Havoc Help Required Please

[gabber]

Haha I enjoyed watching some clips of Ronnie there. hes a real character.

Thanks for the answers guys I have a good idea of what I'm going to do now. I have some tribulus left over so I will use that as an added extra as I can't see it doing me any harm. I may save the Advanced PCT for a PCT to 3AD as another cycle. Can I just ask would it be worth using Advanced PCT with Havoc for the final week to ease off it? Could I do this with the SERM or would it be counter-productive (I can't anyway cos I don't have it yet but just asking for greater understanding of the matter).

Just had a read at Lean Xtreme and I'm liking what I have read (but then I suppose they always sound good don't they) so will opt for that and its pretty cheap too. All the things are pretty cheap but they invariable do all add up! Well worth it though to get and keep the gains I have had lately. My skull crushers have increased by over 10KGs in 3 weeks. Bench press went up 15KG. Most back cable exercises up 15KG. Bicep curls up 20%. Dumbell shoulder press up 5KG in each hand. Scary biscuits! Best of all no sides.

 

[gabber]

Hi Gixxer, I don't seem to have any libido problems right now I'm just wanting to keep as much of my gains as possible to be honest and want to get back to the Havoc by the start of September. If the worst comes to the worst I will just tell the girlfriend I drank too much water haha no really I am ok just don't wanna lose any of my precious muscle after being so delighted in acquiring it.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Yeah, it's up to you if you want to save the Advanced PCT. I don't think it's necessary at all to ease off the Havoc by using the AdvPCT, but you can kind of do the same thing with the SERM.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/37790-running-serm-inverse.html

That's a huge thread about the topic of how some feel is a good way to use an AI with a SERM.

And with regards to libido, some AIs have a reputation for lowering it quite drastically. Don't think one of them is Advanced PCT, but thought it worth mentioning so you are aware.

 

[TeamSavage]

I don't think taking an AI with nolva is counterproductive, it's just not necessary and probably won't provide any additional benefit. IMO, it makes more sense to save to AdvPCT for later when you might need an AI specifically (for example, on-cycle with a wet compound to reduce bloat, or in an NHA stack combined with a product containing Nettle Root like MassFX or ActivaTe). You're right that the cost of the supplements do add up, which is why it's good to separate the necessities (like nolva, anti-cort, Cycle Support) from the nonsense (like test boosters).

 

[gabber]

OK guys things are still going swimmingly, my strength continues to go up through the roof! Just a few more things to say.

I forgot to mention during this topic that I possess a bottle of ALRI Restore which I bought a while back. I take it this stuff is the same as the 6-oxo? Or is it any different? I read a post about a guy inversely stacking it with nolva and wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do.

I have just done an hour and a half of solid research and something that struck me was people discussing joint and tendon pains. I learned that this is due to low estrogen levels and estrogen strengthens these joints and tendons. My question is related to this as I have noticed such pains recently. I don't know if I am being a hypochondriac but my shoulders are cracking if I actively rotate them about and I had a touch of what seemed like tennis elbow today during cage fighting training. I have also had a strained tendon (or something) at the back of my knee for about 15-20 days now. Are these anything to do with using Havoc? I am not all that worried about them just yet but will this trend continue for much longer if I am suffering from low estrogen?

I understand there is going to be a "rebound" of estrogen when I come off the Havoc which is why I'm going to need Nolvadex. I understand that the Nolvadex will allow my estrogen levels to remain unchecked and thus allow them to rise but stop the heightened levels from having an effect on my body (gyno etc), does this not mean that after 4 weeks of Nolvadex that the levels are going to be high anyway? Or will they start to drop after week 2 for example?

If anyone can answer these questions I will be very grateful. Im more curious than worried about the low estrogen thing but I want to know more about ALRI restore as I tried a few websites and they all have the same text copied in them which doesn't help too much. Is it basically the same as 6-oxo? I heard that Rebound XT is great for ramping up in a stack with Nolvadex although it can be rough on the libido. As for libido, things are going ok but what would help if things start to go a bit stale? I heard talk of fenugreek. Is it any good? I guess this is the first time I have done a PCT so I would like to know what to expect and when my libido can be expected to return to normal.

Thanks again!

 

[bitterplacebo]

I didn't look closely at all the ingredients of ALRI's Restore, but it does look like an aromatase inhibitor with other stuff. You can use it with nolvadex if you want to. It's not the "right" thing to do, just some people like to add it in there. In your case, I'd say it's not a high priority addition.

