The icariin log
- 07-15-2009, 11:35 AM
The icariin log
Log in progress.
I've ploughed through a series of test boosters. The one thing that captures my attention is icariin. Icariin is just a bit too big for a TD, but its potency against its preparation and source are of real interest.
Morning afternoon stack:
Vit C 1g (am + pm)
Chromium 200mg (am + pm)
Bovine adrenal (am + pm)
Liver cap (2 caps am) [Universal]
Animal Pak equivalent (Dr. Wilson's dynamite) - 1 scoop
Ibedone (sp) 100mg
Citrulate malate 500mg
Mega B-vits and/or GGG (a B1/B2 supplement)
Zinc + copper
REDuction pm [Controlled labs]
PowerFull (2 caps at present)
- 07-15-2009, 12:02 PM
Weeks schedule starting tomorrow (well I've been shifting test boosters for some time)..
Diet - shredding, too much body fat:
Rye bread (v. low GI) 130 = 260 Cal.
OR 100g oatmeal biscuits = 421 Cal (thats high).
1) 200g chicken = 370 calories; or 100g sardines/fish = , 70g protein
2) 2 eggs (100 calories) / protein shake (30g) / or plain yogurt. = 25g protein
3) 30g nuts = 850 calories; 6g protein
4) Seeds = yet to work out approx. 5g protein
Protein total 100g / day (low)
200g berries (blackberries, raspberries, blueberries) or 200g veg (e.g. french beans/ courgette / cabbage ).
2 litres supplemented with Purple Wraath (1 scoop), GlycoGrow (1 scoop), White flood (1 scoop), EAA.
Ratio 1:2:0.5 carbs to protein to veg. Ideally this should be 1:1:2
Overall: Calories - around 2000
Green tea intake - 1 cup per day.
Motivation ... a girl. Not plural, just one.
Background: my near-miss marriage collapsed.
Gym - My technical understanding limited - but I'm learning!
I've my first professional programme .. in a word boring.
* Alternate upper and lower body, with lots of cardio and abs.
* I wanted heavy upper. Anyway its their job so I'll not question it.
* They wanted me to swim!
* I'll use push ups and bicep curls as the marker of progress for now - when I am not injuryed/
* Reviewed in 2 week.
- 07-15-2009, 12:10 PM
Measurement 1 105 kilos .. 231lbs
Measurement 2 96 kilos .. . . . . . . . . I think the gym scales are wrong
Measurement 1... 19% body fat - well not as bad as my first read. Its a bit high.
Measurement 2... 22% body fat - *blush* a gym instructor did this one.
... target 15% body fat
Supplements week 1
Activate Xtreme 10 caps spread across the day
............Comment: this is a great test booster.
White Blood 8 caps spread across the day
.........Work prod* .. Time gym ... Energy in gym . Endurance .…. Quantity
Day 1 ....... 0.2 .............1.......…..…..90% …..............Good…...…. do tomorrow
Day 2 ....... 0.4 ..........….1.......…..…..80%. ...........……Good....….…….20+2 0 ^
Day 3.....................……..0….. ......………………………………….pulled pec
Day 4.....................……..1……… …………………….25 x4 ^ (pulled pec aggravated)
Day 5 - 8......1...............1……………… ……………......injury:cardio and lower work only
* measured in manuscripts completed
^ push ups are the measure ... Chest press only at the moment (disallowed bench press for now )
& I need help with gym instructor or a personal trainer to get around this pulled pec.
Note I don't know gym but I do know nootropics. I'm assessing this stuff as if it were a nootropic. However a nootropic normally generates fast tolerance - so a real test effect will last.
Day 1 - energy levels are high, but like all supps when I first take it - it really kicked, really kicked hard, but I still feel this test booster is giving me all day drive.
Day 2 - took 3 Blue Ups in succession - don't do it! 6.5 mg yohimbine per 2 caps = around 10 mg yohimbine. Yohimbe (not yohimbine HCl) has laxative sides for me in any case. It’s a strong stim – okay for getting up in the morning but that’s about it for me.
