Havoc Help Required Please
- 06-02-2007, 12:27 PM
Havoc Help Required Please
Hello everyone, I was hoping for some advice on RPN's Havoc. Myself and 2 friends have started on it 2 weeks ago and we had a few questions that maybe some of you can answer.
First of all whats the limit to how long you should really be taking it for? I see some people only taking it for 3 weeks but others taking it for 8 weeks. We were thinking about 6-7 to get a good effect from it.
Next point is about after the cycle. I have read several posts about this and while I see there are many products available to use during and after a cycle, we opted for what seemed affordable and got 6-oxo. The question is this: once you have completed your post cycle therapy how long is it before you can go back on the havoc? Could I for example use for 6 weeks havoc, 4 weeks 6-oxo and 6 weeks havoc again? Or is that madness?
Would it help to take the 6-oxo at the same time as the Havoc or would it be ok to introduce it for the final week of Havoc and continue for a further 4 weeks longer?
We have been wondering about this a lot and would really appreciate it if someone who knows about this could help. Thanks!
By the way we are supplementing with milk thistle, strong multi vitamins and omega oils if thats any help.
- 06-02-2007, 12:42 PM
heres what u need
oh and if you dont like my words heres a thread that you can trust even more read this and take a look. No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
- 06-02-2007, 01:25 PM
Thanks Grila thats really useful reading that. I hadn't heard of that before; I just saw lots of people bigging up 6-oxo. I did like your words; honesty is more important to me here than anything else.
I did however pick up from that post that I'm not going to be able to get hold of any SERMs as they are prescribed so I guess I will follow your advice and go 4 weeks. Will the 6-oxo do me any good at all then or have I wasted my money? Whats it for if it isn't for regulating your levels? Thats the impression I got of what it did from the website.
Any more comments and help greatly appreciated! Thanks.
06-02-2007, 01:42 PM
dude no offence
but you should do alot more research before you consider doing anything hormonal like havoc
because you obviously dont really have a clue
first of all you NEED a SERM for pct
its mandatory for keeping your rebound estrogen out of your receptors while trying to get your hormone levls back to normal during pct so you dont gt gyno
for havoc you should just do a 4 week cycle
6 oxo is a waste of money it does boost your testosterone but it almost totally antagonizes estrogen which you dont want
you always want a small amount of estrogen
or you will have weak joints and such
also havoc is methylated so you will need more liver protectors then just milk thistle
and for pct
you will need a serm
and a testo booster
along with other cycle support supps
im not trying to be a **** or whatever
but havoc is a designer steroid
and you need to do alot of reasearch so you actually know what your putting into your body
and know how to counteract these side effects
because you can screw up your liver
your endocrine system
06-02-2007, 03:33 PM
06-03-2007, 10:49 AM
Thanks guys I really appreciate the advice. I did a lot of research but obviously not enough. People just weren't asking these basic questions. You really seem to know what you are talking about so I can really take the advice seriously
With regards to one of my original questions, can you go back on to something like havoc after lets say 4-8 weeks off? Does it need to be left longer? What I'm trying to get at is whether the PCT is enough on its own or do you need some more weeks with no supplements in your system to get yourself back to normal.
I will try and get hold of some of that liver longer. It sounds like the ticket. Cheers.
06-03-2007, 11:06 AM
Just a thought - if the 6-oxo raises test (which we do want) and antagonises estrogen (which we don't want) then would something like tribulus be a good idea? Or is it going to have a similar result? I was just thinking of introducing it at the end of the cycle as I really don't think we are going to be able to get hold of the SERMs that you have recommended. I accept that its not going to be as good but its probably better than nothing.
Thanks for your patience in answering these questions.
06-03-2007, 12:22 PM
06-03-2007, 12:24 PM
06-03-2007, 12:26 PM
06-03-2007, 12:41 PM
You can find serms if you do a google search. Type in research chems and look for tamoxifen citrate aka nolvadex. You will find plenty of places that sell it. Do yourself a big favor and pick some up. As for your question about the length of time to wait until you do another cycle the the formula is time on + time on pct= time off. so a 4 week cycle plus 4 week pct = 8 weeks off before another cycle.
06-03-2007, 01:12 PM
Once again thanks everyone for the quick answers and superb advice. I will check that all out online now and save that 6-oxo for another time altogether as suggested.
06-03-2007, 02:42 PM
seriously though man
just do alot more research like alot
you need to know aboslutely everything about it
so you know how to deal with certain situations during cycle and off
just dont want to see another guy **** himself up
06-03-2007, 07:56 PM
I'm very keen to learn, I just thought I knew enough but clearly didn't. I want to try that Advanced PCT with Liver Longer. I only really got the Havoc cos I was buying something readily available that seemed to have low sides and good results. While researching SERMs earlier I was a little put off to say the least and I don't want to put more stuff into my body that I know very little about. That may sound stupid but the Advanced PCT product is a lot more attractive to me even though i know its not going to work quite as well.
