The icariin log

matthias7

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Ya Nutra explained this one.

Their HGW is 10% icariin at $10
Their icariin is 50% icariin at $50

Icariin is the stuff that is known to have a biochemical effect (yes it works), but there's a lot more in a herbal extract than just one particular inhibitor.

At a guess I'd say that HGW is better value IF the 10% icariin is accurate because you also get a heap more biochemicals which may be contributing for example to neuro-steriodal effects. Icariin users all report this but icariin can't do that if it did Viagra would never have got approved by the FDA.

You can only test what you know you at looking for.
 
1HP

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Hi Matthias,

If you posted about it before in your log I missed it but did you find anything about why icariin can cause/aggrevate gyno in some people? Would that be through estrogen or prolactin pathways. I would not want to use icarriin if it increased prolactin, prolactin is evil ;)
 
matthias7

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I know what you mean Tribulus was alleged to do this. This though could just be guys doing steriods and turning up to their physcian saying "It must be the Tribulus! (the medical insurance must pay)".

No studies have linked sterols / herbal plant extracts with test increases in humans to my knowledge (but this occurs in lab animals), so I'd be surprised if icariin was messing up the estrogens. I'll look into it.

.... oh wait...
Wow in articles on this site St John's wort inhibits prolactin and speeds up the breakdown of estradiol. So natural estrogen modulation. Hey.. thats cool. Don't icariin can do that.
 
matthias7

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Currently:
3.5g HGW + 0.5ml HGW tincture per day (capped)
1g 50% icariin
1 cap Tribulus - I thought I'd use it up
4 - 5 phyto-test caps
Yohimbine HCL 15mg EOD

I dose the above across the day.

The main thing to note is that icariin (1g 50% & 3.5g 10%) has strong adaptogenic properties - its taken a while to kick in though. I sort of know a few adatogens and this stuff is definately one of them or at least its so close I don't know the difference. It ain't the stims I'm using 'cause it don't use them at weekend. Icariin also has a bit of a nootropic effect - but for me at least, so far not a strong one.

The main thing I've noticed is the upregulation of the endocrines, increased libido and a bit more 'mental drive'.

Get this stuff wet and its like tar - just can't get it off anything it sticks to.

Oh and no prolactin sides to date ;) [I'm sure thats what HP was politely plugging at]. I once got a very small amount of gyno - it was probably from Jungle Warfare, so I think I know the signs.

I am impressed with this stuff. Certainly consider this stack again along with Maca and possibly Long Jack. Its not going to boost test, or if it does its indirect but overall feel good - its got my vote. Maca is an excellent adaptogen.

The overall intake of icariin is around 0.8g per day. Its not a particularly cheap stack to use at that volume icariin ($70 per month plus fenugreek) but if it keeps going like this it might be worth it. There's Chuck's stuff to come yet.
 
1HP

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Nice, I would consider adding Rhodiola Rosea alongside the maca and hgw. I love that ****. BTW I found the best maca by far to be monster maca from therootofthematter. Big step up from the regular maca extracts.
 
matthias7

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Thanks HP, much appreciated. Any good source of ashwagandha?
 
1HP

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Thanks HP, much appreciated. Any good source of ashwagandha?
Only ashwaganda I ever tried was in some old usp labs product, I think it was called something like Rem3g. Now Foods always works for me though ;-)
 
matthias7

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For the run after DTH I'll run Maca, Long Jack, HGW and Muira Puama. At $54 from Nutra that seems a good buy to me. Although I technically I should take a break for at least a few weeks.

The wiki claims Muira Puama is an anxiogenic (causing anxiety) but we'll see.

One question that bugs me is whether buy DTHC is better value than buying the separate powders.
 
1HP

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For the run after DTH I'll run Maca, Long Jack, HGW and Muira Puama. At $54 from Nutra that seems a good buy to me. Although I technically I should take a break for at least a few weeks.

The wiki claims Muira Puama is an anxiogenic (causing anxiety) but we'll see.

One question that bugs me is whether buy DTHC is better value than buying the separate powders.
It is pretty good value indeed..

I never saw a need to cycle of Maca tbh, Long Jack, HGW and MP definately cycle off, they start losing effectiveness for me after 4 weeks, can stretch that by increasing dosages a little but more is not always better, aside from Maca where more is definately better lol :)

I would only take the Maca then after the DTHC, dose the monster Maca high and you'll feel great anyway :)
 
1HP

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Is the monster maca in yet? I just started taking it again this weekend. Capped it this time (tastes like crap to me), I get around 900 mg into a "00" cap. Taking 3 caps with breakfast for starters. Already a noticable moodlift, I'm also way more friendlier to other people and enjoy their company more, it's a funny thing.
 
matthias7

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Thanks HP.

