FRAGMENTATION CAN RARELY BE PREDICTED. I don't care how good of a chemist you are but fragmentation predictions can only be done with very complex computing operations and are not always correct. Further testing needs to be conducted to ensure that what you think you are buying is what you actually got. Without making things too personal we conducted a myriad of tests on Epistane over a year ago to ensure the proper ingredient. Many labs don't even us a liquid chromatography. I have seen labs pass a sample and say that it 100% meets label claims, yet two paragraphs before state that there is no standard available and that they assume the retention time and fragmentation pattern is correct.

Lastly, many companies are using in house testing. There is nothing wrong here with the fact that if a company can afford the proper equipment it can help to do in house testing. This is difficult however, when a good mass spectrometer will cost around $250,000-500,000 with pharmaceutical grade machines costing around $1 million. GC and LC machines are around $100,000 depending on the resolution. Most labs utilize a gas chromatogram since most compounds run just fine on a GC. The elution is fast and results are obtained rapidly. However, there are criteria for GC, the most important being that the compound is volatile and heat stable. Many mistakes are made when injecting samples to ensure that it is indeed volatile and heat stable. Temperature programming is typically used in a GC and the temperature can well exceed twice the boiling point of water and you can imagine what that can do to some molecules. Liquid chromatography is more expensive and very few labs use it, including many labs that people outsource.

Now you might be wondering, why the heck is LMD giving us a damn chemistry lesson, we don't care! The reason is that the industry is in worse shape than you might think and I am attempting to reform it, slowly if necessary. If you don't think that the things you are putting in your body are a big concern then disregard this message. However, if you are truly concerned about your health and are curious about what truly could be contained in what you are taking then press forward. I have many studies on this but lets take a look at one of the most interesting.


Adulterants in Asian Patent Medicines

To the Editor: Asian patent medicines are one component of what are called traditional Chinese medicines. Asian patent medicines comprise multiple products, including herbs, plants, animal parts, and minerals, which are formulated into tablets, pills, or liquids for ease of use. They are widely available in herbal stores and have gained acceptance by the American public as a form of alternative medicine. However, many patent medicines manufactured in Asian countries contain toxic ingredients, such as heavy metals, as well as prescription drugs or unapproved ingredients that may or may not be identified on the label.1,2 Some have caused serious illness in unsuspecting consumers.3,4

The California Department of Health Services, Food and Drug Branch, initiated a study to screen imported Asian patent medicines for undeclared pharmaceuticals and heavy-metal contamination, using gas chromatography–mass spectrometry and atomic-absorption methods. Our objectives were to establish a computer data base for these products; educate the public, the herbal industry, and the medical community about the potential danger of Asian patent medicines; and provide objective information about toxicity.

Of 260 Asian patent medicines that have been collected from California retail herbal stores, 14 had labels that declared pharmaceutical ingredients, and 3 had insufficient sample amounts. Of the remaining 243 products, 17 (7 percent) contained undeclared pharmaceuticals. The most common undeclared ingredients were ephedrine, chlorpheniramine, methyltestosterone, and phenacetin. A total of 251 products were analyzed for lead, arsenic, and mercury; 9 other samples, including the 3 noted above, were insufficient for this analysis. Twenty-four products contained lead in a quantity of at least 10 parts per million (ppm) (range, 10 to 319; median, 29.8; mean, 54.9). Thirty-six products contained arsenic (range, 20.4 to 114,000 ppm; median, 180.5; mean, 14,553). Thirty-five products contained mercury (range, 22.4 to 5070 ppm; median, 329; mean, 1046); 2 of the 35 had labels that identified only pharmaceutical ingredients. The United States Pharmacopoeia limits heavy metals in most oral pharmaceuticals to 30 ppm, with lower limits for lead, arsenic, and mercury.

Of the 260 products we investigated, at least 83 (32 percent) contained undeclared pharmaceuticals or heavy metals, and 23 had more than one adulterant. The remaining products, which contained no detectable adulterants, cannot be assumed to be safe and free of toxic ingredients, in view of their batch-to-batch inconsistency, as well as limitations in our detection methods.


