Test E Cycle - do I need an AI?

[BigMattTx]

Im working on planning my first injectible cycle to be ran in a couple months.

Test E 1-12 600mg

Nolva and Lean Xtreme for PCT.

I'm wondering if I need to use an AI on cycle to control bloat?

Some say you do, some say you dont. What do you think?

 

[bpmartyr]

I say have it on hand in case you do and use it only as necessary.

 

[BigMattTx]

I have Nolva and Clomid on hand in case gyno or some estrogen related side occurs.

Is that sufficient?

 

[pistonpump]

I for one have that mantality of always wanting to stay somewhat lean. On my cycle though Im going to try my best to throw that away and get as big as possible. Bloat doesnt bother me, yet. It goes away later so thats not a problem. I have planned on taking AI on cycle but only for preventing gyno. Should I go with a low dose SERM on cycle or just run a very low dose AI throughout???

BP when you say use only if neccessary do you mean just take when bloating is too much? Im sure thats what you mean but, would you have to taper up and down to avoid estrogen rebound or just take when bloat is too much then stop when it subsides?

SOrry for asking my questions matt but i think it will help your thread and you too.

 

[B5150]

Some say you do, some say you don't. Some say an AI and some say an anti-e (Nolva). Some say wait for symptoms some say run it all along. All are valid.

I have banged my head against a wall on the contradictory opinions on the matter. Sometimes you have to find out what works for you for yourself. At the end of the day we can only learn from self experimentation. You can research your ass of and still, in the end, need to learn by our own trial and error.

For me, as an endo, aromatising hormones make me fat. I will knock down estrogen from all fronts.

Good luck

 

[pistonpump]

I have decided on running throughout at low dose for prevention and body comp. Guess youre right B, you have to just try. I have read reviews on certain protiens powders etc and when i taste them its sh1t but somehow others rave about it so its like that acronym TEHO.. (?) Since I already have Arimidex im going to run that .25-.50mg ED.

 

[BigMattTx]

Excellent!

I may just run Test by itself and see how that does me. I really dont want to have to place another order on my research site.

 

[BigMattTx]

Also, would ATD be sufficient in case I get too much bloat?

I kinda like the idea of seeing how test, by itself effects me with no other added variables.

That would help in future cycles for isolating sides/results.

 

[pistonpump]

an ATD or OTC AI will work too. There just isnt as much experiences of people running it for weeks on weeks at a time.

 

[BigMattTx]

an ATD or OTC AI will work too. There just isnt as much experiences of people running it for weeks on weeks at a time.

I think what I will do is just run the test and see how that does. If the bloat or estro effects are too much, I will implement ATD and order adex immediately.

I think I'll be alright.

 

[pistonpump]

correction *hope* lol.

I was going to try proviron as my anti e because of its added benefiets but have been advised not to on my cycle.

Are you still planning? Are you just running a Test only cycle?

 

[BigMattTx]

correction *hope* lol.

I was going to try proviron as my anti e because of its added benefiets but have been advised not to on my cycle.

Are you still planning? Are you just running a Test only cycle?

I'm still planning. I will probably run the cycle in december.

Yes, test only.

 

[meowmeow]

It is good to run test by itself your first time to see how your body reacts.

My first test cycle I kept A-dex on hand but did not use it untill one day 7 weeks into the cycle my feet got puffy (yes it is a rare but a normal possible reaction). I used A-dex for three days and the puffiness was gone.

The point is you can add an AI at anytime and you will quickly get a handle on bloat. There is no need to run it from the start unluess you want to. Just my 2 cents.

 

[rotarnomore]

Just my opinion. I'd like to know exactly how much arimidex to use because I was using .5mg a day and it did nothing for the bloat. I still recommend using it though. I never understood why you would wait for symptoms and then use it. I also believe that the less bloat you have, the lower you can keep your blood pressure (if it is a problem). It is a cheap preventative measure. One more input. I've used Provirons before and I love them. They definitely did help control bloat and really do a number on the libido (all that at only 25mg a day). But, I've never understood how they help act as an anti-E when they increase free testosterone levels (which should increase the possibilty of aromatization).

 

[BigMattTx]

Personally, Id think that an AI could inhibit some of the gains. Thats one good reason to only use it as needed.

 

[B5150]

Another myth and or opinion that seems to take merit without substantial evidence to back it up.

 

[glenihan]

if anything aromasin 12.5 eod IF needed at all ... keep a clean diet and low in sodium and you won't need it

 

[pistonpump]

yeah aromasin is ideal in my book out of the AI's but you gotta pay extra for that. Next time Ill use that or proviron.