I've got the Monster maca. It has a very pungent smell. Not tried it because it would disrupt the icariin cycle. I'll try the maca shortly. Got long jack at 200:1. Twice as strong as Nutras. I've not used it - but I am curious.

Icariin cycle ends middle of next week. I'll then send off the saliva tests. When the cycle has finished I'll have used:
* 50g 50% icariin
* 100g 10%? icariin (standard HGW)
* About 25g of standard HGW caps that I wanted to use up
* 1 tincture of icariin
* Almost 2 bottles of phyto-test (testofen).
* Small amounts of Tribulus
* I used a fair number of different stims, yohimbine, BSN Astro-phex and currently Slim Extreme.
Point 1. I used up the tincture mid-cycle and I am not sure but the cycle seemed to lose its bite shortly afterwards (described below). Really I should have bought 3 tinctures not 1. Point 2. I used almost twice as much phyto-test as I expected. I'm sure how or quite why but it happened. At standard retail price that would put the cost up quite a lot, although generic testofen could be used instead.

General stuff
My body fat has dropped to 15% BTW (cutting) Still a bit high for the standard of this forum but alot better than the 22% when I started.

Few updates:
* Nutras 50% icariin was at cut price of $30. I think the long term price has dropped as well :cheers:
* Nutra's standard HGW now says "20%". That probably means 20% icariin for $10. Bargin.

Effectiveness
1. I personally feel icariin lost its bite after mid-cycle for the purpose of this log which were strength/drive/energy. It works very well with stims.
I'm going to take a 2 week break before starting the DTHC cycle and run DHEA/preg to compare the overall energy/strength/drive factor. Objectively you only really notice when it first kicks in and it certainly kicks in. I'll only really be aware of its benefit once the cycle stops. For future it might be worth staggering an icariin cycle, where e.g. long jack was added just after mid-cycle to boost it.
However, let me get the test results.

2. The libido effect of icariin has become increasingly clear particularly towards the end of the cycle. It wasn't the purpose of the cycle and wasn't what I was expecting* but you can't ignore it. If you want youthful (male) vitality restored, icariin works but takes weeks of usage and keep in mind just how much icariin I've got through. However this can also be unwanted (e.g. youth [male]) so if this wasn't a cycle the long term dosage would need adjusting. Icariin is (obviously) much more effective here than ActivaTE, or the AX stack. It has an indirect role PCT.
* I thought the libido effect of icariin was a single/short-term dose - thats not how herbs work.

Conclusion to date
The unexpected output of "the icariin cycle" was libido. Not what I was aiming for. OTC unbeatable and forget the drugs there seems no point. So, the traditional use of icariin outside health and fitness is what it does. Before I started the cycle I thought it was a bit of myth.

Summary: HGWs traditional use is not exaggerated.
 
1HP

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You dropped 7% BF on icariin? :p

Nice update. Icariin gives me lots of aggression, thats the most noticable part for me which gives me more drive in the gym and by that mechanisme increases gains for me. The icariin content in DTHC is quite potent.

Fenugreek and Maca do more for me libido wise. I actually suspect Chuck adding maca to his formula in relatively large quantities is to keep libido up on higher dosages/prolonged use. These 2 seem to word through different routes then pure test boosting.

matthias, when are you gonna try the monster maca since your staring the DTHC in 2 weeks?
 
matthias7

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Fenugreek and libido (fenugreek=testofen and is in phyto-test). Its a good point the fenugreek could be providing/contribuing libido and unless I ran them separately I couldn't tell. I think its the icariin based on its active compound (PDE5 inhibitor). Could be both.

