Non SERM PCT - Your Input Needed!

[neoborn]

Hey Guys,

I would like you all to help me put something together that will help many people that have been PM'ing me / relying on me for good quality advice.

As you know now that the oparation war deel went down not everyone has access to SERMs etc and now more than ever are more hesitant to get them. This is where you guys come in, there are many here with good knowledge and can guide me / others to not seriously f*cking their health up.

What I know:

• SERMs are highly recommended for post cycle therapy's - please don't just say this, as I know this is the best way!
• I am no steroid / PCT / HPTA guru!

What I would like to know:

What is the best way to do a non SERM PCT that hopefully will be as close to a PCT using a SERM.

My recommendations for a cycle are:

1. Liver Supps - Cycle Support, Liver Longer, Liv52, Milk Thistle, NAC, SAMe

2. AI - Formestane & Penetrate, 6-oxo, ATD, Activate, 6-bromo?

3. Test Booster - Drive? MassFX? Diesel Test Hardkore?

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain, Retain2, Lean Xtreme, 11-oxo

Please can you give your suggestions to help others achieve a close as possible restoration PCT that does NOT include a SERM?

Much Love,

:thumbsup:Neoborn:thumbsup:

 

[smokey the bear]

As you have already stated it is always best, imo absolutely nessacary, to have a SERM on hand during and following a cycle..

If you can get illegal AAS then you can usually get a SERM from that same source. So, im going to assume that someone who wouldnt have any access to SERM's would most likely be using one of the many legal PH/PS/DS that are on the market.

First of all, if i knew i didnt have access to a SERM for pct, my actual cycle layout would be drastically changed...

I would probably use AI's in a taper, along with a handfull of natural test boosters, in an attempt to get the boy back..

wk1) 75mg atd
wk2) 50mg atd
wk3) 25mg atd
wk4) 25mg atd

i personally dont like the side effects of atd.. so you can choose to taper with androstenetrione or some other otc AI.

some natural test boosters that i would include begining week 3 of pct would include, but are not limited to; tribulus, avena sativa, nettle root, dodder seed, fenugreek, and eurycoma(sp?)

Anabolic Innovations has also just come out with a product called Post Cycle Support, which i am looking forward to trying.

But honestly, i would not go into any cycle, especially any that includes "wet" compounds, without having a SERM on hand...

 

[ECTOmorph]

resverstrol might be a decent serm and its legal

 

[neoborn]

resverstrol might be a decent serm and its legal

might be? Do you have something I can readu up on that supports this?

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[ECTOmorph]

Resveratrol acts as an estrogen antagonist at the ER-alpha subtype, while acting as an agonist or having neutral activity at the ER-beta. This is how SERMs such as clomiphene and tamoxifen work. They too work as an estrogen antagonist or agonist, depending upon the estrogen receptor subtype.

The study states exactly that:

"We report that resveratrol exhibits E2 antagonist activity for ERalpha with select EREs. In contrast, resveratrol shows no E2 antagonist activity with ERbeta."

Breast cancer cell lines aren't normal cell lines and shouldn't be used to determine what will or will not cause gynecomastia. If it's obvious that it's acting directly and primarily through estrogen receptors, then yes, but breast cancer often involves mechanisms that are independent of estrogen receptors.

Resveratrol has in fact been shown to inhibit breast cancer cell lines in studies. For example:
Mol Pharmacol. 2007 Sep 11;
Mitochondria, Calcium, and Calpain are Key Mediators of Resveratrol-Induced Apoptosis in Breast Cancer.
Sareen D, Darjatmoko SR, Albert DM, Polans AS.
University of Wisconsin - Madison.
Resveratrol (RES), a natural plant polyphenol, has gained interest as a non-toxic chemopreventive agent capable of inducing tumor cell death in a variety of cancer types. However, the early molecular mechanisms of RES-induced apoptosis are not well defined. Using the human breast cancer cell lines MDA-MB-231 and MCF-7, we demonstrate that RES is anti-proliferative and induces apoptosis in a concentration- and time-dependent manner. Preceding apoptosis, RES instigates a rapid dissipation of mitochondrial membrane potential (DeltaPsim) by directly targeting mitochondria. This is followed by release of cytochrome c and Smac/DIABLO into the cytoplasm and substantial increase in the activities of caspases-9 and -3 in MDA-MB-231 cells. Additionally, live cell microscopy demonstrates that RES causes an early biphasic increase in the concentration of free intracellular calcium ([Ca(2+)]i), likely resulting from depletion of the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stores in breast cancer cells. In caspase-3 deficient MCF-7 cells apoptosis is mediated by the Ca(2+)- activated protease, calpain, leading to the degradation of plasma membrane Ca(2+)-ATPase isoform 1 (PMCA1) and fodrin; the degradation is attenuated by buffering [Ca(2+)]i and blocked by calpain inhibitors. Mitochondrial permeability transition pore antagonists also blocked calpain activation. In vivo mouse xenograft studies demonstrate that RES treatment inhibits breast cancer growth with no systemic toxicities. Collectively, these results suggest a critical role for mitochondria not only in the intrinsic apoptotic pathway but also in the Ca(2+) and calpain-dependent cell death initiated by RES. Thus, RES may prove useful as a non-toxic alternative for breast cancer treatment