Richard J. Ko, Pharm.D., Ph.D.
California Department of Health Services
Sacramento, CA 94234-7320


Now I don't know about you but this absolutely startled me when I first read it. The sad thing is there is many like it. Lets look at what was actually stated. It states that many herbal compounds contained methyl testosterone! Before you go thinking that it is a plus, think about whether this was in your PCT product and how well that could have helped. One of the most startling values was one of the compounds contained arsenic concentrations of 114,000 ppm!!!!!! Arsenic is often used as a tool for murdering someone as it is very hard to detect the cause of death when the culprit is arsenic and it doesn't take all that much and is tasteless. The FDA does not allow arsenic above I believe 10 ppm. That means they had concentrations of arsenic 11,400x higher than what the FDA allows! It means you would have to take 11,400x more of an FDA monitored supplement to get the same amount of arsenic as in one of these bottles. The next value is mercury having over 5000 ppm of mercury. People are concerned with tuna fish in the can which has less than 30 yet some of these had 5000.

So what do I propose?

-Standardized testing practices. We need to ensure that ALL companies are using a US based independent lab for testing.
-Testing of heavy metals. This is something that VERY few people do and it is something that cannot be overlooked. I am more concerned about heavy metals than I am methyltestosterone. Heavy metals must be tested using atomic spectroscopy and not molecular spectroscopy, which everyone typically uses. I am not saying that all batches need to be tested but random tests of at least 25% of your stock should be made.
-The posting of C of A's from US based independent labs on their website so that batch numbers can be matched to analysis.
-Proper testing of compounds that lack analytical standards. This will be the hardest and last thing to probably come to light but is of importance to mention.

I am not saying that IBE currently does all of these things, but I promise you I am working towards it. I am trying to get all of our C of A's on our website possibly within the week or the month, depending on how well the webmasters work with me. I want to try and see others to follow in IBE's footsteps (some have already done so and I give them credit). I also would like to see you as the consumer push for these things. Remember it is YOUR health not theirs that can be affected and the direct effect could be very detrimental, especially later in life since heavy metals could be a concern.

Let me know how everyone feels about this. Thoughts, concerns, and suggestions. Together we can make the supplement industry safer and make the health of everyone better.
 
DAdams91982

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Well said my friend. You are a lot more eloquent than I. And I guess knowing chemistry helps too. :D

Adams
 
just93

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i agree with you, this is a serious problem that we face, it needs to be dealt with or it will get worse! good post, we needed it!!
 
LakeMountD

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i agree with you, this is a serious problem that we face, it needs to be dealt with or it will get worse! good post, we needed it!!
Thanks, try to get this out to as many people as possible, the more that read it the easier the problem can be fixed. Knowledge is power.
 

peteypab

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Nice, glad to see someones taking the time to do this.
 
Nabisco

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The dangers of an un-regulated industry. When companies are not held accountable, they do what is necessary for that all important bottom line.
 
HUGEbanks

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Amazing info my friend. This is something EVERYONE needs to read over and over.
 
just93

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we need more people, spread the word guys..!
 
GotTest

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I am glad to see a comprehensive "soap box" of the BIGGEST problem with supplements today. Being a chemist myself, I analyze ALL my PH's, AI's, and any other supplement that I can utilize the GC/MS for.
LMD is making an important point to anyone using PH's, herbals, and yes even vitamins. I have always been anti-FDA for various reasons, but I have seen with my own eyes the absolute poisoning of the supplement market with MISLABELING.

The problem comes in when compounds do not contain a known analytical standard.
Agreed. If I'm given an unknown PH and don't have a spectra/standard for comparison, it is EXTREMELY difficult to decifer. HOWEVER...If I'm given a substance and they tell me it's compound A and it ends up to be compound B, which has a usable known spectra, then I can only say it is NOT compound A. Which has happened to me on one occassion.