You dropped 7% BF on icariin? :p
Started cutting at the start of the log (mid-July), just not been updating. Its really the overall diet/ cardio/stims. I'll probably drop a bit body fat by the end of the log. Shedding "puppy-fat" isn't too hard.

matthias, when are you gonna try the monster maca since your staring the DTHC in 2 weeks?
Dunno. Also can't wait to try super strength long jack. Could run both after DTHC.
 
tnubs

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Do you feel the icariin benefitted your body composition changes?
 
celc5

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Do you feel the icariin benefitted your body composition changes?
Not to answer for anyone else... in my own experience, I think it may have slightly helped with strength and some mild aggression in the gym. It was very nice for libido as well. I don't think icariin contributed to any "leaning" effect for me in terms of fatloss though.
 
matthias7

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Do you feel the icariin benefitted your body composition changes?
I really don't know because I was doing that in any case. I don't think so, but if it did it would be more effective than the AX stack or ActivaTE.
 
matthias7

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Do you feel the icariin benefitted your body composition changes?
I can answer that now. No icariin doesn't but high quality maca certainly does.

I decided to run ginseng/"monster maca" before the DHTC cycle. "Monster maca" is some sort of juice that is dehydrated and ground. Supposed to be strong. It surpresses hunger like crazy right now and that is the main thing I've noticed from it.

Strong ginseng (6-year old) causes a bit of hunger surpression. Maca causes alot of hunger surpression (I staggered the cycle). Might not last but if this continues I'll be set for another drop in body fat.

I report back with a full update on ginseng/icariin/maca in a few weeks. Ginseng and icariin is a very interesting energy combo which I ran for a week; they seem to act synergistically.
 
matthias7

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Log stalled a bit. Complication on testing test has arisen. Keep you posted.
 
matthias7

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Okay the complications with the test testing are highlighted here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/primordial-performance/138502-problem-saliva-test.html

It is not a pretty story, but luckily I didn't freeze-thraw any of my samples so they should still be in perfect condition.

Maca/6-year old ginseng run is going well.

Two full teaspoons of maca and about .75g of ground up ginseng. Gives good physical energy and stamina. I got acne!!! So something is working - like haven't had acne for years and years. Acne now mostly cleared, or at least under control.

When the test samples are finally cleared I'll report back and start the final cycle.
 
John Smeton

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nice stack. I am taking Icariin and trans-resveratrol. interesting in seeing results also divinal I am taking

do you count calories? 200 protein is low. Id go at least 250-300 while losing body fat. 1.5 is ideal for training intensely!

looking forward to some results. My goals right now are to get strong as I can. Then Ill re-access goals. most likely Ill lose some body fat because I am at the limit where I want to be . but right now it is get crazy strong!
 
matthias7

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Hey... I don't count calories. I restrict carb. sources and count GI (glycemic index) of a carb carefully.

E.g. I'll eat German rye bread instead of whole meal bread and avoid white bread altogether. I eat oats (or oaties) every day - fantastic low GI food. I avoid anything with sugar in it, except for occassional stuff. I'll use vegetables in favour of fruit. I'll always avoid soda and even concerntrated fruit juice, that sort of thing.

I should be more careful about meal size and timing, i.e. 6 - 7 meals a day, but I couldn't keep it up and have 4 max.

You naturally restrict carb calories on a low GI diet because apart from oats (which I love) most other low GI carbs are not that tasty, unless beans and pulses are counted as carbs (tasty). Also body composition is better IMO - you don't lose much facial fat, you seem to lean without looking thin. Just my opinion though.

I thought I'd cut to 10-11% body fat. I am not sure now without strong hunger suppression supplements.

Thanks for the tip: I'll boost protein intake with 60g - 100g whey in the evening, which will give an extra 40 - 80g protein. I'll get some pea and egg white protein for this to spread the protein source. You can't go wrong on a high protein diet.
 
John Smeton

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Hey... I don't count calories. I restrict carb. sources and count GI (glycemic index) of a carb carefully.

E.g. I'll eat German rye bread instead of whole meal bread and avoid white bread altogether. I eat oats (or oaties) every day - fantastic low GI food. I avoid anything with sugar in it, except for occassional stuff. I'll use vegetables in favour of fruit. I'll always avoid soda and even concerntrated fruit juice, that sort of thing.

I should be more careful about meal size and timing, i.e. 6 - 7 meals a day, but I couldn't keep it up and have 4 max.

You naturally restrict carb calories on a low GI diet because apart from oats (which I love) most other low GI carbs are not that tasty, unless beans and pulses are counted as carbs (tasty). Also body composition is better IMO - you don't lose much facial fat, you seem to lean without looking thin. Just my opinion though.

I thought I'd cut to 10-11% body fat. I am not sure now without strong hunger suppression supplements.

