Formasin

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  1. Originally posted by ShadowJack
    If you are going to do this, I recommend filtering the filler from the caps, before adding to the topical gel.

    I have done this with 6-OXO, and have been running it topically for the past 2 weeks. It is working quite well.
    Just out of curiousity, what means did you use to filter and do you happen to know the approx yield? I'd suppose you could/would lose a substantial amount of active if you filtered through a coffee filter and not a whatman.


  2. Originally posted by chosen5

    All that there is to filter out is the micro crystalline cellulose and i thought that the gel had been corrected so as to compensate for the filler.
    Iím not certain what the filler that is used in the 6-OXO caps actually is. It looks a lot like a rice bran filler, though.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    This thread deals with the topic of fixing T-Gel to compensate for the binders/fillers: http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...;thread****1715

    This thread deals with an actual user's issue with binders/filler:
    http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...;thread****1166
    I have read these threads that you have posted. To me, it is not a question of whether you can get the solution to gel properly with the filler left in.

    It is an issue of better absorption. Removing the filler will decrease the amount of powder that has to be dissolved in the gel, and will increase solubility.

    For example, the contents of a 6-OXO capsule weigh ~0.50g. And they are 100mg caps. So, the filler is ~80% of the contents. If the filler is filtered out first, you can dissolve more actual 6-OXO in the gel without over-saturating it.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    Why would you even filter 3-Alpha, I'd suppose for transdermal administration?
    Yes. I ran it topically with 1-test on a 4-week cycle. I'm using the 6-OXO topical for post-cycle.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    3-Alpha has a 40%+ bioavailability and the gel is roundabouts there at best guestimates.
    Actually, 3-Alpha has a conversion rate of 40+% (43% to be precise, according to Molecular's website).

    We don't know the exact bioavailability of 3-Alpha, but even Bill L. has commented that "its bioavailability is probably very low actually." I have seen no reason to believe that it has a bioavailability any higher than 4-AD.

    BTW, I never mixed Viratase into a topical. I only filtered some as I had part of a bottle remaining, to experiment with filtering a PH, as I had only filtered UA and SU up until that point.


    Originally posted by chosen5

    Just out of curiousity, what means did you use to filter and do you happen to know the approx yield? I'd suppose you could/would lose a substantial amount of active if you filtered through a coffee filter and not a whatman.
    I just used an ordinary coffee filter and iso.

    I canít accurately say what the yield was, but I will give you an estimate. When I first started experimenting with filtering caps, I filtered 2g of SU with some iso, through a coffee filter and into a glass jar (which I weighed beforehand). I then completely evaporated the iso, to the point that the SU was stuck/dried to the bottom and sides of the glass jar. I then weighed this and came up with a difference of 1.9g. At the time, I was using a scale that has only 0.1g accuracy, so the test was far from ideal. But it did give me the confidence that the filtering was 90%+ accurate.

    I didnít repeat the weighing process when I filtered the SU, as I never evaporated the iso. I used the iso/filtered 6-OXO mixture as the base for the topical gel. I guess I am assuming that the 6-OXO filtering is similar to the SU that I filtered in yield, as the actual filtering process went about the same.

    I have since obtained a scale with 0.01g accuracy, so perhaps I will repeat this experiment in the future to try to achieve more accurate numbers.
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  3. Originally posted by ShadowJack


    Iím not certain what the filler that is used in the 6-OXO caps actually is. It looks a lot like a rice bran filler, though.



    I have read these threads that you have posted. To me, it is not a question of whether you can get the solution to gel properly with the filler left in.

    It is an issue of better absorption. Removing the filler will decrease the amount of powder that has to be dissolved in the gel, and will increase solubility.

    For example, the contents of a 6-OXO capsule weigh ~0.50g. And they are 100mg caps. So, the filler is ~80% of the contents. If the filler is filtered out first, you can dissolve more actual 6-OXO in the gel without over-saturating it.



    Yes. I ran it topically with 1-test on a 4-week cycle. I'm using the 6-OXO topical for post-cycle.