Many labs don't even us a liquid chromatography. I have seen labs pass a sample and say that it 100% meets label claims, yet two paragraphs before state that there is no standard available and that they assume the retention time and fragmentation pattern is correct.
HPLC/MS is great for thermally unstable compounds. The peaks are resolved beautifully and a usable spectra can be obtained. HPLC is an absolute MUST HAVE for analyzing plant extracts!

But don't throw GC/MS out just yet...heat can be your friend :D
The thermal instability of a compound can actually help you identify a substance, because it IS thermally unstable.
If a sample is thermally unstable a typical characteristic are "breakdown" peaks. Basically the sample is falling apart under heat and you get "part" of the target compound. This is actually a reproducible characteristic of MOST of your heat sensitive compounds,which produces UNIQUE and REPRODUCIBLE spectra.
Unique and reproducible is what makes Mass spectrometry a confirmatory test to IDENTIFY a compound.

Many mistakes are made when injecting samples to ensure that it is indeed volatile and heat stable.
Don't quite follow you on the "mistakes" part here.
Are you talking an unknown?

Temperature programming is typically used in a GC and the temperature can well exceed twice the boiling point of water and you can imagine what that can do to some molecules.
LMD, this is the typical "comparing apples to oranges" senario..:lol:
Water has a molecular weight of 18, Boldenone undec has a molecular weight of 452... of course you would need a higher temperature to vaporize.

Great write up man! :thumbsup:
I just couldn't resist some clarification. I've been working with GC/MS for over 10 years now, so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in!
 
LakeMountD

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I am glad to see a comprehensive "soap box" of the BIGGEST problem with supplements today. Being a chemist myself, I analyze ALL my PH's, AI's, and any other supplement that I can utilize the GC/MS for.
LMD is making an important point to anyone using PH's, herbals, and yes even vitamins. I have always been anti-FDA for various reasons, but I have seen with my own eyes the absolute poisoning of the supplement market with MISLABELING.


Agreed. If I'm given an unknown PH and don't have a spectra/standard for comparison, it is EXTREMELY difficult to decifer. HOWEVER...If I'm given a substance and they tell me it's compound A and it ends up to be compound B, which has a usable known spectra, then I can only say it is NOT compound A. Which has happened to me on one occassion.


HPLC/MS is great for thermally unstable compounds. The peaks are resolved beautifully and a usable spectra can be obtained. HPLC is an absolute MUST HAVE for analyzing plant extracts!

But don't throw GC/MS out just yet...heat can be your friend :D
The thermal instability of a compound can actually help you identify a substance, because it IS thermally unstable.
If a sample is thermally unstable a typical characteristic are "breakdown" peaks. Basically the sample is falling apart under heat and you get "part" of the target compound. This is actually a reproducible characteristic of MOST of your heat sensitive compounds,which produces UNIQUE and REPRODUCIBLE spectra.
Unique and reproducible is what makes Mass spectrometry a confirmatory test to IDENTIFY a compound.


Don't quite follow you on the "mistakes" part here.
Are you talking an unknown?


LMD, this is the typical "comparing apples to oranges" senario..:lol:
Water has a molecular weight of 18, Boldenone undec has a molecular weight of 452... of course you would need a higher temperature to vaporize.

Great write up man! :thumbsup:
I just couldn't resist some clarification. I've been working with GC/MS for over 10 years now, so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in!
Haha I am a chemist myself and working towards my doctor of pharmacy currently. I sort of had to dummy some of it down to the best of my ability. I usually go into more detail than necessary as I feel that I HAVE TO but I did my best. I wasn't giving a lesson in analytical as much as I was trying to get the point across that things need to change. I definitely don't throw GC out, it is a tool that I use more so than LC.

When referring to mistakes, I mean that some people, and I won't name names, have injected samples in the past and had them fragment in the injection port. If a functional group is not very thermally stable and gets injected into a high temperature injection port you can get some interesting results. They were expecting fragmentation to look like A and it ended up looking like B because they did not have an LC to confirm their results with. We tend to go through a flow chart if things don't look right when we first get them. If it doesn't come out as predicted on the GC we move to LC and see if we can't find the artifact.