Thanks for the tip: I'll boost protein intake with 60g - 100g whey in the evening, which will give an extra 40 - 80g protein. I'll get some pea and egg white protein for this to spread the protein source. You can't go wrong on a high protein diet.
no not at all protein holds onto more muscle when dieting.

remember though, to calculate your diet say for example your bmr(thats what you would do if you stayed the same bodyweight) is (just a guess) 3,000...so you could take in 3,000 and do cardio for an hour a burn 500 calories..bam that 2,500 total intake because you burnt 500 k's on cardio..and you would lose that way....

or another option is just lower calories instead of cardio..I personally like to eat a bit more and do my cardio to burn because te cardio feels good and the health benefits.

there are many ways to gauge process and I am reasoning you know what you are doing because I remember your last log where you dropped body fat.

Obviously the mirror is the best way...another way that works for me from a logical way is the scale..I weigh every friday at 7:00 (shoes off)if the scale is not budging then i drop 200-300 more calories that week and re access next week. that is just some thing that works for myself. (same process with gaining instead of subtract add, and keeping body fat in control)

I agree about the low gi index stuff.When a person is losing body fat it is probably best to use this just to make sure. in the "off season" or calorie gaining mode I take in white rice, white potatoes,(no white bread) instead of brown rice and sweet potatoes.

remember they did the studies with the carb source only so adding fat and protein slows the gi index down..so a person probably could go into losing body fat mode with white rice and white potatoes, but I play is more on the safe side just in case.

Btw I got most of my information above from Dorian Yates.

where in Uk are you? is it close to Dorians gym? have you ever thought of going though a training session with him for him to access your form/technique? he is a master at this
 
matthias7

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Good stuff. You'e saying "you can cut to 10% bf". Not you call it a day at 15%.

Hate it but its a good goal: by calories and cardio its achievable.

You can go 10% bf with supplements. You cut calories by hunger suppression either by:
1. blocking glucose receptors (genuine Hoodia is supposed to do this - although its export is supposed to be now illegal). The reality is you can still probably get the good stuff.
2. raising or attempting to raise dopamine (but this isn't sustainable without cycling) or
3. particulalry by raising metabolic rate (norephinephrine).

Point 3 = bad heart.

You can raise norephinephrine and use supplements to cut blood pressure - better to use cardio. You can raise serotonin and will help a bit - but better to use gym and other stuff I like.

Fine tuning gym to diet: Dorian Yates and Chris Cormier ... thanks.

Okay I'll cut to 10% as a one-off then go get a professional's advice to hold it at around 10 - 12%. Below 10% ... no!
 
matthias7

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Few quick notes ..
Cutting
I appear to have a very reputable Hoodia source and it does appear to work very well. If this keeps up I'll cut to 10% on this alone, but thats if it holds out and tolerance isn't observed. It is clear that Hoodia is doing more than blocking glucose receptors and might be why Phytopharm (long history) has not been able to make a weight loss drug from it.

Current cycle
Maca/ light [high quality] ginseng and I'm finishing this cycle using DHEA. I took a test sample from it.

I resolved http://anabolicminds.com/forum/primordial-performance/138502-problem-saliva-test.html via a (work) trip to the US. I hope to have the results in a couple of weeks. So should have some figures next post and by the beginning of next year the log is done.

Next cycle
End of next week the DTHC cycle will start (finally) and run for 1 month and I will finish the cycle with some long jack (which I can't wait to try out).

If the long jack is promising I'll run another log on long jack/maca next year and compare it against another test booster pSarm (?) I have. Long jack does have a massive reputation. Probably mix some cheap icariin and fenugreek with the pSarm.

Note

Oh better mention the best energy drive comes from 6-year old ginseng beyond all doubt but appears to work synergistically with icariin. I'll mention all this is in the final summary.
 
BBB

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Hey, I'm wondering why you think MassFX/Hyperdrol will be better than DTH/T911? MassFX does look like an interesting product but DTH seems to have better reviews. I'm not sure how Hyperdrol would compare to T911 in terms of effectiveness. People seem to really like formestane so a MassFX/Formestane or DTH/Formestane stack would be nice.