Assuming I complete a 4-week course of Havoc, do I just start the PCT the very next day or would some people start the course a few days before the end of the Havoc cycle (to ease off it gradually)?
Once again I'm very grateful for your help in this matter.
06-03-2007, 07:58 PM
you need a serm man
to control rebound estrogen and to boost low testo after a cycle
you will find a way to get one
and reguards to when you start your pct
the day after your last dose of havoc
06-03-2007, 08:57 PM
I found it pretty cheap. How safe is it to use? The 3 of us are unsure about them but would appreciate some reassurance on the matter. I see there is generic nolvadex and brand name nolvadex. Does it matter which one? They seem identical. Am I to assume its 10mg a day for 4-8 weeks?
Could I just ask if I stick to the advice given here do I have anything else to look out for? I'm hoping to have hormone levels in check and liver looked after. Going to start the PCT as soon as havoc finishes and allow twice as long as the course lasted before I consider started another one.
06-03-2007, 09:21 PM
06-03-2007, 09:22 PM
06-03-2007, 09:25 PM
nolvadex= tamoxifen citrate
you are going to be buying the research chemical tamoxifen citratre, if you do things correctly
post cycle therapy-
40mgs a day for a week
20mgs a day for a week
20mgs a day for a week
10mgs a day for a week
LOW dose 6-oxo throughout or you can finish up with a 5th week of 6 oxo after the tamoxifen is done
06-04-2007, 07:57 AM
man must be a bunch of teenagers....totally clueless. take 30 caps of havoc for 3 days and youll be set!
06-04-2007, 08:09 AM
06-04-2007, 08:13 AM
06-04-2007, 08:15 AM
06-04-2007, 08:32 AM
its just irratating when people ask for advice, then get good advice, are told to research, yet come back with the same crap and ask the most elementary questions showing no real self motivation or seriousness of using steroidal products, get a clue. I feel like killing someone! almost unreal, like he's a some sort of well mannered good grammar speaking troll trying to disguise itself.
Im sorry im a little stressed.
Last edited by pistonpump; 06-04-2007 at 08:34 AM. Reason: feel like an a$$
06-04-2007, 11:01 AM
Look, if you haven't got anything nice to say don't say anything. I don't mind people being honest if they are being constructive. You don't have to be a teenager to be new to Havoc or similar products and I'm not one plus I don't drink at all. I know you are stressed but don't take it out on someone else. As for me asking basic questions - if more people like me were asking the basic questions then less people like me would be using products like Havoc incorrectly. I believe that there is no such thing as a stupid question, only the ones that are not asked.
Moving on to what I had got to say for today. The basic fact that this SERM is illegal is enough to put me off on its own. The Havoc seemed like a good idea as its a powerful product with low sides and is legal (if only for a while). I have taken your advice on board but I really don't want to go down the road of illegal drugs (even if they are good for you). I'm going to ditch the Havoc altogether and go for something a bit safer in future.
06-04-2007, 11:06 AM
06-04-2007, 11:37 AM
But there can be some issues to look out for with nolvadex.
I think the main one would be if you start having vision problems, like blurred sight, then it's advisable to discontinue it because it might lead to permanent eye damage. Not everyone will be affected like this, but it's something to be aware of. If this ends up being the case you'll need to look into a different SERM.
06-04-2007, 12:14 PM
Thanks for that warning if I do change my mind and go for the SERM that would be useful to know. I read abot that on a few sites yesterday but wasn't sure how common it was.
06-04-2007, 01:07 PM
tamoxifen isnt a class 3 scheduled substance like steroids.
its a major gray area if you are "caught" with a "research chemical". the most a police officer would or could do is take it from you. and to be honest he probably wouldnt even be inclined to do that, if he even realized what it was.
if you dont get tamoxifen, you are taking an enormous risk. you NEED a SERM. the aromtase only post cycle therapies always seem to end up not working in one way or the other.
dont be stupid
06-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Please be very clear that you are taking a product that will affect your hormone levels. The same hormones that control many bodily processes. You like living and living well??? Study, research and follow Good advice
Guide to Post Cycle Therapy(P.C.T)
06-04-2007, 01:37 PM
And I'd listen and follow the advice that others are giving here. Coming off this cycle without a SERM is not recommended. And like Jomi said, if you're not acquiring the SERM for research purposes, it may be illegal and dishonest, but unless you're planning on purchasing mass quantities and redistributing them, I wouldn't be concerned with being arrested or charged.
I'd really reconsider getting a SERM. Even if you do have to be dishonest to acquire it, either that or risk even worse, long-term consequences to your well-being.