Day 2ii - Activate Xtreme stuff is still kicking hard. At a guess I'd say this ain't nootropic because I get tolerance very quickly to just about anything. Lets see what its like on Day7
Day 3 No gym. Pulled pec muscle. ActivaTE is still kicking strongly, but it has a short half life – quick effect seems to drop out of the system quickly.
Day 4 No gym. Stayed clean of ActivaTE and took 14 (yep 15) of iForces Max Out. No aggression/drive, an apparent nootropic effect, possibly feel a little stronger. Consdering I’d just used 15% of the entire bottle I really didn’t feel much. Used T911 x3 support. I think this kicked in later in the day.
Injury Pulled pec seemed to heal quickly – that’s a good sign because it stung at first –I need some Super Cissus to try and clear it quickly. Annoying – I hit the gym too hard. I don’t want a 1 week lay-off for upper body L
Day 5 . Back on 10 ActivaTE per day. Drive is back again. It’s the product driving this. No upper body L work ‘cause of injury.
Day 6 The injury doesn't look good. I think I ripped the intercostal muscles on back extentions. I've got Cissus on order to try and clear it - its really hammering all abs and upper work.
Day 6ii ActivaTE goes from strength to strength. Continued and sustained "drive", energy levels picking up considerable. It looks like the Rhodiola is kicking in on my adrenals - hence the energy boost. The 'drive' keys within a few hours of taking it. This is not a nootropic effect.
Day 6iii Yesterday and today I combined with a low dose SERM (a natural SERM of course) to check it out before a cycle. The combination of potent AI and ActivaTE makes it the strongest supplement I've taken - viz. stronger than the vast majority of nootropics. Took 2 coffees the caffeine effect seemed strong - like I'm swamped in caffeine (and thats a lot less caffeine than I use to be swamped with) and to get any effect from coffee is astounding.
1. Divanil is freeing up test
2. AI is producing more test
3. Divanil is freeing up the extra test produced from the AI
4. Rhodiola is an adaptogen for increasing and moderating adrenal function. It doesn't kick in quickly but I appear to be responding very well to it.
I've loads of adaptogens and never really thought much to any of them.
Day 7 . No tolerance -- going strong.
Day 8 . All I can say on 'feel factor' is this stuff is potent. It has a dramtic effect on me in terms of focus and drive. For me this stuff is about right - I respond to it well.
Quick feel for Activate Xtreme - gives a constant underlying drive and increased focus. Its a real effect.
I'll shift to MassFX from tomorrow and what has emerged is I need to have test levels checked and be more coordinated in my approach to test boosters.
07-16-2009, 06:42 PM
Diesel Test Hardcore has a 40% icarrin extract in it plus all the other goodies. You might want to give it a try.
07-16-2009, 10:13 PM
Program will be:
Week1 ActivaTE Xtreme (10 caps / day), + Blue Gene (3 caps/day)
Week2 Mass FX [6 caps per day], test icariin TD + Blue Gene (3 caps/day)
Week3 Mass FX + Hyperdrol + icariin tincture
Week4 Mass FX + Hyperdrol + icariin50
Week5 DHT (work up to 10 per day) + Blue Gene (3 caps/day)
Week6 DHT + icariin TD (home made or pre-made)
Week7 DHT + icariin tincture/veg caps whatever stronger
Week8 pSARN + its AI + Blue Gene (3 caps/day)
Run a 5 week cycle. Bulk at 200g protein per day.
PCT Party time... use the best combo of the test boosters + best icariin (to be confirmed)
Stand alone icariin Use the best icariin prep as a stand alone check differences.
Icariin-50 (to be confirmed),
Icariin 50% powder (NutraPlanet),
Icariin tincture (Herba Nutra),
Icariin TD (forget),
HWG from Nutra
Icariin TD based in PhloJel system.
Stims - to be used when needed (not all the time)
Blue Up (up to 3 caps / day) - I'm dropping this.
White Flood powder and caps
Possibly Slim Xtreme
07-18-2009, 05:10 PM
07-18-2009, 05:13 PM
07-21-2009, 07:17 AM
07-21-2009, 09:13 AM
I'm not sure I'm following what your doing at all
Anyhow, I've ran some bulk icariin in the past and there's no tolerance effect that I ever noticed (and I'm a picky SOB). It stacks VERY well with testofen as per the "Thundergod" stack, but I've also found that icariin stacks well with the bargain bin NOW trib. Libido and aggression are the highlights IIRC.