 

[stxnas]

...speaking of...http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-innovations/76695-post-cycle-support.html#post1038654

 

[Solitude]

Subscribed... just in case I can't get SERM one day this thread might be useful

Oh yeah, I read that Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C) is a quality ingredient to add to post cycle therapy, as it converts bad estrogen to good estrogen. So you might wanna add that to your list of estrogen control supps neo.

 

[hardestgainer]

I was wondering the same thing, because of the recent busts all my suppliers are dry. And I got a bottle of epistane I am itching to run, but can't get my hands on a serm. I was thinking running a pulse, and then pct without a serm, but am worried of both gyno, and that i won't recover fast enough!

 

[EasyEJL]

For resveratrol, also look at info from primordial performance's Dermacrine Sustain. I still haven't seen it used solo, but I intend to do it that way with pre-cycle and post post cycle testosterone testing.

as it is, I think hitting 1-2g of resveratrol a day orally would probably do it. it may even help avoid or limit HTPA shutdown if taken on cycle.

 

[babyblu]

This is an easy answer:

1. Dermacrine Sustain: contains lots of goodies, including resveratrol using a TDS which should lead to higher absorption rates vs. oral.

2. Use regular Dermacrine during the cycle: should help keep HPTA up n running (similar to using hcg) thereby reducing suppression and making PCT easier.

3. Use natural test boosters (try and use some of each different types of natty test boosters: trib product, longjack, horny goat weed, ZMA, etc; dont limit yourself to one type, use a multi-pronged approach here to attack this)

4. Use an AI (since most take several weeks to kick in, this is good b/c you might want some amt of estrogen at the beginning of the cycle)

5. If you are going to use ATD I would wait until a couple of days into the PCT

6. Anti-cort supps (as described above)

bb

 

[UNCfan1]

1. Liver Supps - Cycle Support SAMe

2. AI - Formestane & Penetrate on cycle with AX original PCT during PCT or HDx2

3. Test Booster - Drive or MassFX

4. Anti-Cort - Retain2

5. Sustain will be added for PCT.

I like this and I think it would work nicely.

 

[CROWLER]

I was wondering the same thing, because of the recent busts all my suppliers are dry. And I got a bottle of epistane I am itching to run, but can't get my hands on a serm. I was thinking running a pulse, and then post cycle therapy without a serm, but am worried of both gyno, and that i won't recover fast enough!

This is exactly the thinking behind developing the product by the name of POST Cycle Support. So many people don't want to worry if they are going to get busted it just gives you another option.


CROWLER

 

[EasyEJL]

This is exactly the thinking behind developing the product by the name of POST Cycle Support. So many people don't want to worry if they are going to get busted it just gives you another option.


CROWLER

I'd still say double dose Post cycle support the first week or two after cycle, then single dose it. just to have the higher resveratrol content for a while

 

[Movin_weight]

i personally wouldn't run a cycle without a SERM and would recommend the same to anyone who is gyno prone

without a way to block receptors in breast tissue your just asking for problems... Ai's are ok at restoring test levels, but when your test production is zero there is not the issue of aromtization, but instead the issue of the imbalance of estro/test

curious about resveratrol though

 

[bigschmidt821]

This is exactly the thinking behind developing the product by the name of POST Cycle Support. So many people don't want to worry if they are going to get busted it just gives you another option.


CROWLER

if i am correct:
sinner designed this as a reach out to people who wont use a SERM as he is a good friend of mine and i trust his knowledge i say go with it and an AI like trans. formestane or another AI of choice

 

[Botch]

I think that Dermacrine Sustain will do just fine. I don't believe in running a steroidal AI along side it because it could have a negative impact. I bet you would be covered pretty solid by running both Sustain and Post Cycle Support together for a PCT. I'm a week away from doing a dermacrine Sustain ONLY PCT, but I have a SERM on hand just in case. From what I have read though Sustain has been enough for guys coming off year long cycles of test so I'm not too worried. I am also not gyno prone, but for those of you who are I would be worried that Sustain might not be enough.

