How To Fight Progestin Induced Gyno?

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  1. How To Fight Progestin Induced Gyno?


    I got gyno from 4 weeks of Finigenx Magnum. I quit taking it immediately, and started taking an ATD (nolvadex XT) and B6 vitamins immediately. A few days later i started taking real nolvadex. (SERM)

    I does not seem to be getting worse, but its not getting better like I hoped. Maybe a little better, but the lumps are still there. Since Finigenx is a tren precursor, and tren is a progesin(correct me if im wrong), is this progestin induced gyno most likely? And if so, is my treatment worthless? nolva makes me feel like ****. Could be the ATD also I guess but its most likely the nolva.

    If my treament is worthless, do i need to get some Dostinex?
    Dostinex is not as easy to get as nolva


  2. prolactin induced gyno ?

    posted by the clown.

    Then do yourself a favor and do some research re: prolactin/progesterone. Search the board and follow to to links that lead to CEM. Old stuff but still pertinent.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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  3. Thanks for the help. I didnt think nolva would make me feel this ****ty. I guess my body cant handle 80mg daily. But that was the first week, and im going to drop it to 50mg this week.

  4. Yes i read most of that already and it seems pretty unclear to me. Some people say nolva is worthless against progestin gyno, some say it isnt. Some say the only way to treat it is with Dostinex or Bromo.

  5. Also i beleiveits Vit B that controls prolactic levels too. I think its like 100-300mgs daily that may help with prolactin levels.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns

  6. correct, vit b-6 at doses like you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT
    Also i beleiveits Vit B that controls prolactic levels too. I think its like 100-300mgs daily that may help with prolactin levels.

  7. I had a mild case pop up , first time I ever had it. a cycle of MAX Lmg .. took the above doses and in a couple of weeks it cleared up.. got to say it does scare the s**t out of you

  8. Drop the Nolvadex and use Letrozole instead.

  9. What does Letro do better than Nolva? From what i hear Nolva is the best gyno fighter.

  10. letro and nolva are different, one is an AI one is a SERM.

    i would have no idea why you would take letro over nolva for this? maybe foxx can explain.
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  11. I thought letro was used for water weight reduction...not gyno issues...

    I've heard of people using nolva, dostinex or proviron...

  12. Quote Originally Posted by FitModel
    I thought letro was used for water weight reduction...not gyno issues...

    I've heard of people using nolva, dostinex or proviron...
    Letro reportedly stops~99% estrogen. I have also heard that it is very good at stopping aromatization in fatty tissues. I am pretty sure I read this on one of these bb boards so take it with a grain of salt.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  13. Quote Originally Posted by FitModel
    I thought letro was used for water weight reduction...not gyno issues...

    Wow, you are severely mistaken. Letrozole is an AI.. aromatase inhibitor. Essenstially halts the conversion of Test to Estrogen via the aromatase enzyme.

    Granted this also lessens water bloat related to estrogen, (your water weight issues) it will also help treat gyno as you need an excess of estrogen and/ progesterone to have gyno problems.

    It is beneficial when used to treat gyno... especially in preventing it.

  14. Letro will reduce progesterone levels along with it eliminating a lot of estrogen. Sounds like a good combo for this problem to me.

  15. Would you suggest his dose at 2.5mg every other day or every day?

  16. 2.5mg everyday until it's gone then taper off is the advice I've been given.

  17. isn't Letro the same or at least VERY similar to a-dex...and I believe most people favor adex over letro...correct me if i'm wrong...

  18. Quote Originally Posted by FitModel
    isn't Letro the same or at least VERY similar to a-dex...and I believe most people favor adex over letro...correct me if i'm wrong...

    Here are the profiles on the two, you make the call.

    Arimidex
    Anastrozole

    Arimidex (Anastrozole) is what we call an aromatase inhibitor (AI). In clinical use, itīs used to halt the progression of Breast Cancer in women. It works by blocking the aromatase enzyme, which is responsible for the production of estrogen. In athletics and bodybuilding, it is used as an ancillary compound to be added to a cycle of Anabolic Steroids. In this respect it is also used for its estrogen reducing properties, but it has the additional benefit of increasing testosterone levels, as weīll see...
    Arimidex Side Effects

    Many anabolic steroids aromatize (convert to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme), and this is responsible for many of the unwanted side effects found with anabolic steroid use (acne, gynocomastia, water-retention, etc...). In one study, both .5mg and 1mg doses of Arimidex were shown to decrease estrogen by roughly 50%. The 1mg/day dose also increased testosterone levels by 58% (1). In that same study, in both groups, LH and FSH also went up slightly.

    Take a look:

    Changes in testosterone and E2 concentrations in normal young men (15 22 yr old) before () and after 10 days of oral anastrozole at 0.5 and 1 mg.(1)

    This would seem to suggest that for use during a cycle, a dose of .5mgs/day would be sufficient to combat estrogen-related side effects. It is, however, important to remember that some estrogen is necessary to obtain optimal muscle growth. The lower estrogen levels provided by īdex seems, anecdotally at least, to produce a more "hard" and "quality" look for bodybuilders who have experimented with itīs use in either a cutting or bulking cycle.