07-21-2009, 10:02 AM
What am I doing? Thats a good question.
I agree it is a very messy experiment:
1. I am trying to find a good preparation of icariin, a) that could be TD, b) it could be tincture, c) it could be a good prep.
2. I am trying a whole heap of test boosters.
In the end I want a list of things test boosters that will compliment each other. Thats it. Thus icariin should compliment (stack) just about most test boosters based on zero or low content icariin.
The strict measures of test boosting is muscle growth and body fat... body fat is dropping in case (diet) and muscle is a bit tricky 'cause I picked up an injury. What I'm going on is a nootropic effect of "drive", energy and aggression as indicators of test. A nootropic effect however never lasts but a real test boost does last.
At present I'm itching to start a cycle. However, putting a cycle in the middle of this test of test boosters is a bit silly.... I'll think about that again.
Okay let me know if that is clearer. Anyway as the log progresses I'll be able to define my objectives more clearly. Just see it as scribbles in a lab notebook right now, not the final publication.
I guess my ultimate goal is a set of test boosters that could substitute a full cycle. That would take some doing however.
Conclusion to date
Icariin - no conclusion.
Test boosters - ActivaTE is a superb test booster that does appear to be really boosting free test.
07-21-2009, 11:36 AM
I personally don't see the point in swapping out 71 different test boosters. Many of them take 3-4 weeks to show any response whatsoever. Unless this is a 3 year experiment, I don't see how you could draw any conclusions other than a short term libido boost here and there
Instead of just being negative, I'll suggest a reasonable alternative plan. Pick up some bulk HGW (icariin). 10 bucks worth will last you a month if you just cap it. Run it solo and drop all the other supps you have listed. Give it 3 to 4 weeks and then tell us if you like it.
07-21-2009, 12:07 PM
Do I get the sense that Axis labs are not represented here?
Lets call it pre-screening. It ain't perfect but its the best I can do.
Emulating a PH - lets be honest some of the non-methylateds have received very poor reviews. But I agree its a tough/impossible challenge.
* 10 year experiment. Thats why its messy to cut in 8 weeks.
* Using bulk icariin nice idea but it wouldn't work because there are no controls being run. If you do an experiment you need a control.
* 3-4 weeks to kick... errhhh... have you seen the quantities I'm taking? * > 3 X recommended.
* 3-4 weeks to kick in. Thats adaptogen type kick-in. I'm getting pretty strong results on ActivaTE and am pretty happy with it.
* If its an adaptogen I'm not interested unless there is some immediate benefit of some form. I appear to be responding to the Rhodiola in ActivaTE - this is arguably the most notable adaptogen in Western herbal medicine. I take a regular dose of adaptogens (maca, aswanganda etc...) in one of the supplements (Dr. Wilson's Dynamite).
* If its a nootropic - I'm not interested because the effect doesn't last and I've got abosolutely stacks of them.
Again lets just call it pre-screening - it will point me in the right direction. I'll drop the cycle to the end of the 8 week trial and use the best combo for PCT. At least that makes things a bit tidier.
07-21-2009, 12:22 PM
Note that my suggestions mention nothing about Axis products. You SORT OF made it clear what you're trying to do. I think it's a poor plan and offered an alternative that will save you TONS of money with just as good of results.
Do not attack the company that I represent simply because I disagreed with your idea. You don't have to listen to me, even though I've used the supplement that you have listed as the thread TOPIC.
07-21-2009, 12:39 PM
I was joking. Sorry if it could be misinterprited.
I've already bought all the stuff in so I may as well use.
Lets just say its a starter. I know icariin has an effect on me, I'm not sure whether it is boosting test though but its doing something.
Anyway thanks for your advice... I can look at running HGW next cycle and therein save cash (although nutras icariin ain't cheap compared to pre-made test boosters). HGW is cheap from Nutra. I've got a batch on its way. Again the thing that worries me is the variation between extraction and sources of any herb.