I do think joint pains can be caused by low estrogen. It's been terrible for me sometimes if I take high doses of AI. It might also be because you've gained more muscular strength and now your tendons and joints are not used to the heavier loads and need to catch up.

With nolvadex, I don't know how it works in too much detail, but it's my understanding that it will prevent estrogen from causing those negative effects you mentioned and also it will help stimulate higher levels of your testosterone production again. Other SERMs I think can be better at this latter part, but the point is that your testosterone will be allowed to come up and balance out to normal levels along with the estrogen.

For libido, I'm not real sure, but it shouldn't be hard to find out more around the boards.

 

[gabber]

Thanks for your contribution bitterplacebo. The way i see it is this - I have 4 things to worry about.

1. High estrogen - counteract this with nolvadex.

2. High cortisol - counteract with Lean Xtreme.

3. Liver problems - prevented by using Liver Longer.

4. Low testosterone - ... this is where my next question arises...

What you say about nolvadex helping testosterone return is good. I understand that high estrogen will be balanced by high testosterone over time. IN the short term however I would like to get it up a bit faster. A few people have said that test bosters are a waste of time (tribulus) but I'm going to want something like this or else face losing gains. Libido is ok for now so I'm not too concerned just yet.

A seperate point - I have to wait on delivery of nolvadex and it seems like it could take up to 2 weeks or maybe longer if I'm unlucky. This could mean running into a 5th or 6th week of Havoc which ideally I don't want to do. I'm going to use the Havoc 'till the nolvadex arrives. is this sensible? From what I have read it seems like the best option as nolvadex is that important.

 

[bitterplacebo]

For your concern about low natural testosterone production, I don't think there's much you can do about increasing it in the short term besides the stuff you are already going to use. You can, however, cause short term elevations in testosterone levels (not the production of Test, though).

This is what the I feel the AI is good at doing. By using one, you should be able to increase the levels of your free testosterone because there is less aromatizing activity going on.

You might also cause a small enhancement of testosterone levels if you supplement with DHEA. It may convert to testosterone and credible sources claim it's not suppressive to natural test production at doses up to 200mg. I think it might help with cortisol and libido also. But it's still a hormone and you'd need to be careful and look into it more before adding it in.

A five or six week cycle I think would be fine as long as your not having bad side effects. However, you might want to take more time off if that's what ends up happening, and this might be an issue for you.

 

[gabber]

Yeah I trained today on my chest. I went heavy on tris 2 days ago and was going to do wide grip chest and then on to flyes and pull overs to minimise strain. As soon as I started benching, my elbow problem came back so I left it well alone. Tomorrow I'm doing my back and the day after I'm doing my shoulders. I will limit the shoulder presses to give this time to heal as I'm really looking forward to getting a new PB on dumbell chest press next week. My elbow feels ok now as it did earlier today before the workout. I was probably stupid trying to benchpress so soon after injuring it but thats what happens, I guess, when you are wanting to make the most of a supplement that you are only using for a month or so. I will go away and do some more research on the matter. I really am learning a lot but thats because I'm so interested in everything going on.

With regards to the Ai and the DHEA, I will deifnitely just be leaving those alone as I don't want to complicate things with my first time using Nolvadex. I suppose it might take a little while for the testosterone to come back to normal but I feel ok at the moment so I'm not worried. People say tribulus is crap but it has worked for me in the past so I will try it again as its non-hormonal (well, it manipulates testosterone in some peoples opinion).

Up to 6 weeks it is then. I'm very mindful of the fact that theres nothign wrong with a short cycle as it means you are safer AND can get back on your next cycle more quickly. Under the circumstances though I will wait for the delivery.

Thanks for the advice. Time for some more reading

 

[bitterplacebo]

With tribulus, I do tend to notice more aggression and possibly greater libido. Though, those two things are prevalent in me anyways. But I really wouldn't attribute any progress I've made to the supplement. Don't worry too much about your testosterone anyway, you'll still be able to make strength gains and stuff. Just you might need to change your workout routine since your recovery abilities won't be so great.

Sounds like you've got things figured out, let us know how things go.

 

[SwolE Mammoth]

I did however pick up from that post that I'm not going to be able to get hold of any SERMs as they are prescribed so I guess I will follow your advice and go 4 weeks.

You can get SERMS. Research google or board sponsors on certain sites Get yourself some nolva.