06-04-2007, 03:24 PM
You guys give great advice. Totally different from someone else I asked who has been using the real thing for years but I guess thats human nature that everyone will have a different explantion and opinion. He told me that because Havoc doesn't aromatise I really don't have much to worry about. I told him what I read about that not mattering as a + b = c and the hormones will balance out and estrogen will rise but he says it won't rise as much as an aromatising steroid and I will be fine taking 6-oxo. this didn't make much sense to me as 6-oxo suppresses estrogen but I sort of understood what he meant from a different perspective. Anyway the point I'm making is that you guys seem to know an awful lot and thanks for urging on the cautious side as thats what I want really. I wouldn't want you to tell me everythign was fine when its not.
Just some extreme questions to ask now as it would help me understand things a bit better. Before you laugh I wasn't actually thinking of doing these things...
First of all what would happen if you took the Havoc for a long period of time (lets say 12 weeks or longer) what would start to happen to your body. And what would happen if you took it all year round as I know some people would actually do (I have no intention of doing this).
Secondly what happens if you use something that keeps your natural Testosterone production going for the duration of a 4-6 week cycle of Havoc (for example tribulus). Obviously not a good idea but what would happen as you were doing it and when you stopped it (either with keeping the tribulus going or stopping it at the same time)?
Thirdly what would happen If you did your Havoc for 4 weeks, took your SERM for 4 weeks and went back to Havoc again?
Similarly what would happen if you did that but went to 6-oxo immediately after the SERM followed by Havoc again. So Havoc 4 weeks, SERM 4 weeks then 6-oxo 4 weeks and back to Havoc again. This is the one I'm most curious about as I'd like to know how your body responds to be shifted from one supplement/chemical to another and back to the start again. I would say that your body needs rest and needs to get back to normality but just asking as I'm curious.
I know some of them are extreme examples and questions but it will help me learn as they are questions that are springing up in my mind. Perhaps I should make that quote from early my catchphrase - "There are no stupid questions, only the ones that are not asked." Thanks!
06-04-2007, 04:31 PM
Tribulus is believed to increase levels of luteinizing hormone (LH) which is a hormone that is responsible for stimulating the body to begin producing more testosterone. With prolonged use, you won't shut down natural testosterone production, but my understanding is that your body will adjust to the heightened LH levels and make that a new baseline, hence no more extra test production.Secondly what happens if you use something that keeps your natural Testosterone production going for the duration of a 4-6 week cycle of Havoc (for example tribulus). Obviously not a good idea but what would happen as you were doing it and when you stopped it (either with keeping the tribulus going or stopping it at the same time)?
Most anabolic steroids reduce LH levels over an extended period of time, thus shutting down natural testosterone production. However, I've read or heard claims that Havoc does not have such a pronounced effect on LH and actually keeps it pretty elevated.
So, you could introduce the tribulus during a cycle and likely produce some added benefit, but then you're desensitizing yourself to it. It's best to save it for a post cycle therapy plan, because that's when you'll need it most. But in the absence of any anabolic cycle, you'll still want to cycle tribulus to prevent adaptation.
Havoc is toxic to the liver. So are SERMs, some more than others. With this plan you never give it a break, and damage will be done. Additionally, you'll likely see less potent results from Havoc's anabolic benefit and also from the SERMs ability to recover you from the cycle.Thirdly what would happen If you did your Havoc for 4 weeks, took your SERM for 4 weeks and went back to Havoc again?
I'd agree that time off from all supplements is good because they can increase the stress load on you body. Especially in this case, all those supplements influence your hormones, so your body never gets a chance to find its own natural baseline again. But that's an interesting plan that I'd like to see what other people would say about it.Similarly what would happen if you did that but went to 6-oxo immediately after the SERM followed by Havoc again. So Havoc 4 weeks, SERM 4 weeks then 6-oxo 4 weeks and back to Havoc again. This is the one I'm most curious about as I'd like to know how your body responds to be shifted from one supplement/chemical to another and back to the start again. I would say that your body needs rest and needs to get back to normality but just asking as I'm curious.
My thoughts would be that there's not enough time between when each new cycle starts and the last one ended. In this case, it would probably be best to wait 6-8 weeks from when you finish with the SERM. So maybe another 4 weeks after the 6-oxo without anything.
06-04-2007, 08:49 PM
Great answers bitterplacebo! Thank-you very much for the insights there. Im gradually learning more about the body and risks involved. I guess we all have to start somewhere so thanks for your patience
I'm glad I came up with something that you found interesting there. I figured that everyone is talking about cycles but I rarely, if ever, hear about several cycles being planned one after another for maximum benefits and how those benefits are optimised while keeping the body as healthy as possible. Clearly your body needs a break from time to time so I guess thats why we talk about one cycle at a time. I have used tribulus many times in the past and had a fair idea of how it worked but now you have more or less cleared up any doubts I had about it. I understand 3 weeks off it is enough for your blood to return to a normal enough state.