All in all again I am trying to push the point across that the industry needs to be changed. The chemistry I can leave to the books and the universities :).

As a side note I must say that I got the privilege to work with some amazing equipment during my years as a chemistry student. I was fortunate enough to work with Fourier transform ion cyclotron resonance mass spectroscopy, which in itself is absolutely amazing technology and will blow your mind when you look at how it is actually done. The doctor that I was fortunate enough to work around was the first to used the Fourier Transform with MS and was a brilliant chemist. The other nice thing was our lab had the largest magnet in the world, weighing 30,000 lbs. You can imagine the resolution! It brought mass spectroscopy to the range of 10,000th of an AMU ;).
 
GotTest

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When referring to mistakes, I mean that some people, and I won't name names, have injected samples in the past and had them fragment in the injection port. If a functional group is not very thermally stable and gets injected into a high temperature injection port you can get some interesting results. They were expecting fragmentation to look like A and it ended up looking like B because they did not have an LC to confirm their results with.
Injection port is where most breakdown occurs. There are a couple compounds we encounter that do the same thing, but we always back it up with another test like UV or IR and use the combination of both to reach conclusion. Always helps to have a standard too.

All in all again I am trying to push the point across that the industry needs to be changed. The chemistry I can leave to the books and the universities :).
Amen brother.
Just tested a PH last month that did not have listed ingredient. Thing is the 2 ingredients weren't even a good stack!:wtf:

As a side note I must say that I got the privilege to work with some amazing equipment during my years as a chemistry student. I was fortunate enough to work with Fourier transform ion cyclotron resonance mass spectroscopy, which in itself is absolutely amazing technology and will blow your mind when you look at how it is actually done. The doctor that I was fortunate enough to work around was the first to used the Fourier Transform with MS and was a brilliant chemist. The other nice thing was our lab had the largest magnet in the world, weighing 30,000 lbs. You can imagine the resolution! It brought mass spectroscopy to the range of 10,000th of an AMU ;).
You are one lucky dude to have access to that sort of instrumentation. The tuition must be through the roof! :)
 
Grunt76

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I know it is a long read but well worth it.
Absolutely.

Something MUST be done. And seriously, the FDA will not do a GOOD job if they end up having it. Best the supplement industry as a whole.
 
just93

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agreed FDA will want something out of it, so best not to leave it to them!
 

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Good read. I'm glad to see that IBE is going down the right track.
 
nunes

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I agree completely with you lake , I bet a lot of things we take are **** from china, and everything got worst after the last time that a lot of china labs were busted , I bet a lot of bunk stuff is on the market nowadays.
I once made a thread on bb.com warning about this and guess what, people (a great majority were companies reps) joke with it, like I was some crazy alarmist.
Man is like rowing against the waves, a lot of companies don't care about the costumer , they just want to sell their ****.
I`m with you in this crusade
 
LakeMountD

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I agree completely with you lake , I bet a lot of things we take are **** from china, and everything got worst after the last time that a lot of china labs were busted , I bet a lot of bunk stuff is on the market nowadays.
I once made a thread on bb.com warning about this and guess what, people (a great majority were companies reps) joke with it, like I was some crazy alarmist.
Man is like rowing against the waves, a lot of companies don't care about the costumer , they just want to sell their ****.
I`m with you in this crusade
Yeah I will pick the right time to go to bb.com with it but not right now. In the meantime my goal is to make make this thread have more views than some of these other supplement threads. If a steroid thread has 250,000 views and this has 250 then I have failed.
 
just93

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keep em coming guys, we need you, ill even rep people until i run out, not that giving rep is a big deal its the thought that counts:thumbsup:
 
Silver3CSRT8

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Glad I went with IBE's version of Epistane now. Great article even though I didn't understand all of it. :)
 
LakeMountD

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Glad I went with IBE's version of Epistane now. Great article even though I didn't understand all of it. :)
Thats okay, I am just presenting a problem. If you don't understand anything else at least understand the study of the over 250 supplements that were tested by the New England Journal of Medicine above.
 