 

[gabber]

Got it thanks and starting it thursday

 

[gabber]

I actually have a heavy day planned for wednesday. I was just wondering if you I should start the Nolva a day later seeing as I'm going to want the best recovery possible for my last heavy day. I guess I'm asking this cos I'm curious as to whether the Havoc keeps working for a day or 2 after u stop it or does it only last like 8 hours in your body? I guess some expert will need to answer that lol.

 

[bitterplacebo]

I actually have a heavy day planned for wednesday. I was just wondering if you I should start the Nolva a day later seeing as I'm going to want the best recovery possible for my last heavy day. I guess I'm asking this cos I'm curious as to whether the Havoc keeps working for a day or 2 after u stop it or does it only last like 8 hours in your body? I guess some expert will need to answer that lol.

I've read it has a 6-8 hour half-life. This means half of a dose that you take will remain in your system 6-8 hours after the fact. Then this half will degrade at the same rate and you'll have a quarter of the original dose at 16 hours. And so on.

This means you'll continue to have a decent amount of it in your system the day after you stop your dosing, but the following night and 2nd day after will have a minuscule amount and you should have started a SERM.

I'm not clear on what problem you're seeing with your original intentions to take the Nolva starting Thursday and you have a heavy training day on Wednesday. Your last havoc dosing will be on Wednesday, then Thursday night would be a good time to take the SERM. You'll still be getting the benefits of Havoc on your heavy training day, and a little bit for the remaining of the next day. And the SERM won't suddenly cancel out the benefits of any Havoc that's still left in your system nor will it suddenly mean your recovery will decrease below normal, once you begin taking it.

 

[DaBulls]

i want to preface by just noting my intention isn't to hijack here, i just am looking into doing a similar-type cycle as gabber and wanted to just throw my plan out there and get an opinion...

i figured it'd be better than starting another thread about this, and i wanna cover every base before going into something like Havoc; so anyway, here's my plan:

weeks 1-4
-Havoc
-Cycle Support
-BCAA's
-Protein
-Creatine
-NOXPLODE
-Multi-V

weeks 5-8
-SERM (probably tamoxifen-citrate)
-Advanced post cycle therapy
-BCAA's
-Protein
-Multi-V

weeks 9-12
natural (well with protein, multi-v, bcaa's)

does that look good??? [thanks in advance for any help/advice, it's much appreciated!]

 

[bitterplacebo]

does that look good??? [thanks in advance for any help/advice, it's much appreciated!]

It would have been fine to start a new thread. It looks good, but there would be a few things you may want to consider.

1) The creatine + NOXplode seems redundant, and you could get by with one or the other. I would suggest probably NOXplode during cycle and then just creatine after the cycle. This way any increased cortisol (stress hormone) that the caffeine from NOXplode causes will not pose a big problem because your on an anabolic/androgenic steroid. But afterward the cycle, you don't want any extra source of cortisol. If you haven't bought the supplements yet, I would just throw NOXplode out altogether and just use some creatine throughout.

2) You might want to reconsider the Adv. post cycle therapy if you haven't already acquired it. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/69338-6-bromodione-post.html#post872690
Real recent discussion is going on about whether it will prevent or hinder full recovery from steroid use. I've heard good things about it otherwise, though.
An AI like Novedex XT, Rebound XT, other ATD derivitives, or a 6-oxo might be better if you want to be cautious.
Or no AI at all, I don't think you have too much to worry about with havoc.

3) Many would recommend that your "natural" weeks should be extended to week 16.

 

[DaBulls]

cool, ya i haven't bought everything yet, so i'll just axe the NOXplode and ya i'm gonna go w/ novedex xt instead of the advance post cycle therapy (thanks for the heads up on that)... so i gather from your comments about the caffeine that i should avoid caffeine throughout the cycle and afterward, is that correct??

and ya, i'll extend the natural. THANKS BIG TIME for the advice, i appreciate it.

 

[bitterplacebo]

cool, ya i haven't bought everything yet, so i'll just axe the NOXplode and ya i'm gonna go w/ novedex xt instead of the advance post cycle therapy (thanks for the heads up on that)... so i gather from your comments about the caffeine that i should avoid caffeine throughout the cycle and afterward, is that correct??

and ya, i'll extend the natural. THANKS BIG TIME for the advice, i appreciate it.

Sure. I don't think you'll be needing very high doses of the novedex xt, 2 caps is best for me. Anymore and my joints start bothering me and my libido takes a slight downer.