    Iīd like to point out that the elevation in Testosterone provided by Arimidex is so large that it can be used as a "form" of testosterone replacement therapy for hypogonadal men (2). Clearly, this suggests its use in a post-cycle-therapy (as well as its previously discussed use within a cycle) to regain natural testosterone levels and full functioning of the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Testicular-Pituitary-Axis).

    Literature provided by the original maker of Anastrozole (Arimidex, produced by Zeneca Pharmaceuticals) states that stable blood plasma concentrations of the compound are achieved after a mere 7 consecutive 1mg daily doses. Also, Arimidex is just over 80% effective at inhibiting aromatase (3). Thus, if you want to take it for the entire duration of a cycle of anabolic steroids, you can simply start taking it on the same day you begin your cycle. Those are some pretty good numbers, huh?

    But can you use it for the entire duration of a cycle? Is it dangerous? Well, certainly reducing estrogen levels in your body is good from a body building point of view, as it reduces water-retention and the potential for gynocomastia (if thereīs no estrogen in your body, you canīt get gyno, regardless of how much progesterone is floating around)(5). Luckily this stuff is very mild on blood lipids (cholesterol) and doesnīt affect them adversely (2), in the studies Iīve seen.
    Arimidex and Cholestrol

    As previously mentioned, those lowered estrogen levels could possibly (eventually) adversely affect your cholesterol and possibly even your immune function. I am, however, very comfortable recommending Arimidex for relatively long-term use. This should be the ancillary compound of choice for those on long and heavy cycles, especially since it also doesnīt inhibit igf like some other ancillary compounds (insulin-like-growth-factor is an important component of anabolism)(4).
    Price of Arimidex

    Though price of Arimidex will vary, this is one of the compounds I will caution the reader from buying in its legitimate pharmaceutical form. The price (up to $5/tab) is absurd, when you consider its availability from Underground Labs, as well as in research form, for less than 1/3rd of that. Iīve used both the tabs from an Underground Lab, as well as the liquid version from research-sites, and found the results from both to be exactly the same.

    References:

    1. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
    2. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2005 Feb;62(2):228-35.
    3. Arimidex Package insert
    4. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2002 Apr;80(4-5):411-8.
    5. Progesterone is not essential to the differentiative potential of mammary epithelium in the male mouse. Freeman, Topper. Endocrinology. 1978 Jul;103(1):186-92





    Letrozole
    Femara

    Letrozole (Femara) is the chemical name of Novartisī selective third generationAromatase Inhibitor (AI). This drug was developed to fight breast cancer by inhibiting the aromatization. It is usually used as a part of an aggressive treatment in post-menopausal women, to fight and reverse the spread of breast cancer after other treatments (such as Tamoxifen therapy) has failed. Itīs probably the most efficient product on the market for this purpose currently (5) It is very similar in structure and action to itīs predecessor Arimidex.

    Letrozole (Femara) also does quite a few things which would be of interest to both bodybuilders and athletes. Firstly, it has been shown to reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater (1). In at least one documented incidence, Letrozole (Femara) reduced estrogen in the test subject to undetectable levels, and increased LH, FSH and SHBG (4). Clearly this is all of interest to bodybuilders, as less estrogen in the body means less chance of certain side effects such as water-retention, Gynocomastia, and acne. This makes Letrozole (Femara) an appropriate choice for even the heaviest bulking or cutting cycles including harsh androgens. Also, if you are a competitive bodybuilder, Letrozole (Femara) is a must have product for contest prep; no other Ancillary compound will produce a dry and tight look like Letro will.

    An effective dose of Letrozole (Femara) is .25-.5mg/day (I use .25mgs/day), but be forewarned, if you go over that amount, it can kill your sex drive. Also worth noting is that thereīs a rebound effect on your estrogen when you come off Letrozol. Maximum inhibition of the aromatase enzyme has been found to happen at doses as low as 100mcg! (2)

    Letrozole (Femara)īs effects on serum lipids (cholesterol, both HDL and LDL) are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent. " Clearly, however, youīll eventually suffer an impaired lipid profile and immune system if you keep your estrogen levels too low for too long. Your sex drive will also probably suffer from extraordinarily low levels of estrogen present.

    As previously mentioned, Letrozole (Femara) can be used to raise LH and FSH (which are hormones which signal your testes to produce more testosterone). It also, of course, will raise your testosterone levels (6) via this mechanism. Again, this is of interest to athletes and bodybuilders for obvious reasons. Letrozole (Femara), of course, can be used for post-cycle-therapy (PCT) to raise test levels, but for various reasons, Tamoxifen may be a better choice. Still, I have successfully used Letrozole (Femara) for this purpose.