 

[blackheart]

Everybody's different. Me, I need .5-1mg Adex/day on cycle or I start growing tits. I second the vote for Aromasin as well, I prefer it to Letro, as it's permanent (no rebound) and is said to be less harsh on lipids. I also like to go with a higher dose than you often see recommended for the first two weeks, like 25-50mg ED.

Others will go with no AI at or below 500mg/week, but I could never get away with that.

 

[glenihan]

aromasin doesn't negatively affect lipid values at all .. letro does

 

[BigMattTx]

Thanks for the info, Glen. Aromasin seems a bit harder to find and I've read that Arimidex is the 2nd best, under aromasin so I may order some.

 

[Skye]

Poviron is my pick for most things as it does a good job of keeping things in check. But really nobody NEEDS an AI, you can do everything you need with diet but that takes quit a bit of effort. As far as gains are concerned, ANYHING that reduces your estrogen levels will to some degree reduce your gains as estrogen itself will help you grow (that is why they include it in cattle pellets to start with). I don't know that it is correct to say that the effect is greater with one AI more so then another.

 

[RoboGiblets]

Alot of people run one cap of Rebound Reloaded at night to keep the bloat down. Thats the only really legitimate reason I can see keeping one around.

If your gyno gets out of control, rebound probably wont do anything anyway. You would need letrozole to smash it.

 

[BigMattTx]

Alot of people run one cap of Rebound Reloaded at night to keep the bloat down. Thats the only really legitimate reason I can see keeping one around.

If your gyno gets out of control, rebound probably wont do anything anyway. You would need letrozole to smash it.

I have Nolva on hand in for PCT and in case I get gyno. I have plenty in case I need to use it on cycle. I doubt that I will as I dont seem to be very succeptible to it. Plus, this is test only.

 

[Skye]

Alot of people run one cap of Rebound Reloaded at night to keep the bloat down. Thats the only really legitimate reason I can see keeping one around.

If your gyno gets out of control, rebound probably wont do anything anyway. You would need letrozole to smash it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stickies/50000-gyno-issues-prevention.html

 

[BigMattTx]

Skye,
I just read your gyno prevention thread...very nice.

Do you think I should worry about it on a test only cycle?

I really want to see how pure test does without any AI's or estrogen blockers so that I know whats doing what in future cycles.

Do I need to run 10mg Nolva throughout? I assume the chance for gyno on a low dose test only cycle is relatively low.

 

[Skye]

well I posted that link for the letro info (too many sides really) but at 600mg of test only I would only add it if you need it. It wouldn't hurt anything ether though. there is always a risk vs benifets ratio to weigh.

I wish I could post a thread for SM for you guys to see but I can't find CG now and I don't send anyone to SM sense Bouncer became Lion's ***** but it should what you could do with nothing but test and a tight diet

 

[RoboGiblets]

I have Nolva on hand in for post cycle therapy and in case I get gyno. I have plenty in case I need to use it on cycle. I doubt that I will as I dont seem to be very succeptible to it. Plus, this is test only.

Well, speaking from experience here:

I was on a test-only cycle and got a lump under my nipple. Nolva did nothing for me, except make it less tender. Letrozole got rid of it within 5 days.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[pistonpump]

Well, speaking from experience here:

I was on a test-only cycle and got a lump under my nipple. Nolva did nothing for me, except make it less tender. Letrozole got rid of it within 5 days.

Just my 2 cents.

:think: hmmmmm...guess the only real way to know is throught experience.

 

[BigMattTx]

:think: hmmmmm...guess the only real way to know is throught experience.

Thats what I'm thinking. Theres so many contradicting opinions and different beliefs that people hold when it comes to AAS usage. This is the original reason that I strayed away from injectibles and did a designer oral cycle. There is so much confusion for someone who is researching to run a cycle with the highest efficacy/safety.

Do I need an AI?
Which is best?
Whats the best way to prevent gyno?
Should I run the AI throughout the cycle?
Should I use HCG?
etc. etc.

Im gonna do some more thinking/researching but I still think I'm just gonna run this cycle on its own--with adex and Nolva on hand. I think once I know how pure test effects me then it wont be so damn overwhelming.

 

[pistonpump]

yah. i know what you mean.

 

[rotarnomore]

Poviron is my pick for most things as it does a good job of keeping things in check. But really nobody NEEDS an AI, you can do everything you need with diet but that takes quit a bit of effort. As far as gains are concerned, ANYHING that reduces your estrogen levels will to some degree reduce your gains as estrogen itself will help you grow (that is why they include it in cattle pellets to start with). I don't know that it is correct to say that the effect is greater with one AI more so then another.