With caffeine it's just my intuition that tells me to stay away from it, particularly if you're trying to be letting your body recover.

 

[gabber]

Thanks Bitterplacebo I didn't know that was the way it worked with regards to half life. This means I can have a heavy day maybe taking 40mg of Havoc on that day and then start the Bolva the next day. Thanks!

Is there any reason that I shouldn't have taken tribulus at any stage of the Havoc cycle other than there being no actual studies to prove it works? I was thinking of using it for the last few days but not going to if it interferes with what I'm trying to achieve. As soon as I stop the Havoc I'm going to doble up the tribulus and start Lean Xtreme and Activate at the same time. I know its a lot of supplements but I have eneded up running this cycle into 5 and a half weeks and want a speedy recovery and continued gains during PCT. I know it doesn't do the bank balance any favours but is it otherwise ok to use all these supplements in this way to try and boost things along? I also bought saw palmetto to try and address any DHT issues and prostate complications. I also hear its good for the libido?

Don't worry about hijacking the thread DaBulls it helps when I see someone doing something similar to what I'm doing Hope it works out well for you. While on the subject, I'm using Kre-Alkalyn and Nitric Oxide when training and I'm getting an amazing pump off it (sometimes a little sore) but don't listen to me it's just my experience

 

[DaBulls]

cool, so how is everything in your cycle going? any side effects or ill effects from havoc?

 

[gabber]

I have to say everything is spot on. My gains would have been a bit more if I didn't get a slight injury to my elbow. Libido is ok, mood always good but short fuse as you would expect, however, not getting the alpha male effect that I was expecting. I got it with 1-AD but then again this isn't 1-AD. All in all this stuff is magic, I just can't wait to use it again! Of course you need to be careful with it and look after your liver and get other cycle support and not take it for too long etc but if you have a good enough idea of what you are doing this is a great product.

 

[bitterplacebo]

gabber,
Using tribulus during the Havoc cycle is fine. It wouldn't hurt anything and would even help you recover your natural test production if it works like it's supposed to (by elevating luteinizing hormone).

Lean Extreme, or any anti-cort, is an excellent addition to PCT.

Activate, I don't have experience with, but it sounds nice.

Saw palmetto, I also don't know a lot about, but would probably be a good addition to prevent any problems with prostate.

 

[gabber]

Thats what I wanted to hear! I will carry on as planned then. Thanks mate

 

[gabber]

Elbow recovered in time for chest workout. Set 2 new PBs and now I'm done with the havoc. Took 4 today as it was the final day and starting Nolvadex tomorrow. Started tribulus 2 days ago and its definitely had an effect - more than I was expecting in fact. My Lean Xtreme and Activate has not arrived in the post yet so is it ok to add them in a few days late? I'm guessing so but hope it doesn't mean I lose gains.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Elbow recovered in time for chest workout. Set 2 new PBs and now I'm done with the havoc. Took 4 today as it was the final day and starting Nolvadex tomorrow. Started tribulus 2 days ago and its definitely had an effect - more than I was expecting in fact. My Lean Xtreme and Activate has not arrived in the post yet so is it ok to add them in a few days late? I'm guessing so but hope it doesn't mean I lose gains.

nice bro. What were your overall gains from the cycle?

 

[gabber]

I noticed that weights were going up without even trying. Strangely, some exercises even went up that I hadn't been working on (probably due to secondary muscles being worked and suchlike) and ones that I was working hard on went up through the roof. Percentage wise I think I put on 20-30% strength and my bodyweight went up 12 pounds or so. My body has less bodyfat than when I started and I have been doing less cardio than usual. I think I set personal bests in every department. Well with a report like that you know its good stuff but the worst part was worrying about side effects but I can honestly say I didn't get any serious ones or any worth mentioning really. The worst part was that you don't feel like yourself and it's not an alpha male feeling as such although similar in some ways.

I would definitely use this again and I wish I could do 3 or 4 cycles a year but I'm not going to cos I will only get used to it. That brings me on to my next question really. If I have a few bottles of this and don't want to get used to it, what is a good prohormone to alternate it with for next time or time after? I might even just use something safer like 6-oxo for 4 weeks seeing as I have a bottle of it left over now. The other supplements still haven't arrived due to a postal strike so I'm just going to not use them and save them for when I do a more intense cycle.