I've been wondering if taking a test booster and an AI together is the best thing to do or if taking a test booster for 4-6 weeks immediately followed by an AI for 4-6 weeks would be better. I have no idea.
I'm just about four weeks into a six week cycle of DTHC (6/day)+Drive (6/day) and TD formestane (200 mg/twice/day). I love the alpha male feeling and the strength increases from this stack. I was hopping to gain about 5-6 lbs but so far that has not happened even though I've increased my caloric intake slightly. However, my arm size has increased by 1/4". This significant for me since my arms have been stuck at 16 3/4" for years. I told my wife years ago that if my arms ever reach 17" we are going to party. Moreover, my waist size has decreased by 1/2" so everthing is moving in the right direction. Another aside is that this stack works better than Viagra. I know because I've taken both Viagra and Cialas in the past. At nearly 60 years of age I can wear my wife out, although she's not complaining so far.
 
John Smeton

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You can go 10% bf with supplements. You cut calories by hunger suppression either by:
1. blocking glucose receptors (genuine Hoodia is supposed to do this - although its export is supposed to be now illegal). The reality is you can still probably get the good stuff.
2. raising or attempting to raise dopamine (but this isn't sustainable without cycling) or
3. particulalry by raising metabolic rate (norephinephrine).

Point 3 = bad heart.

You can raise norephinephrine and use supplements to cut blood pressure - better to use cardio. You can raise serotonin and will help a bit - but better to use gym and other stuff I like.
are you saying Eca stack causes a bad heart?
 
matthias7

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Yeah ... its badly worded
Any stimulant will:
1. Cause an increase in metabolic rate, really due to adrenalin (ephinephrine) causing amongst other things vaso-constriction, increased heart rate (?)
2. Tolerance
ECA being the most potent stimulant with aspirin being added to assist blood circulation. ECA increases the risk of heart/blood circulation problems but really for fit guys it shouldn't be a problem. If someone who is massively unfit is using it as a fat-burner thats when problems are likely to happen.
 
matthias7

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Okay here's the results so far finally:

MassFX and HyperdrolX2 (August, 2009) = .. 129 pg/ml
Icariin and phytotest (October, 2009) = ........ 82 pg/ml
Maca/low quantity ginseng/ very brief DHEA =106 pg/ml

The normal range is 44-148 pg/ml. Teenagers can exceed the 148 barrier.

So MassFX/HyperdrolX2 is a clear winner. I was informed this level of test could be unhealthy, but that just means don't use natty test boosters permanently. We all know that.

Icariin/phyto-test did not perform well and I was really using high doses of the stuff particularly towards the end of the cycle. Maca is worth looking at for future reference and I used a moderate dose.

I'll not be using an AI for the next cycle DTHC. If formastane is a better AI than HyperdrolX2 then you/I could go over the 148 threshold. In other words if maca and the rest of the DHTC herbal extracts was combined with a potent AI (formastane is well respected) this could be too potent. However if you're going through PCT thats exactly what you need.

My goal is not to massively bulk muscle but to stay sharp, lean and healthy. All the stats to date indicate that is what is happening.

Happy with the results. With thanks to ZRT and partic. Mary for lots of help here.

I'll update the remaining stats, body weight, bf etc... in due course.

The DHTC cycle will start this week.
 
matthias7

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Better comment here, the quality of the maca result (last result) will be better than the other two due to better sample quality.

The other two samples have gone through a freeze/thaw cycle and a plane journey. The maca result was taken on the day it was posted.

The samples took about a week to arrive at ZRT and were kept at 4oC. It was about 2 weeks from sending to testing so there will have been a bit degradation and a freeze/thaw cycle will have caused sample degradation. A test sample will be seriously be degraded after a month if its not frozen.

I couldn't avoid freezing BTW.

This could explain why the maca result was higher than expected and the icariin result was lower than expected. If that is true then it suggests the MassFX/Hx2 result is a minimum value and could have been towards the "too high" level.

I personally didn't think Hx2 was that potent and am surprised how effective it was. I find T911 to be more potent by some margin - the boys feel it. I suspect I'm sensative to AIs, but I don't have any test results to back this up.
 
matthias7

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Anyway the key result here is clear ...

AX gives 50% more test than icariin.

That is astonishing.

It appears icariin/phyto-test does zip.

The results are exactly comparable.

The conclusion is clear.
 
andrew732

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Anyway the key result here is clear ...

AX gives 50% more test than icariin.

That is astonishing.

It appears icariin/phyto-test does zip.

The results are exactly comparable.

The conclusion is clear.
You need some studying to do, phyto test is NOT for total test, rather FREE TEST, which is a BIG DIFFERENCE in the hormonal panel. No doubt, an AI plus divanil(free test free up) will be the winner over those you mentioned, I do not need bloodwork to know that, science will tell me that.
 
matthias7

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A saliva test will not be adversely affected by SHBG. Its not a blood test and thats the only place you'll find SHBG. So that should be accounted for.