06-04-2007, 10:53 PM
As an FYI, although popularly believed to increase testosterone through LH, the actual studies of tribulus don't show this.
Tribulus does possess aphrodisiac properties but this appears to be related to an ability to increase nitrogen oxide production.
J Ethnopharmacol. 2005 Oct 3;101(1-3):319-23.Click here to read Links
The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men.
Neychev VK, Mitev VI.
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Medical University, 2 Zdrave str., Sofia-1431, Bulgaria. firstname.lastname@example.org
OBJECTIVE: The aim of the current study is to investigate the influence of Tribulus terrestris extract on androgen metabolism in young males. DESIGN AND METHODS: Twenty-one healthy young 20-36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125 kg were randomly separated into three groups-two experimental (each n=7) and a control (placebo) one (n=7). The experimental groups were named TT1 and TT2 and the subjects were assigned to consume 20 and 10 mg/kg body weight per day of Tribulus terrestris extract, respectively, separated into three daily intakes for 4 weeks. Testosterone, androstenedione and luteinizing hormone levels in the serum were measured 24 h before supplementation (clear probe), and at 24, 72, 240, 408 and 576 h from the beginning of the supplementation. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 15.75+/-1.75 nmol/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 16.32+/-1.57 nmol/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 17.74+/-1.09 nmol/l) (p>0.05)), androstenedione (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 1.927+/-0.126 ng/ml); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 2.026+/-0.256 ng/ml); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 1.952+/-0.236 ng/ml) (p>0.05)) or luteinizing hormone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.662+/-0.274U/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.103+/-0.869U/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 4.170+/-0.406U/l) (p>0.05)) levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties. The study will be extended in the clarifying the probable mode of action of Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins.
PMID: 15994038 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
06-05-2007, 07:59 AM
Thats quite interesting to hear as I haven't heard too many people talking about this. There must be something working to boost your workouts and aggression so much while using it (speaking from a personal experience) and it sounds like it's not what the commonly held belief was and is. I don't think its one of those products that does little and its "all in your mind" however as I have used the supplement a few times and have to say you can feel the effects. I would even go as far as to say I would feel more of an effect off tribulus than I would off Havoc. Of course, feeling something working and the thing actually working are two different things but I have to say up to now I always got my biggest leifts and best shape while using tribulus rather than nothing at all.
06-05-2007, 08:18 AM
That's interesting to hear about tribulus. I wasn't a big fan, and now I'm even more skeptical. But even if it does make you feel like it increased testosterone, through some other means, it could still be beneficial. A placebo effect can still be rather potent.
06-05-2007, 09:01 PM
Just a couple of other questions that probably sound silly but I'd like to know the answers anyway if you don't mind
First of all, if the body adapts to the Havoc, changing the levels of natural test production as it is getting it from another source, then why don't people take like one week on then one week off and repeat? I know this is bad practice and wrong but can you just explain why?
Secondly, I notice that people are taking, for example, 20mg for the first week followed by 30mg for weeks 2-4. I can understand why it increases as the body gets used to it a little (not so much of a shock to the system). Why not ease off for the final week or even an extra week. This would mean either 20mg on week 4 or 10-20mg on weeks 5. I wasn't going to try it as I haven't heard anyone else suggest it but I was just wondering why. I even heard one piece of advice was to go to 40mg for the final few days.
06-05-2007, 11:55 PM
it is called pulsing
where you can take it 3 times per week
preferably on lifting days
so first week
first day you would start at 10 mg
the second dose 20 mg
the third dose 30 mg
then every dose during second week 40 mg
then 2 weeks off
then 40 mg during the fifth week
and sixth week
for this technigue you will not need a pct
and it was cause minimal shutdown if any!!!
you have to see how your body reacts to the substance your putting in your body
like to see if you have any side effects
thats why you would start at 10
if none or they are minimal
you would move up to 20 to increase gains as you said before you get adapted to the dose and without changing the dose
the gains will not be as good and then same thing if you have no sides or they are minimal on that dose you woukd move up
and for the last week you would make it the highest dose
to keep the gains or increase them.
Then the day after your last dose you start your pct
and if your pct is chosen and done properly
you will recover nicely
with a few more pounds to show off
06-06-2007, 07:00 AM
Comprehensive answers. Thanks very much. I like the idea of pulsing as I won't get the shutdown. Am I to assume the gains will be much less as a result of not taking it as often?
I'm into my third week of Havoc today and I still feel great. My muscles are really packing on size and my arms especially are the biggest they have ever been (and its arms day today! ye-ha!) For anyone who hasn't used this particular pro-hormone I have to say it really puts you in a great mood all the time. It acts like an anti-depressant, I suppose you could say. Now I know why people abuse them and stay on for too long. I will do my 90 tablets and thats me done - I don't want to risk it for a biscuit.
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