 

[bitterplacebo]

You might want to look into 11-OXO or 3-AD (they're the same, but 3-AD isn't available now). As a standalone, I think it would be pretty mild, perhaps not the same potency of effects as Havoc/Epistane, but worthwhile. Together these also might be pretty fun. Other than these, you'd be looking at more potent things with the possibility of more side effects to worry about. But my experience doesn't extend that far to be able to recommend something in particular.

 

[gabber]

Thanks for the info again bitterplacebo. Definitely want to stay away from anything that will make me moody cos that can be dangerous if you crack. Maybe I will just go milder and then back to the Havoc next time. Don't fancy stacking 2 things together when I don't know what the outcome will be

 

[gabber]

Trained arms yesterday and had more strength than I thought but didnt push too heavy due to elbow problem. Am I right in thinking I should be training lighter anyway as my natural test is low? Anyone know when I should start lifting heavy again without compromising my gains?

 

[bitterplacebo]

You should try to train just as heavy as you were before and I would even try to make a little progress if you are feeling alright. So long as you aren't aggravating or causing injury, do the heavy stuff, but do less volume per workout. I feel you could keep strength/size this way and avoid overtraining. You also might want to thing about switching your training schedule around. Like if you have a workout exclusively for biceps/triceps you might consider putting biceps with back and triceps with chest to avoid exhausting yourself. Or you can keep a separate day for smaller parts like the deltoids and arms, but make them quick and relatively heavy workouts.

 

[gabber]

Had a quick shoulders workout tonight just did front raises, side raises and shrugs then doin my back tomorrow. Resisted temptation to do an extra set of each and went as heavy as I had got up to and it felt good. Can see how that would work.

 

[TeamSavage]

Lift heavy during P.C.T., but you can take volume and intensity down a notch. Same lifts and weights, but fewer sets. If you normally lift to failure, you might also stop 1-2 reps before failure for the first couple weeks.

 

[gabber]

Yea thats what I did today. I was surprised by my strength. It may even be more than it was last week. I guess I will know more day by day but I'm interested to see how I perform on back day next week. I have outgrown the weights stack i was using a month ago and now it looks like I am about to outgrow the one at the gym too I was prepared to lose some strength pretty rapidly but so far so good. I can't explain why this is happening if natural test is supposed to be low. I guess its only been a week tho and only the training I do now will be affected, and not noticed until next week.

I'm a bit concerned about a belly developping with these shorter less intense sessions. Would it be ok to go running every other day for say 20 mins or not really? I don't think its much.

 

[bitterplacebo]

I don't see much reason for strength to go down, it's not dictated so much by current hormone levels as much is it is by your current level of muscular development, fatigue, and glycogen storage. What will happen now that you're off an anabolic is that you will keep all the muscle tissue that you developed, but the ability to store carbs as glycogen will be slightly decreased along with your ability to recover from your training sessions. So if you're coming into your workout fully recovered for what you have to do that day, then your strength should be about the same. It's your potential for making progress in gaining more strength and mass that will be decreased during this time. That's how I look at it.

As for the running, as long as you're not feeling tired I think it's ok. But you may want to wait another week or so before you add it. You'd be surprised that decreasing the amount of time on weight lifting might actually help you progress better in terms of body composition and even strength.

 

[gabber]

I always thought that higher testosterone gave you more drive to lift more in the gym which may be true but I think your version of events is more like the bigger picture and the more useful to know way of looking at things. They fit in with what I have experienced too. I experienced true gains after the first week of havoc and still have my strength now which was shown on my PB yesterday so i have to agree with what you say; I just never really looked at things that way before.

How can the reduced time lifting help my strength though? I can understand it working that way if I had always been overdoing it before but perhaps the reason u say this works is because its a change for your body and we all know that changing your routine has its benefits.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Yeah, I meant less will turn out to be better for you if you had been training with too much volume for your body to handle. This time for you in particular is one in which it's likely that the same volume you used before will just be wasting effort, then you'll not have the proper energy to grow and develop from your exercise. You might be able to maintain your development level, but you won't be able to grow more because the exercise is just too taxing.

 

[DaBulls]

ok, i have a question about your workout routine while on-cycle. do you decrease the number of days between working a muscle group? either way, i guess what is a good recommendation for time in between working each muscle group? i usually do something like Mon - bi's & tri's, tues - cardio, wed - chest, legs, thurs - cardio, fri - back, shoulders...

i guess what i'm curious about is would it be more beneficial to try and do every group twice a week or so since havoc would be improving recovery time (i'm assuming?)?