    Actually, 3-Alpha has a conversion rate of 40+% (43% to be precise, according to Molecular's website).

    We don't know the exact bioavailability of 3-Alpha, but even Bill L. has commented that "its bioavailability is probably very low actually." I have seen no reason to believe that it has a bioavailability any higher than 4-AD.

    BTW, I never mixed Viratase into a topical. I only filtered some as I had part of a bottle remaining, to experiment with filtering a PH, as I had only filtered UA and SU up until that point.




    I just used an ordinary coffee filter and iso.

    I canít accurately say what the yield was, but I will give you an estimate. When I first started experimenting with filtering caps, I filtered 2g of SU with some iso, through a coffee filter and into a glass jar (which I weighed beforehand). I then completely evaporated the iso, to the point that the SU was stuck/dried to the bottom and sides of the glass jar. I then weighed this and came up with a difference of 1.9g. At the time, I was using a scale that has only 0.1g accuracy, so the test was far from ideal. But it did give me the confidence that the filtering was 90%+ accurate.

    I didnít repeat the weighing process when I filtered the SU, as I never evaporated the iso. I used the iso/filtered 6-OXO mixture as the base for the topical gel. I guess I am assuming that the 6-OXO filtering is similar to the SU that I filtered in yield, as the actual filtering process went about the same.

    I have since obtained a scale with 0.01g accuracy, so perhaps I will repeat this experiment in the future to try to achieve more accurate numbers.
    Thank you very much for the detailed explanation ShadowJack, very appreciative! I will filter the 6-oxo(hadn't gotten my scale yet to weigh out how much filler was actually in the product. I hadn't assumed it'd be so high, but as such, I will filter the active for the reason/s you've stated!) Once again a big thank you and I will give feedback on how the 6-oxo and formestane perform as topicals!

    Another question, what dosages of 6-oxo are you running topically ShadowJack?
    Last edited by chosen5; 04-03-2003 at 02:40 AM.

  4. Originally posted by chosen5

    Another question, what dosages of 6-oxo are you running topically ShadowJack?
    I filtered one bottle of 6-OXO and made it into a 240ml gel. I am running that over 30 days. One bottle contains 6g of 6-OXO, so that works out to ~200mg per day (using no yield loses in the filtering process).

    Just to compare, PA's study posted on M&M used on oral dosage of 600mg of 6-OXO per day. Now we don't know the exact bioavailability of 6-OXO, but again, I have seen no reason to believe that it is any higher than 4-AD.

    So using 4-AD as a comparison, with an oral bioavailability of ~5%, and a topical absorption of ~30%+, I generally estimate that topical application is ~6x more effective than oral dosing.

    So, the 200mg of 6-OXO per day applied topically would equate to a dosage level of 1200mg/day taken orally, using the above logic. That is twice the dosage that the subjects from PA's study were using, which showed a (more than) doubling of testosterone over a 3-week period.

  5. Originally posted by ShadowJack
    Actually, 3-Alpha has a conversion rate of 40+% (43% to be precise, according to Molecular's website).

    We don't know the exact bioavailability of 3-Alpha, but even Bill L. has commented that "its bioavailability is probably very low actually." I have seen no reason to believe that it has a bioavailability any higher than 4-AD.
    Curious again, what doses did you run of the topical 3-alpha, what did you stack it with, and what were the results? Would you consider buying raw 3-alpha powder from BAC?(beyond-a-century.com), a much cheaper alternative to filtering molecular 3-alpha, or is BAC not "trustworthy."?
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  6. How was that 3-alpha on your hairline shadowjack?

  7. 3Alpha was a wonderful supp but it was hard on my prostate. My hair line was not affected.

  8. How can you tell when you're having prostate problems from an androgen, ww7? Is it painful urination, etc? Did you take Saw Palmetto while on the 3alpha?

    BigVrunga

  9. Originally posted by chosen5

    Curious again, what doses did you run of the topical 3-alpha, what did you stack it with, and what were the results?
    I had a post on this on another board. After reading the following post, if you have any other questions, I will be happy to try to answer them.