Okay I've ammened the schedule to run a stand alone HGW.
07-21-2009, 02:58 PM
07-22-2009, 03:28 PM
Just to note I think one of the practical applications of this...
1. Icariin can be used to boost test boosters
2. Stand alone icariin could be used PCT as a PCT to all the other test boosters being used. This needs a really good source though or good dosage.
Anyway the log continues to take shape and the objectives look to be more clearly resolved. I'm away Friday till Wednes.
07-22-2009, 03:59 PM
Bro your silly not to listen to celc, i agree, your going to waste these boosters like this, one should be run properly to see its affects.
Gause institute member
Need2slin designer.Product designer/ **** admin.
07-22-2009, 06:06 PM
Ok .. what you are saying is that each product should be run stand alone.
2. Mass FX + hyperdrol (3 weeks),
3. Icariin, (3 weeks) ....
4. DHT (3 weeks)
5. pSARM (3 weeks)
.. rather than trying to combine them.
Is that the idea here?
If you've used any sort of nutritional/sports consultant in a big city - your money disappears far faster.
07-22-2009, 09:02 PM
07-23-2009, 02:02 AM
Okay then lets do this...
1. Mass FX + hyperdrol 3 weeks -> independent testos. test
2. Icariin + fenugreek 3 weeks -> independent testos. test
I can make a direct comparison between one of the standard products in the field and icariin. It ain't perfect but its a better plan than before.
07-23-2009, 02:17 AM
07-23-2009, 02:17 AM
07-23-2009, 08:10 AM
If you want to chip in PP ... be my guest. Really testofan is like $10 and Phyto-test $50... quite a difference.
07-23-2009, 10:57 AM
Just a few notes with the testofen/icariin stack:
I strongly recommend capping them. The taste is pretty bad and hard to stomach after suffering through a few doses. It might take you a few hours to do it by hand, but it's still cheaper. Plus with the bulk powders, you have leeway to increase dosage if you aren't satisfied. I've been up to 4g/day with both but saw just as good of results with 1-2g/day of each.
If you have a sensitive stomach, swap out the testofen and just use the NOW trib. I dug real deep and found that testofen (fenugreek) has mild laxitive properties. Just something to keep in mind.
07-23-2009, 12:00 PM
I think long term I'll look at buying an ELISA test kit. The one I've seen looks to be used on blood serum not saliva.
This is the only realistic way to monitor test levels long term because the cost for spot checks is overpriced to say the least in the UK its £40 per test.
It'd be £380 for 96 tests buying the kit so £4 per test although you need a piece of kit called a colourimeter which I don't know how to use.. but you can sort of get around it.
07-23-2009, 12:12 PM
07-28-2009, 04:10 AM
07-28-2009, 07:48 AM
Okay ... I'm proposing a modification here because I've got everything now 'in-house'.
* MassFX + hypdrol x2 (3 weeks) -> testos. saliva test
* Phyto-test (PP), + icariin/ HGW (3 weeks) -> testos. saliva test
* Diesel Test Hardcore (DHT) + T911 (3 weeks) -> testos. saliva test
1. Phyto-test (PP) is testofan and something else. I'm going to try it because of the current sale. Its now just twice the price as testofan ... (before it was 3.5 times)
2. Saliva testos test should have been done before I started but its too late. I am already 4 days into MassFX + hyperdrol
3. I'm running an AI with DTH because that is normally how I would run it.
- MassFX/Hypdrol ... that can't be changed now
- Phyto-test / icariin no AI ... I could run this with T911 and that would then compare with DHT/T911
- DHT/T911 I could run this singly as DHT but in a normal situation you'd always use an AI.
- Alternatively you could run hyperdrolx2 for the DHT AI ... hyperdrol x2 ain't cheap though... DHT/T911 is sort of 60% the price of the AX package.
- Alternatively I do have formestan so I could run instead of T911
- I could run pSARM and its AI instead of DHT/T911 - that would be more of a 'package'. I've got this in stock.
- I don't want to buy another AI
- I'd like to slip Sustain Alpha into here somewhere (I've got heaps of the stuff). I am not sure where. I could just run it throughout the whole test to keep everything even.