 

[bitterplacebo]

ok, i have a question about your workout routine while on-cycle. do you decrease the number of days between working a muscle group? either way, i guess what is a good recommendation for time in between working each muscle group? i usually do something like Mon - bi's & tri's, tues - cardio, wed - chest, legs, thurs - cardio, fri - back, shoulders...

i guess what i'm curious about is would it be more beneficial to try and do every group twice a week or so since havoc would be improving recovery time (i'm assuming?)?

It's hard to give a definite answer for something like this. Remember that with those kinds of splits you can already work a muscle more than once a week. Usually it's once directly, and another indirect. Like your triceps is actually being used 3 tims, once directly on monday, again to support the chest on wed, and then lastly for shoulders on friday.

If you want to work something twice directly, I'd probably say do it to the larger muscle groups like legs, chest, back. And if you do this you could probably decrease the total volume of the work you're doing each day, ie. make it shorter and more intense. And give probably 3 days between each. Maybe something like Chest/Tris/Shoulders, Legs/abs, Back/Bis, off, then repeat and take 2 days off if necessary. Just an idea, but I think it would work well if you're consistent with the training, nutrition, and sleep part of it.

 

[DaBulls]

any updates on how things are goin gabber?

 

[gabber]

Things are great thanks man I am still lifting the same weight I got up to while using Havoc. Im training slightly differently as bitterplacebo recommended though which is not putting as much stress on the muscles. Who knows maybe this is a better way for me to train anyway lol. I will definitely increase the volume though once I feel up to it. Chest hurts today from yesterdays workout but I guess thats a sign I'm still growing. All in all very happy. I'm just worried that it won't be as good next time or that I'm doing long term damage that I have no idea about such as permanently lower testosterone in the long run.

I will finish with a question to help me understand something. Assuming Havoc is recommended for 4 weeks at 30mg a day: If you were to choose between 6 weeks at 30mg a day or 4 weeks at 50mg a day, what would be better for you in terms of health and in terms of results?

Personally, next time I'm thinking 5 weeks at 40mg a day just to add a bit more but don't like going to much over the 4 weeks - don't want any damage to the endocrine system.

DaBulls if you were asking me about my workout plan then I basically did what i normally do while on Havoc. I figure that while the muscles repair better this will not apply to ligaments. Lo and behold I now have sore elbows even from sticking to the same routine. The only thing I would have done that I wouldnt normally do would be shoulder press the day before arms day once or twice and thats about it.

 

[gabber]

The way I work my routine has to adapt to what else I'm doing outside training like going out with the gf or going to cage fighting classes. What I have been doing lately is legs tuesday, arms wednesday, shoulders without presses thursday, back friday, day off, chest sunday, maybe day off monday or hard abs workout but it can all change. I used to do chest and back twice a week but now once each. I didnt used to do an arms day at all but find it helps put on size. Think its wise to switch though so I will go back to my routine of chest twice a week soon enough. Basically though looking at your routine you could probably add a bit more in without overdoing it but like I say, circumstances dictate what you do and when you do it.

 

[bitterplacebo]

I will finish with a question to help me understand something. Assuming Havoc is recommended for 4 weeks at 30mg a day: If you were to choose between 6 weeks at 30mg a day or 4 weeks at 50mg a day, what would be better for you in terms of health and in terms of results?

This is just an opinion, not fact, but I would say the 6 weeks @ 30 mg for both health and results is better. With 50mg you may see diminishing returns (it will only be slightly more effective than a lower dose) and also you will probably notice more unwanted side effects. With the higher dose you are also making it more difficult for the liver to clear things from the system and so there's more potential for liver damage at higher doses. Why risk the negatives when a lower dose could get you nearly the same benefits without as much bad.

This is why you see people often taper the dosage up, they start with a dose that gives them good results, and as the results start slowing the dosage is increased. It's a good way to optimize results and minimize side effects. The only thing different is that you should probably take more time off with a 6-week plan before another cycle.

 

[gabber]

Yeah good points bitterplacebo, you gotta remember the liver I suppose especially when nolvadex is so toxic during PCT. I guess next time I will just add a little as you say cos I really don't want to overdo it and be greedy. I was hoping to start back on Havoc in September but some may say thats a bit soon. I would go for something else but I have loads of Havoc left over and know it works for me.

