Help with Test Enth
- 12-07-2007, 02:17 PM
Help with Test Enth
I did Enth over the summer and it was my first cycle in over 10 years. I will be starting my next cycle in April and need some guidance here. I made the mistake of not dosing twice a week, I did it all in one shot when I took 500mg. What can I take leading up to it and what would work best for me while I am on it. I want to prevent as much of the bloat as I can and have Nolvadex to fight this along with the gyno. I am pleased I kept much of my strength but the mass I lost was so noticable. My PCT cycle consisted of mostly nolva and a week of Clomid but this clearly wasn't enough. I wasted my money on Vitrex and Paraval and all those other supplements that are supposed to increase your libido and bring your test level back to normal. I weigh 180 , 5'8 and want to pack on 10 solid pounds of shredded muscle. I will be using the following in April.
300 mg week 1
450 mg week 2
450 mg week 3 2 nolva a day
600 mg week 4 2 nolva a day
600 mg week 5 2 nolva a day
750 mg week 6 2 nolva a day
750 mg week 7 2 nolva a day
600 mg week 8 2 nolva a day
450 mg week 9 2 nolva a day
450 mg week 10 2 nolva a day
450 mg week 11 2 nolva a day
300 mg week 12 2 nolva a day
300 mg week 13 2 nolva a day
150 mg week 14 2 nolva a day
I have winnie as well that I will incorporate into my routine in week 8. Can someone please guide me on the best way to do this? When do I use Epistine? I will have armidex on hand as well. Help is very much appreciated.
- 12-07-2007, 03:05 PM
the amiridex will help stop the bloat, the Nolva wont do much for the bloat, just the gyno. Your better off taking something like .25mg EOD of amiridex, than the Nolva.
- 12-07-2007, 03:14 PM
I would just keep the test at one dosage throughout the entire cycle, IMO there is no point in pyramiding up and down with test. You should be good with 500 mg ew, or even 750mg ew.
12-08-2007, 02:43 PM
12-08-2007, 11:47 PM
the tapering is an oldschool method that got debunked, run the same dose ew
12-10-2007, 09:41 AM
Thanks guys, I will keep the doasge consistent throughout. I did the pyrmaid method over the summer and I was happy with the results but I think i was just happy with how strong and big I got.
PCT will consist of HCG, 2 weeks of clomid, and the last 4 weeks will be Nolva. I made the mistake of only using Nolva on my last one and I lost some size, not much strength. But my libido went WAY down.
12-10-2007, 12:28 PM
12-10-2007, 01:28 PM
I read it should be run in the last 2 weeks of my cycle. I am not doing this until April so I have time to gather my facts and game plan. I read this about HCG on Big Kat's website. Can you help me out on explaining what pulsing is?
12-10-2007, 01:37 PM
I would run 500 mg/w.. No less. I also agree with saving the nolva for pct, and using arimadex while on. you will notice a definit decrease in estrogen related watter retention, and it will also help keep the risk of gyno down big time. I would run the arimadex at .5mg eod. and for higher levals of test like 1000mg/s a week i would run it 1mg eod or even ed.
hope this helps...
12-10-2007, 01:50 PM
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that is used in place of LH to stimulate hormone production from the gonads. LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone. When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.2-6,19 However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle. Though, we will learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.
Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand the most efficient way to use it. Many popular "steroid profiles" advocate an hCG dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency.85,86 That is, testes desensitize when not presented with a sufficient LH signal. In men with normal LH levels and testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only ~250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above base line.12-18) So, if you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.
To get an idea of how quickly testicular degeneration occurs from your average multi-anabolic steroids cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration.2,9,10 By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.2-6 It should be mentioned that visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone.4 This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, testicular size may appear normal on a cycle, but the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly diminished.3-5
The decreased testosterone secretion capacity was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.8 In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. Other studies with men using low dose steroid implants for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks.
These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a cycle, increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG, estrogen will be increased disproportionately, which then causes further HPTA suppression while increasing the risk of gyno.11 For example, high doses of hCG are known to raise estradiol 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%.11 Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes12,13,19 (the last thing someone wants during recovery). While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a drug such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM. (covered in the next section)
In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle. Based on studies with normal men using steroids, ~100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG.2 It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular degeneration occurs, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.
Recap – For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first anabolic steroids dose. Drop the hCG a week before the anabolic steroids clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.
A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)
As an alternative to the on cycle hCG protocol, you could follow a plan based on modulation of the gonadotropin pulse generator. (seen here)
Note: If following any of these protocols, hCG should NOT be used after the cycle.
12-10-2007, 04:06 PM
Reps to you freqfly. Thanks!
12-10-2007, 05:38 PM
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