 

[EasyEJL]

I think that Dermacrine Sustain will do just fine. I don't believe in running a steroidal AI along side it because it could have a negative impact. I bet you would be covered pretty solid by running both Sustain and Post Cycle Support together for a post cycle therapy. I'm a week away from doing a dermacrine Sustain ONLY PCT, but I have a SERM on hand just in case. From what I have read though Sustain has been enough for guys coming off year long cycles of test so I'm not too worried. I am also not gyno prone, but for those of you who are I would be worried that Sustain might not be enough.

did you log your cycle on another board? just out of interest

 

[Botch]

No I haven't logged this cycle. But for everyone who is curious about Dermacrine Sustain, I am considering making a log of my PCT. However I will not have bloodwork so I don't know how helpful it will be. My cycle wasn't exactly mild...more of a medium cycle so it will be interesting to see how PCT goes. I don't want to clog up this thread by posting my cycle so if you're interested PM me.

 

[Travis]

I think that Dermacrine Sustain will do just fine. I don't believe in running a steroidal AI along side it because it could have a negative impact. I bet you would be covered pretty solid by running both Sustain and Post Cycle Support together for a post cycle therapy. I'm a week away from doing a dermacrine Sustain ONLY PCT, but I have a SERM on hand just in case. From what I have read though Sustain has been enough for guys coming off year long cycles of test so I'm not too worried. I am also not gyno prone, but for those of you who are I would be worried that Sustain might not be enough.

Oh my gawd! You took the words right out of my mouf! (in particular the bold stuff)

I think I have more to add later...

 

[The_Reverend]

Does anyone have an opinion on using 6-oxo extreme for PCT? I realize that it's expensive but lets assume money isn't a factor.

 

[bigschmidt821]

6 oxo extreme looks ok, i mean it is the original 6 oxo with some goodies i say buy it in bulk from the planet

 

[The_Reverend]

6 oxo extreme looks ok, i mean it is the original 6 oxo with some goodies i say buy it in bulk from the planet

I'm sick of capping to be honest with you. ALCAR, PLCAR, piracetam, etc. The list goes on and on. Instead, I ended up buying 3 bottles of 6-oxo extreme from the planet.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'd double dose it the first week, regular dose after that for a couple weeks, then taper off at the end. But I think it could work. try taking it for a month sometime at regular dose with no other supplements

 

[amicold]

For what it's worth, if you know where to go you can still get SERMs with ease. I'd just be wary of ordering from domestic "research" sites.

 

[drewh10987]

This is an easy answer:

1. Dermacrine Sustain: contains lots of goodies, including resveratrol using a TDS which should lead to higher absorption rates vs. oral.

2. Use regular Dermacrine during the cycle: should help keep HPTA up n running (similar to using hcg) thereby reducing suppression and making post cycle therapy easier.

3. Use natural test boosters (try and use some of each different types of natty test boosters: trib product, longjack, horny goat weed, ZMA, etc; dont limit yourself to one type, use a multi-pronged approach here to attack this)

4. Use an AI (since most take several weeks to kick in, this is good b/c you might want some amt of estrogen at the beginning of the cycle)

5. If you are going to use ATD I would wait until a couple of days into the PCT

6. Anti-cort supps (as described above)

bb

I have been considering running an Epi pulse similar to this, but I was planning on running Sustain throughout the cycle and then for another four weeks afterwards as the basis of my PCT. Do you think it would be better to run regular Dermacrine during and then follow up with Sustain in PCT.

 

[thundergod]

ECTOmorph----That was an excellent write-up on resveratrol. It must be good because 6-oxo extreme, post cycle support, and the new biotest rez-v has it in it. So if ergopharm,anabolic innovations, and biotest endorse it, I would think this resveratrol might be the thing for us to look at instead of DIM,calcium d-glucarate and other legal estrogen modulators that don't work very good.:thumbsup:

 

[Strategic]

It's always good to have a SERM on hand, but they aren't always necessary for PCT depending on what type of cycle you're running. If you run test (or any additional suppressive hormone) for long periods of 12 weeks or more, you'll need a SERM for sure. However, with some of these new products like epistane, phera, hdrol, etc. that you're running solo for 4 weeks or less, you may not need to include a SERM in your PCT. If you are prone to gyno or show any signs of it developing, obviously jump on the SERM immediately. Otherwise, you can have a very successful recovery using some of the products mentioned by UNCfan and yourself. I personally just finished a 4 week run of HDrol (which by the way is one of my favorite new compounds) and had an awesome PCT using formestane, mass fx, and cycle support. Of course, everyone is different in how their bodies react to compounds, but I feel this PCT was just right in my case.