Sure I predicted an AI will win, but its surprising that icariin/phyto-test appears to be zip and the margin between them.

Anyway lets see what DHTC does.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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Great log! Where is a cheap place to get a hormone test kit?
 
matthias7

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ZRT is the place for the test sample. The test is a saliva sample - so easy to take and not complicated by SHBG, or SHBG is minimized. They do a good service and was impressed by their customer orientated approach.

Mary was my contact within ZRT, is very helpful and sorts out any admin problems.
 
1HP

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Hmm I would go for the monster maca with low dose (1 cap a day) formex. Only drawback crazy ass libido and extremely oily forehead :)

Thinking back I really loved running that :)

Great updates man, keep doing what you're doing!
 
matthias7

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Thanks 1HP.

It is important to point out that maca does look to be increasing test. Monster maca did give me acne (oily forehead - you're right).

If I take maca on an empty stomach it makes nauseous. Monster maca is okay 'cause I just mix it with oats. DTHC ain't that easy and it has a yuk strong smell (maca). Nausea is reduced by drinking water. I think for DTHC it needs very good water consumption.

I'll review the cycle in a week. Something is giving me chronic appetite suppression. Monster maca did this and DTHC maca might be doing the same. It could be I'm using both Hoodia and DTHC and the net effect is crazy appetite suppression.

I'm running low dose formestane (once per day). Actually I think its okay, I was going to drop it. Hyperdrol X2 was okay as well but T911 is strong. I think what is happening is that T911 is bucca uptake so its quickly into the blood stream whilst formestrane - transdermal - is released slowly. I think formestane is perfectly fine, I mis-judged it.

Its likely I'll need to quit the Hoodia because appetite suppression is okay but really heavy appetite suppression ain't for me.

Finally its important to point out icariin/phyto-test (I think it was icariin) massively increased libido. So there is a good reason to use it, even though there's no evidence it boosts test. At the end of that cycle I was fed-up with icariin, I'd virtually saturated myself in the stuff.
 
matthias7

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For now I'm gonna do a 7-day cycle of long jack (200:1), maca, ActiVate and formestane.

Maca = 2 full teaspoons per day
long jack = 4 x 300mg per day
ActiVate = 3-4 caps per day
formestane = 2 pumps morning

DTHC is causing nausea, I suspect the gelatin maca is the culprit. Need to get this cleared up and then look to returning to it later. It ain't heavy nausea.
 
matthias7

matthias7

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Quick note: I dunno whether I'm a strong responder to long jack but I've dosed yesterday and this morning... this stuff is amazing. Whether it will increase test I dunno but I'm sticking with it.

Why?
It has a "Prime" like behaviour. You feel very driven and focussed. It hasn't been associated with test increase but like Tribulus I think it does in animals. I will stick with this stack. Like Prime I might get tolerance but 2 days running and all is good.

The problem I have with DTHC is that I probably need to take it on a full stomach. What I was doing was dosing on an empty stomach. I once did that with Monster maca and felt really nauseous.
 
John Smeton

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I am taking Stoked which has icariin ( 40 %) 500 mgs, resveratrol, quercetin, and piperine every day. The reason i do not list the other ingredients is because I think it is the icariin that has increased my sex drive so much.I have not been like this ever i do not think. It is incredible when sex drive is like this.
 
matthias7

matthias7

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Hey Smeton yea:

I do the same. I use Stoked as my source of resveratrol and use it as part of my regular stack. I should have mentioned I've run Stoked throughout these cycles. Its just resveratrol ain't cheap and Stoked is good value. The resveratrol in it ain't high purity but it doesn't give me any problems at all.

Stomach trouble cleared up when I stopped DHTC ... which is a slight problem. I'll run the ActiVate/maca/long jack/formestane stack and try to switch the maca/ActiVate with DTHC later. I could grind the stuff up and put it in my oats/protein powder. The long jack I've got is too good to quit.

DTHC is really good value. The Tribulus in it I'll bet is a good grade because Chuck use to do a Trib natty test booster which had a very good reputation. The maca in it is good stuff although it may not be as pure as the stuff I normally use. Pity I can't stomach it.