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Fortunately, the majority of supplements I've ingested have been from reliable sources. There is an element of trust involved. Good Professional Chemists generally do not want to create a crap product. On the other hand, how do we know if they are professionally made products?
 

pushinweightw

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Great thread, as a supp store manager this ways on my mind all the time. I just try to carry quality products to my knowledge and stay away from shaddy companies as best I can.
 
just93

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thats a good supplement store manager, i hate GNC they have not a clue what they are talking about, sorry to get side tracked, TELL US MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK EVERY ONE OUT THERE, WE NEED YOU!!! lol thanks for the thought guys keep em coming
 
RobInKuwait

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Lake,

Maybe the thing to do would be find other supplement companies that will also agree to do the same stringent tests that you are doing. Eventually, if enough companies get on board, you could call yourselves the "quality supplements alliance" or something and ensure that everyone in the alliance uses the same testing standards on their products. At that point consumers would know they're only getting the highest quality supps when they buy from "alliance" companies. It could even be a selling point to buy those supps at that point, which could help offset the cost increase due to the testing.
 

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Epistane

I tried epistane recently and thought it worked, not sure if it was placebo or not, but after reading this i feel confident that its a good product.
 
poopypants

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This has always been in the baack of my mind as I purchase nearly 75% of my supps in bulk and constantly are checking COA's that are obviously from a supplier and not a scondary test done by the seller themself and worried that it may just be fudged..... especially since they generally ALL come from china or india and what do they care about a ton of powder being ingested by americans if they get paid the same just for presenting a piece of paper they say is accurate.

This is a great eye opener Lake and again confirms the reason why Im so proud to be associated with you guys... always pushing the standard. Ill be sure to spread the word on this one.
 
eatingisfun

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I've said this as well at least once but like most, not taken all that seriously. I know some companies bring in protein powder and other things from China which worries me because they don't test it themselves as far as I know. I certainly don't have the resources to test all the stuff I take and these companies should be doing it and posting this information freely on their website. I don't want your manufacturer/supplier COA because that's not worth the paper it's not printed on. Most companies' employees take their own products and have a fairly loyal following but I want to see them step up and prove to us this stuff is all tested.

And this should not just be an initial test, it should be tested fairly regularly because there have been probably more incidents than you can count where the manufacturer/supplier changes something from the original batch without telling anyone.

Lead paint on children's toys, other products containing steroids etc.. It's all ridiculous that this stuff gets pushed out to consumers and no one caught it until it's too late.
 
poopypants

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Lake,

Maybe the thing to do would be find other supplement companies that will also agree to do the same stringent tests that you are doing. Eventually, if enough companies get on board, you could call yourselves the "quality supplements alliance" or something and ensure that everyone in the alliance uses the same testing standards on their products. At that point consumers would know they're only getting the highest quality supps when they buy from "alliance" companies. It could even be a selling point to buy those supps at that point, which could help offset the cost increase due to the testing.
:goodpost:This I think would be the ideal goal. :thumbsup:
 
just93

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Lake,

Maybe the thing to do would be find other supplement companies that will also agree to do the same stringent tests that you are doing. Eventually, if enough companies get on board, you could call yourselves the "quality supplements alliance" or something and ensure that everyone in the alliance uses the same testing standards on their products. At that point consumers would know they're only getting the highest quality supps when they buy from "alliance" companies. It could even be a selling point to buy those supps at that point, which could help offset the cost increase due to the testing.
Great idea!!! we must find more people, talk to Iforce reps on hear the are chill people especially peteypab!! he could throw a few words in, the are now becoming my fav. company!!
 