    How good is this compared with Aromasin and Arimidex, itīs too other main rivals? Well, In non-cellular systems, Letrozole (Femara) is 2-5 times more potent than anastrozole and exemestane in its inhibition of the aromatase enzyme and activity, and in cellular systems it is 10-20x more potent! It also lasts quite a long time in your body,but takes awhile to get going& Letrozole (Femara) has a whopping 2-4 day (!) ― life, and you need to take Letrozole (Femara) for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level (8).

    Those are impressive numbers, but hereīs one of the most interesting things about Letrozole (Femara):

    It may reduce/eliminate/reverse existing gynocomastia!

    In a study conducted on mice (*no, I know itīs not perfect), gyno-like-changes in the mammary gland were totally destroyed! Hereīs a direct quote from that study:

    "Our results also indicate aromatase overexpression-induced changes in mammary glands can be abrogated [destroyed] with very low concentrations of the aromatase inhibitor, Letrozole (Femara)."(7)

    In addition, Iīve used Letro to get rid of my own gyno, as has a friend of mine, and we both used it at a dose of 2.5mgs/day, tapering down to .25mgs/day, and then finally off..the gyno never returned in both our cases.

    Iīd say that this stuff is pretty great, considering its availability and cost (when you consider the fact that .25mgs/day is more than enough protection from estrogen-related sides on most cycles), not to mention itīs overall utility for a variety of functions (destroying gyno, preventing estrogenic sides, and for PCT).

    References:

    1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
    2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
    3. Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov 15;105(2):161-5
    4. Epilepsy Behav. 2004 Apr;5(2):260-3
    5. Semin Oncol. 2004 Dec;31(6 Suppl 12):3-8.
    6. Diabetes Obes Metab. 2005 May;7(3):211-5.
    7. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):27-34. Aromatase overexpression transgenic mice model: cell type specific expression and use of Letrozole (Femara) to abrogate mammary hyperplasia without affecting normal physiology.
    8. (Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.).

  19. Quote Originally Posted by FitModel
    isn't Letro the same or at least VERY similar to a-dex...and I believe most people favor adex over letro...correct me if i'm wrong...
    People will tend to favor D'dex while on cycle, to keep estrogen controlled and prevent gyno.

    As shown the Letro helps with existing gyno. It is extremely efficient at shutting down aromatization.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  20. I know that drinking alcohol increases estrogen and nolva is hard on the liver, but is it really really bad for me to drink 3-4 beers once or twice during the week while taking 40mg daily nolva? Im sure it wont help any, but as long as it doesnt have a detrimental effect im ok with it.

  21. Letro is more powerful, hands down.

    You don't have to use too much on cycle to be effective. I think 2.5mg EOD is overkill, let alone ED. Unless treating a pre-existing gyno condition. You can use 1/4 of that dose and control estrogen effectively, without eradicating it.

    Exemestane is favorable over both Arimidex and Letrozole if you are taking your lipids into consideration. Exemestane doesn't effect estrogen negatively in regards to the liver, as Arimidex and Letrozole do

    Letrozole is just more effective.

  22. I just ordered some letro. I will continue to take Nolva at 40-50 mg per day (depending on how i feel, since i feel like crap on it)

    I will also continue to take 250-300mg B6 daily and Gaspiri's Novadex XT.

    What is my best plan of action to treat gyno? It seems to be getting better from the Nolva, Novadex XT and B6. I dont want to get off this too early if it is going to work. My nips arent as puffy but the lumps are still there, and thank god i never lactated once.


    Next week when I get the Letro I will have Rebound XT, Nolva and Letro on hand. Ive been on the Novadex XT for about 2.5 weeks and the Nolva for 2 weeks.

  23. If it was me, I'd keep on taking the Nolva/B-6.. along with vitex agnus castus.. and then implement the Letro alongside.. if the symptoms clear up, taper off the Nolva and drop the B-6/Vitex...keep up with the Letro for another week or so, and then taper that off as well.

  24. So drop the OTC ATD's all together? I suppose with the Letro there is no need for them. Sounds like my libido is going to get even worse

  25. Yeah, maybe mixmaster daddyfresh Doctor D will chime in, as he is more knowledgable in regards to the pharmacokinetics and pharmacology of said compounds.

    Yes, AI's will destroy your libido. That's why I only use enough to keep estrogen in control. Although you are combatting gyno now, so use a standard dose. Your libido is second priority now I'm sure.

  26. If you want you can follow my log. I developed a tiny lump and things have improved for the most part. I didn't stop any of the AAS so something is working ok. Around page 3 post #44 I noticed the lump.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle...bol-cycle.html
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  27. I would recommend dropping the Nolvadex during Letro as the Letro makes the Nolvadex much less effective.


    Edit: It's the other way around, my bad. I type too fast sometimes.

  28. ^^^Yeah I'm seeing this bit of info pop up on some searches now. Huh.. learn something new everyday.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Sir Foxx
    I would recommend dropping the Nolvadex during Letro as the Letro makes the Nolvadex much less effective.
    Could you post up the source of this information?
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
  30. Recent log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213350-lean-efx-refined.html
  

  
 

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