Anyway you're running a nice test boost cycle. Is TestoPRO the newbie with a massive reputation? AI is a great company I use Cycle Support as part of my daily stack - excellent stuff. AI has great customer service.
 
matthias7

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Quick comment it looks like I've a bad reaction to DTHC. Great value for money product. The ingredients are just great, selenium is in there, balanced zinc to copper ratio ... rocks.

Maca on an empty stomach gives me nausea. This stuff was no exception and in fact went on to become a gut infection. It wasn't severe and I stopped DHTC and the gut problem cleared within 2 days. Could be coincidence, dunno.

I'll stick with my current stack for this cycle. I think the main thing I'm testing here is the effectiveness of formestane. In theory this stack should still give high test levels at 130+ (saliva test). We'll see.

I could put Sustaini Alpha into the stack but at that point there's too going on to know what is doing what. If test really sky rockets then it looks like long jack is getting in on the act.

Overall I like the current stack, great energy drive and focus. DTHC is good except for the gastric trouble! Keep you posted.
 
matthias7

matthias7

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Better review this cycle 'cause I keep modifying it:

Long jack at 200:1 = 3 caps per day [900mg]
Formestane = 4 pumps [no problems at all]
DTHC = 2 tabs/caps per day* [1/4 dose]
Maca = 2 teaspoons
Low level ginseng [6-year old stock]

* DTHC is not too bad at low dose.

Run this cycle for another 5 weeks and keep upping the dose of DTHC each week and drop long jack to 2 caps per day after 2 weeks.

Comments: I started Recreate (USP) - and suddenly freaky high background cortisol. I presume its this stuff.

Other supplements
I use a big stack including...
AI: Cycle Support, Stoked 1/2 dose. Big fan of AI
PP: EndoAmp Max 1/3 dose, Toco-8 1/3 dose
USP: Recreate full dose, Prime 1/4 dose
Millenium: Cordygen5 1/4 dose, MVA, ZMK
BSN: Astro-phex 1/4 dose
Beta3: 2 caps
Other: Hoodia, (the legendary) Fo-Ti, marral root + andaptogens

No caffeine at all.

Mega-B (various), Mega-C (various) + others.
Wanted: better cortisol control. PAS (EndoAmp) is a bit $$$

Overall both physical and mental energy levels are high. Thats pretty obvious with elevated cortisol. It ain't just Recreate. I'm actually running 3 fat-burners - Recreate, Beta3, Astrophex but Astrophex is at 1/4 or even 1/8 dose. Hoodia is an appetite suppressant.

I will hold the ship steady for now and either drop Beta3 and Astrophex after Christmas. or just keep going for the full cycle. If I hold the ship I'll sure hit my 10% (ish) target by end of cycle.

When the cycle is done I "detox" cortisol on DHEA and/or Ashgandwana/Rhodiola.
 
1HP

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Ey man, nice stack :)

One thing you might wanna checkout, I never got around to getting to the bottem of it but here goes: Resveratrol has strong estrogenic effects in the absence of estrogen. The question is what counts as "enough absence" of estrogen. Formestane at 4 pumps? I dont know. I'm going the safe route and do not stack resveratrol with AI's or serms. Might be nothing but....
 
matthias7

matthias7

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That is a very good point. It could be more beneficial to cycle Stoked (my reserveratrol source) against an AI. The only draw back I could think is risk of gyno from the estrogen boost but could 2 caps/day could achieve this??

The full function of resveratrol isn't known. Both Chinese (Fo-Ti) and Japanese (resveratrol) knotweed are known to have strong anti-aging properties. Fo-Ti has been used for centuries for this purpose. Its almost certainly doing more than a simple AI. Boosting test levels long term in theory should shorten life expectancy rather than lengthen it - it increases aggression (DHT), stress, metabolism, "hunting" behaviour etc...

I'm sticking with Fo-Ti by the way. I love it. I sure ain't quiting Cycle Support, I actually prefer it to Fo-Ti.

To get the maximum benefit from Stoked cycling at the correct dose (for my weight its probably 5 -6 caps) rather than a regular stack (2 caps) is probably a better option.

Knowbull pointed out resveratrol benefits are felt in the aged and those doing PCT.

Okay its a good idea I'll cut Stoked and see if I've any drop in libido, energy, strength etc... Stoked has been run throughout all the cycles in this log. The test levels will better reflect the AI I'm using than Stoked.
 

Dath

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Matthias, have you tried gelatinized maca? I'm wondering how it compares to Maca Monster.
 

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