In other news, my body feels fine at the moment. Feel pretty normal as if I haven't used anything for ages. I'm off the tribulus now as I plan on a weeks rest maybe week after next. The plan is to use tribulus when I get back into training then introduce the Havoc in Septemeber. Undecided whether to run them both together. I went to the bodybuilding shop in town here and they only had a couple of tribulus products in. The one I bought was twice the price of the one I wanted but it has something in it to control estrogen. I asked the guy in the shop about it cos I didn't want something like 6-oxo thats going to antagonise estrogen and leave me low on levels right before I start into Havoc which does the same thing in a way.

The product is called ISA TEST by iSatori. If anyoen has heard of it please let me know if its ok to use for such a plan. I'm going to do my own research on it and if it doesn't seem right then I'm going to buy some cheap tribulus from the chemist and save this for another time.

 

[gabber]

While on the subject of not knowing what to use next time, what would be a good product for me to use instead of Havoc with similar gains. Please no aggression side effects cos I can't control my temper lol. I have heard that some have a long half-life but I don't think thats a good thing. Can anyone explain why you would take a product with a longer half-life. I don't have to worry about it showing up on tests or anything cos I don't compete in any sports so just whatever is safe enough to use with reasonable effects and results.

 

[gabber]

Was just reading about turinabol and it sounds good...

In the mean time, is there a good time i could use my 6-oxo up or not really? Im guessing not before September cos my tendons are still healing. Maybe in late Novemeber I could give it a blast as I will be finished my second cycle by then and should be recovered. It's not a product I am keen on using its just I have 2 bottles in my cupboard that are going to waste.

 

[bitterplacebo]

I think the 6-oxo would be best used in a situation where you are taking a steroidal product that has a high affinity for aromatizing to estrogen. The other situation is in pct to help elevate your natural testosterone production and testicular function.

 

[gabber]

So the first recommendation is to stack it? Interesting, what would you stack it with out of curiosity? I don't fancy using it in post cycle therapy cos enough people have warned me about getting the hormones balanced asap during PCT. I was either going to use it on its own or like you were saying (i think) to stack it with something that has a lot of estrogen sides.

 

[bitterplacebo]

So the first recommendation is to stack it? INteresting, what would you stack it with out of curiosity? I don't fancy using it in post cycle therapy cos enough people have warned me about getting the hormones balanced asap during PCT. I was either going to use it on its own or like you were saying (i think) to stack it with something that has a lot of estrogen sides.

Yes, stacking would be how some people would say to use it. You would stack it with things that are aromatizable. Here's a list that has some.

Aromatizable prohormones/ steroids include testosterone, testosterone precursors (4-androstenedione, 4-androstenediol), nortestosterone, nortestosterone precursors (19-nor-4-androstenedione, 19-nor-4-androstenediol), and synthetic anabolic steroids such as oxymetholone (Anadrol) and methandrostenolone (Dianabol).

It does have its uses in post cycle therapy for enhancing your natural testosterone production and testicular function. In my mind, it's not something that will get in the way of restoring your natural hormonal balance. You'll have lower estrogen levels while using it, but they easily recover after use is discontinued because all it does is prevent the aromatase enzyme from doing its job. So for particular suppressed people, it might do well to incorporate an AI in addition to SERM. You just have to do it smartly to try to avoid the side effects associated with lower estrogen.

You can also use it alone like you said for a safe and temporary boost in testosterone levels. You'll just have to play with the dose until you find one that you can stand in terms of any joint pain it might cause.

 

[gabber]

Thanks bitterplacebo, its good to know what my options are.

Well I have to report my shoulder preses have actually got weaker. I don't know if its down to the new bench I got or not lol cos all my other exercises are still strong.

I have now started to put some fat on all over compared to how I looked a couple of weeks ago. Back then it didn't seem to matter what I ate, I just never put any bodyfat on. Now though I put a bit on but I intend to introduce some cardio now that my cortisol levels are under control.

I can also report that my tendons are recovering as the right elbow isn't sore anymore when I lift and the left one doesn't niggle (probably after compensating for the right one) so all in all im pretty happy that things are getting back to normal with a few extra pounds to show off (as it was put earlier on in this thread)

 

[DaBulls]

hey gabber: i'm getting ready to do my cycle of havoc starting next week and was wondering if you could tell me specifically what you took for your post cycle therapy? so far i'm going w/ tamo and milk thistle... would it be wise to go w/ an anti-cort here?

also; would Retain2 be sufficient for an anticort?