Just a little different opinion. Estrogen does 2 main things (at least for what concerns growing and lifting). 1. It triggers the body to store more fat and 2. it triggers the body to retain more water. Now #2 I definitely agree with as being beneficial to gaining size and strength (more water promotes cell volumization). #1 may or may not be beneficial depending on your goals. If you take something like arimidex, it increases testosterone levels in the body. So yes you sacrifice the cell volumization but you increase testosterone levels (since it is inhibited to aromatize). So I really think it depends on the person and their individual reaction as to whether or not gains will suffer. For me, it did nothing adversely or beneficial to my gains so I used it. Just me.

 

[B5150]

Lets also consider that, although contrary to popular belief, elevated estrogen can cause prostate health issues, rather than DHT, as many have believed.

 

[Skye]

both true, but estrogen does increase growth in general (not sure on the how as have read several contradictory theories) but generally speaking it does make a difference as has been very well documented.

I am not say that that is a reason you should or should not use them but rather the reason people would notice fewer gains while running them. I should have made that clearer. My reason for not running them unless needed is due to the sides of the drugs rather then the effect. I LIKE running proviron but avoid it and anything else that is hard on the liver unless I need it. A lot of times people are worried about the bloat when they could in fact control it in other ways.

B5150 do you think I could get away with posting that link I was talking about? it is to SM but Candana Golds post is worth it.

 

[B5150]

Is this something that you can post, as opposed to links or source info that are questionable?

 

[pistonpump]

im not worried about bloat just gyno. I hate gyno and dont want to give it any chances thats my theory so if it sacrifices gains a little ill take it, better than having tits.

 

[Skye]

Is this something that you can post, as opposed to links or source info that are questionable?

Well it would be his pic and post, but he is MIA last I heard so I was hesitant to do that as I can’t ask him. I used to link to SM without a problem here but that was before I resigned as a mod and began referring to bouncer as Lion’s *****.

pistonpump Nolvadex would probably serve you better there as it tends to be a better treatment for gyno then an AI. Brotelligence might say otherwise but when you look at what most docs do for treatments it usually the SERMS that used for treatment and the AI for prevention purposes. Not always of course and most of this is coming from dr. in chemistry and not medical so take it for what its worth.

 

[shock]

What about running AIFM on cycle? I am planning on a test cycle in the next few months and was wondering if that would be a good inhibitor.

 

[B5150]

Well it would be his pic and post, but he is MIA last I heard so I was hesitant to do that as I can’t ask him. I used to link to SM without a problem here but that was before I resigned as a mod and began referring to bouncer as Lion’s *****.

Post what you got. I'll (or Mods) delete if it violates RC source or otherwise unaccpetable.

 

[Skye]

Everyone here is quick to jump on the "lets just jack in some anti e's" bandwagon when in reality water retention is hugely regulated by water intake AND carb intake. . .drop the carbs down gradually and replace those lost calories with fats (flax, udos oil, extra virgin olive etc) and protein. . you will eventually find the level that works for you.
Lots of guys struggle with water bloat on a cycle but anyone that has ever competed usually fugures this out after they change their diet up and start cutting. . .I dieted and got the most ripped I have ever been on 1200 mg test enanthate a week and I took NO anti e's for water retention.

this guy used nothing but Diet and 1200mg of test e. I went ahead and included the picture so noone should need to regester there.

BTW this guy is tight as hell :jaw:



canadagold

EDIT: Removed link and replace it with his one post in that respective thread.

 

[BigMattTx]

^^^^^^^^ awesome stuff!

 

[B5150]

Everyone here is quick to jump on the "lets just jack in some anti e's" bandwagon when in reality water retention is hugely regulated by water intake AND carb intake. . .drop the carbs down gradually and replace those lost calories with fats (flax, udos oil, extra virgin olive etc) and protein. . you will eventually find the level that works for you.
Lots of guys struggle with water bloat on a cycle but anyone that has ever competed usually fugures this out after they change their diet up and start cutting. . .I dieted and got the most ripped I have ever been on 1200 mg test enanthate a week and I took NO anti e's for water retention.

Well, I believe that with great discipline we (some) can get away without AI's. Obviously this guy was/is dieting and considerably more advanced in his discipline than 98% of our posters including myself. I would imagine that a carb limited, calorie restricted, sodium restricted and a very considerable amount of cardio diet and training program it is possible. Again...this likely excludes 98% of our posters. JMHO

 

[Skye]

Well, I believe that with great discipline we (some) can get away without AI's. Obviously this guy was/is dieting and considerably more advanced in his discipline than 98% of our posters including myself. I would imagine that a carb limited, calorie restricted, sodium restricted and a very considerable amount of cardio diet and training program it is possible. Again...this likely excludes 98% of our posters. JMHO

boy am I ever guilty of that, and I agree that AI def have their place, in fact I think they are just about mandatory if your using something like dbol or methyl test. But even I, with my crappy diet diabetic diet can control most of the bloat by just a few things. Then again I am not at all likely to look that ever. I will still be happy with just a moderate BF index. I just think that people are too quick to jump on the AI bandwagon. If nothing else works then go for it.