Grunt76

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Lake,

Maybe the thing to do would be find other supplement companies that will also agree to do the same stringent tests that you are doing. Eventually, if enough companies get on board, you could call yourselves the "quality supplements alliance" or something and ensure that everyone in the alliance uses the same testing standards on their products. At that point consumers would know they're only getting the highest quality supps when they buy from "alliance" companies. It could even be a selling point to buy those supps at that point, which could help offset the cost increase due to the testing.
That's exactly what I had in mind. Good post. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
BB12

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excellent read!
 
eatingisfun

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Fortunately, the majority of supplements I've ingested have been from reliable sources. There is an element of trust involved. Good Professional Chemists generally do not want to create a crap product. On the other hand, how do we know if they are professionally made products?
You would think that you could go with a big brand name from the USA and FDA approved but you still can't be sure that it's not contaminated. I was watching a story on Dateline or 20/20 or something a while back and they were testing big name brands of multivitamins. Most of them still source all their materials from outside the country. For example the only place that makes synthetic vitamin C is in New Zealand or something. It sounds crazy but that's what they said.

Well anyways, the findings are surprising that many of the big brand vitamins were contaminated with heavy metals and other things you don't want to be ingesting. Yes, even the huge companies don't bother to test their stuff.
 
LakeMountD

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Don't worry behind the scenes I plan to move this idea around to various companies. However, I have an order in which I like to do things. It is only fair to let these companies have a chance to respond and get their stuff together. This isn't something that can occur overnight and it wouldn't be fair to say "well IBE is about ready to have all of this done and you aren't" because it takes preparation and I understand that. If I begin to notice there are companies not taking to it and don't seem to want to do anything about it I will talk to them privately. If they still resist then you bring it public again and allow the public to decide for themselves whether or not they should comply. This is indeed a democratic nation and we should not impose a will on anyone unless the majority feel it so. If we don't do something soon the FDA WILL step in and it will not be pretty. Your supplements will cost a quarter more and many companies will not be able to break even.
 
SilentBob187

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Thanks LMD.
 
LatSpread

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I certainly agree it would be nice to actually be sure what I buy is what I receive rather than mislabeled pixie dust and or rice flour. Solid post OP, repped.

I feel that either supp companies will self regulate themselves or the FDA will actually ban all these supps like they have been threatening. It's one or the other and I sure hope the FDA doesn't step in.
 
TimberLakers

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Sometimes I think I'm a pretty smart guy.... Then I read two Chemists chatting with one another and I might as well be trying to read War and Peace in Japanese.

Good info - we can all hope that some oversight can be administered in the arena without robbing us of our freedom to ingest supplements.
 
dragonfly

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You would think that you could go with a big brand name from the USA and FDA approved but you still can't be sure that it's not contaminated.
FDA approved aspartame. Aspartame breaks down into the following chemicals: methanol, aspartic acid, phenylalanine, aspartylphenylalanine diketopiperazine (DKP), beta-aspartame.
The methanol is absorbed and converted to formaldehyde in the body.
Do I need to say more ? FDA approval ?! :toilet:

We the consumers, need to get the message across to supp companies, I'm sure more than enough people on this board would rather buy from companies that employ rigorous testing. Most of us spend way too much on supplements, you don't want to pay too much for something that a) doesn't work and/or b) is toxic; hell you wouldn't even want it even it was free !! Great post, the more people read it, the more aware they will be of the scams&scum that is around us :lol:
 
LatSpread

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FDA approved aspartame. Aspartame breaks down into the following chemicals: methanol, aspartic acid, phenylalanine, aspartylphenylalanine diketopiperazine (DKP), beta-aspartame.
The methanol is absorbed and converted to formaldehyde in the body.
Do I need to say more ? FDA approval ?! :toilet:

We the consumers, need to get the message across to supp companies, I'm sure more than enough people on this board would rather buy from companies that employ rigorous testing. Most of us spend way too much on supplements, you don't want to pay too much for something that a) doesn't work and/or b) is toxic; hell you wouldn't even want it even it was free !! Great post, the more people read it, the more aware they will be of the scams&scum that is around us :lol:
lmao, this is exactly why we gotta fix the industry before the FDA steps in.

Good post
 

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Noble proposal but voluntary compliance in this industry, haha, nice pipe dream. The less we are then hampered by these idealistic notions, the better. The conscious and educated consume compromises a miniscule fraction of the consumer base. As such they wield little power or influence. Look at certain forum members who allied to boycott particular companies and the general lack of impact it's had on sales.