The expensive part here is really the testos. test. A single reading my not be reliable enough to compare between products, particularly if the differences are small. It will however give me a pretty robust range of my test - which for future reference will be important.
MassFX/Hyperdrolx2 > DHT/T911 > Phyto-test/icariin
MassFX/Hyperdrol x 2 = DHT/T911
30% drop in test for phyto-test/icariin is simply the absence of the AI...
Thus you'd have to ask if MassFX or DHT was really worth it.
07-29-2009, 12:36 PM
Just tried the tincture of HGW.... potent having an immediate effect. It acts alot quicker than standard HGW. I presume it goes sublingually and is helped with the alcohol preparation, in fact it could even get absorbed through the stomach wall if alcohol is anything to go by.
Whether it has a long term effect is another matter.
07-29-2009, 12:51 PM
I've been wondering if taking a test booster and an AI together is the best thing to do or if taking a test booster for 4-6 weeks immediately followed by an AI for 4-6 weeks would be better. I have no idea.
07-29-2009, 04:39 PM
07-29-2009, 04:49 PM
I'm probably overlooking the obvious, but what exactly are you trying to do, and what is dht? i know what DHT is, but you say that your taking DHT? Im a bit perplexed...?????
Also, what is day 6ii?
---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---
07-29-2009, 04:53 PM
So, are you trying to see which brand of icariin is the most potent?
---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---
07-29-2009, 04:58 PM
---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---
07-30-2009, 06:33 AM
07-30-2009, 06:41 AM
However it was pointed out that it is too complex. I'll use the tincture alongside standard veg caps.
The big limiting factor is the 'saliva' work after each run. Testos. tests are expensive particularly as you realistically need several test to get a reliable reading.
If I develop my own testos. test (which I could pull-off by buying the ELISA kit) then running different icariin preparations is feasible. I'm not 100% sure though if these kits will do saliva - they look to do blood serum and I ain't trained in taking blood particularly my own.
Its a good experiment to compare icariin because herbs vary alot in there quality and potency.
07-30-2009, 06:44 AM
When you're running a testos. test then if a natty test booster has not kicked in within 3 weeks it ain't any good for PCT.
You could criticize the lack of any rest period between runs.
I suspect the differences between products will not be big enough to be detected on one off testos. tests. BUT thats just a hypothesis.
07-31-2009, 08:18 AM
Following along for Test Booster knowledge. For the record...I went thru 2 bottles of T-911 and got nothing from them. Just finished an H-roid cycle and running CEL's Formastane 2X per day, on day 3. Excited to see your results as I only have had success with Maca & Fenugreek from now.
07-31-2009, 02:22 PM
Is English your first language? I'm wondering if we have a language barrier in some of the posts that might be creating a bit more tension than is warranted.
I like the direction your log is going and commend you for being open minded to listening to our suggestions
08-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Okay I am going to have to suspend this for a week...
Why? Dang I have a tooth root abscess - thats because UK dentists are reluctant to do routine X-rays due to the health risk. This should have been picked up before now. Luckily it has not gone systemic and root canal treatment worked (they hollow out your teeth remove the infection and add localised antibiotics then cap the tooth).
I am loaded to the eye balls with antibiotics right now. I'll continue AXs MassFX and Hyperdrolx2 next week post antibiotics.
Okay so formestane not T911. Thats settled.
The reason is I never proof my forum posts and I tend to type and read forum posts 'from the top of my head'. Thats why there typos and inaccuracies. For professional purposes I have to proof meticulously and get backup proofing: DHT and DTH is a good example, funny mistake although biologically thats a serious error. Tension stuff - no worries constructive criticism is welcome. Anyway thanks for your compliments celc.
Apart from the abscess everything is now in play. I have the saliva test kits, the Phyto-test (PP), lots of icariin, HGW and DTH/ formestane. Its not a perfect experiment. To be honest no matter how 'perfect' if the results are dramatic I'll pick it up regardless, if the results are much of a muchness I'll not see anything. Another week will be added to the MassFX/ Hyperdrolx2 supplements to account for a weeks loss.
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