And please don't misunderstand me with that post; CG is not ever likely to be matched by most people. I meant it as what was possible with some discipline and knowledge. He is the one that really drove home the importance of diet for me. I am NOT saying that I can match that. (I can wish though)

 

[B5150]

I'm in complete agreement with you.

Just for the goof I did a quick browse of my 'average' sodium intake of my rather healthy diet (partial).

1 x 6oz. can tuna (2.5 servings) - 625mg
1 x 12oz can chicken (5 servings) - 1250mg
2 x 1/2 cup of FiberOne - 200mg
2 x 1cup skim milk - 240mg
4 x 35g protein powder - 220mg

Total Sodium - 2535mg

This does not account for other food product with trace amounts or more like diet colas and such.

I eat rather clean and healthy. But I also need some convenience as well. For us to get below the USRDA (btw a competition diet is very very far below the USRDA in sodium) we really need some discipline and a serious overhaul of our diets. I mean, sure, fresh breast of chicken and fish, no colas, etc would be less sodium laden. Let me know the avearge joe here or anywhere that thinks their diet is "right on" that is going to go that extent.

 

[gotripped]

I personally prefer a wetness to my mass cycles. It seems to help with strength, I don't mind adding 1-2% body fat or getting bloated during a mass cycle. I can easily cut off 3-4% body fat when I go from 9%-13%. Those are the ranges I'll stay at until I need to compete. Now with AI's in mind, running low doses to keep from getting gyno is all good and well. B will probably be best at helping you and others. I would personally run my test e cycle with Nolva/Clomid as PCT with DHEA and ATD. And keep Letro on hand to run at 2.5mg at the sign of gyno appearing. IMO I'd rather have the estrogen, the bloat, the water retention, and the fat than sacrifice mass gains with Letro as a backup.

 

[gotripped]

I personally prefer a wetness to my mass cycles. It seems to help with strength, I don't mind adding 1-2% body fat or getting bloated during a mass cycle. I can easily cut off 3-4% body fat when I go from 9%-13%. Those are the ranges I'll stay at until I need to compete. Now with AI's in mind, running low doses to keep from getting gyno is all good and well. B will probably be best at helping you and others. I would personally run my test e cycle with Nolva/Clomid as post cycle therapy with DHEA and ATD. And keep Letro on hand to run at 2.5mg at the sign of gyno appearing. IMO I'd rather have the estrogen, the bloat, the water retention, and the fat than sacrifice mass gains with Letro as a backup.

For my upcoming test e/sd/pp cycle I already have letro, nolva/clomid combo ready (and might I need to snatch some cabergoline?)

 

[BigMattTx]

I wouldnt worry about cabergoline. Thats a prolactin inhibitor and the type of gyno that you could get from this cycle is estrogenic as none of the compounds are progestins.

I guess it couldnt hurt to have around but I wouldnt worry unless you were running something like Tren.

BTW, my stuff is on its way, GR. I'll keep ya updated on how it looks once it arrives.

 

[pistonpump]

alright.
I was thinking Phera was progestin related for some reason.

that thought came into my mind too. Im not sure to tell you the truth. I wouldnt worry about the caber either tho. actually if estrogen is low enough then you should have problems with progestin induced gyno.

 

[Skye]

I'm in complete agreement with you.

Just for the goof I did a quick browse of my 'average' sodium intake of my rather healthy diet (partial).

1 x 6oz. can tuna (2.5 servings) - 625mg
1 x 12oz can chicken (5 servings) - 1250mg
2 x 1/2 cup of FiberOne - 200mg
2 x 1cup skim milk - 240mg
4 x 35g protein powder - 220mg

Total Sodium - 2535mg

This does not account for other food product with trace amounts or more like diet colas and such.

I eat rather clean and healthy. But I also need some convenience as well. For us to get below the USRDA (btw a competition diet is very very far below the USRDA in sodium) we really need some discipline and a serious overhaul of our diets. I mean, sure, fresh breast of chicken and fish, no colas, etc would be less sodium laden. Let me know the avearge joe here or anywhere that thinks their diet is "right on" that is going to go that extent.

Crap, and that is probably better then mine. for myself the sodium does make a differnce but carbs are what kill me both for the diabetes part and the bloating. But I am wondering just how much that cream of chicken soup had in it when I made my chicken last night, I really need to start to look at my sodium. hell I need to get my diet better to start with

 

[bpmartyr]

Crap, and that is probably better then mine. for myself the sodium does make a differnce but carbs are what kill me both for the diabetes part and the bloating. But I am wondering just how much that cream of chicken soup had in it when I made my chicken last night, I really need to start to look at my sodium. hell I need to get my diet better to start with

You and me both brother.