If products were as tainted as some would have you believe clearly some individuals would show tell tale signs. Or perhaps manufacturer's do test thoroughly and it's just more scaremongering induced by certain organizations to boost their business. Fortunately, we have yet to hear of any such toxicity occurrences though it is very likely that only such these occurrences will spur action either via the industry itself or more likely through regulation.
 
DAdams91982

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it's just more scaremongering induced by certain organizations to boost their business. Fortunately, we have yet to hear of any such toxicity occurrences though it is very likely that only such these occurrences will spur action either via the industry itself or more likely through regulation.

I am pretty sure Lake said the company he works for isnt above this right now. In fact I think he admitted to needing to work on that.

If contamination did not happen in our glorious supps... how is it that gyno didnt come up with superdrol till no name companies started kicking out clones? Or even the toxic side effects that came with supredrol... hell DS even had blood work to show how minimal it was on the liver when they released it. There are reports of such occurrences.

Adams
 
delsolrob

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Great read...thanks LMD!

those that are educated on the topic will undoubtedly choose the more reliable brands...that's why we all love CEL; they show us the lab reports for their products.
(although I don't think they will provide this kind of detail)
 

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Aren't all supplement manufacturers moving to cGMP facilities regardless?
 
Grunt76

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Noble proposal but voluntary compliance in this industry, haha, nice pipe dream. The less we are then hampered by these idealistic notions, the better. The conscious and educated consume compromises a miniscule fraction of the consumer base. As such they wield little power or influence. Look at certain forum members who allied to boycott particular companies and the general lack of impact it's had on sales.

If products were as tainted as some would have you believe clearly some individuals would show tell tale signs. Or perhaps manufacturer's do test thoroughly and it's just more scaremongering induced by certain organizations to boost their business. Fortunately, we have yet to hear of any such toxicity occurrences though it is very likely that only such these occurrences will spur action either via the industry itself or more likely through regulation.
Actually many contaminants need to build over time in order to show toxicity. For example mercury, everything is fine until you reach a certain level and then you are FUC**D. Then what?

So it clearly isn't as simple as "I took this thing and I felt ill". If only it were.
 
eatingisfun

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Noble proposal but voluntary compliance in this industry, haha, nice pipe dream. The less we are then hampered by these idealistic notions, the better. The conscious and educated consume compromises a miniscule fraction of the consumer base. As such they wield little power or influence. Look at certain forum members who allied to boycott particular companies and the general lack of impact it's had on sales.

If products were as tainted as some would have you believe clearly some individuals would show tell tale signs. Or perhaps manufacturer's do test thoroughly and it's just more scaremongering induced by certain organizations to boost their business. Fortunately, we have yet to hear of any such toxicity occurrences though it is very likely that only such these occurrences will spur action either via the industry itself or more likely through regulation.
If you think it's just fear mongering, read this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16655168/wid/11915773

While they didn't find a huge number of problems with contamination, of 21 brands of multivitamins, only 10 met the label claims or satisfied quality standards.

Also, I can bet most people here don't really trust the FDA to be right about everything, but the vast majority of the uneducated population does and they believe that if it's FDA approved then it must be OK.
 
strategicmove

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Awesome effort, LMD! :thumbsup: China's growing grip on the supplement industry is not necessarily a good thing! The scrutiny of the quality of the ingredients (some) companies use should be several notches more rigorous...
 
RobInKuwait

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Noble proposal but voluntary compliance in this industry, haha, nice pipe dream. The less we are then hampered by these idealistic notions, the better. The conscious and educated consume compromises a miniscule fraction of the consumer base. As such they wield little power or influence. Look at certain forum members who allied to boycott particular companies and the general lack of impact it's had on sales.
With an issue as serious as tainted supplements, if some companies started testing their products for contaminants, people would start to expect that from all companies.

Can you imagine a new product coming out on a board, and someone asking on a thread, "Have you conducted testing to X standard to ensure the purity of the product?" That is one question you want to answer "YES!" to.
 

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