    I am currently running a 1-test/3-Alpha topical, that may be of some interest. Systematic, of course. I wish I was smart enough to figure out a localized carrier. 6g of 1-test and 6g of 3-Alpha, applied over a total of 30 days. 200mg of each per day. I've been running it for 3 weeks so far, and I have 1 week left.

    Strength gains have been good, though they have slowed in the last week. I was lifting at maximal loads when I started, however, so I guess I shouldn't expect dramatic increases. It's also been about 3 months straight of 6-day per week lifting, without a week off, so I'm a little burned out, as well. After I get through the final week of this cycle, and 3-4 weeks for post-cycle recovery, I will be taking a week off from lifting, and start something new. I'll be using a 6-OXO topical for post-cycle, with no other anti-e, so it should prove to be a good test of how well 6-OXO works when applied topically. I have used it post-cycle orally in the past, so I have something to compare it to. I'll also be running a 7-Keto DHEA topical, to go along with the 6-OXO.

    Getting back to the 3-Alpha topical, I have never used it orally before, so it is difficult for me to compare. Vascularity and muscle hardness are very good, even though I am on bulking level calories (~5000/day on average). I have gained 10 pounds in the past 3 weeks, and I would say that none of it is water weight. Some of it is fat, of course, although I would say it is limited, as my pants are still fitting very well.

    As far as side effects. Acne is worse than using 1-test alone, or 1-test with 4-AD. Actually, it is the worst acne I have experienced, although it is still not "bad" per se, or anything I would consider to be a major problem. Lethargy is about the same as using 1-test alone. Noticeable, and slightly problematic at times, but nowhere near the major lethargy I get when taking SU or UA.

    The biggest problem that I have had is (workout) stamina. It has gotten worse the longer I have gone in this cycle. It has been very difficult having enough energy to get through a full workout. So, my workouts have taken longer, as I have needed more time in-between sets. Because of this, I have gone to split AM/PM workouts, doing about half each in the morning and at night. This has helped me continue at a high volume and high workout frequency. Recovery between workouts is very good. I'm ready to go again the next day, it's just that during the workout, my recovery in-between sets has not been good.

    Also, joint pain is fairly bad. Worse than I have experienced when using 1-test alone. It hasn't kept me from working out, or forced me to reduce the weights, but near the end of workouts, and definitely right after, it is quite painful at times. The joint pain doesn't last; I'm fine the next day. It is only during and right after lifting. The only time I have experienced worse joint pain is when I was using Viratase on-cycle (with ONE and a 4-AD topical), to eliminate water bloating and itchy nips.

    Blood pressure is definitely up. I haven't actually measured it, but I can tell, as it is normally quite low. Cardio workout stamina is an absolute joke right now. I am having great difficulty getting through HIIT workouts, even at lower duration and intensity than I normally go at. Also, back stiffness is quite bad. I normally get this on-cycle, but it has been worse this time (from the added 3-Alpha?). It's probably as bad at the 3-week point right now, as it has been in the past at the 7-week point on a 1-test/4-AD cycle. So, it has come on sooner than usual for me. The back stiffness is the biggest thing holding me back during HIIT workouts. I'm not really challenging my cardiovascular system to the extent I normally do, because the back pain sets in too quickly for me to reach the intensity that I am used to.

    I think that addresses most of what I have noticed. In conclusion, I like the addition of 3-Alpha. I will be trying it again, but next time during a cutting cycle, as I am presently bulking. Am interested in seeing the results. I may also run 3-Alpha alone, next time, without the 1-test, to get a better feel for what the 3-Alpha can accomplish (by itself). Either way, I will definitely be running it topically, as I have no plans to run 3-Alpha orally.

    Originally posted by chosen5

    Would you consider buying raw 3-alpha powder from BAC?(beyond-a-century.com), a much cheaper alternative to filtering molecular 3-alpha
    BAC sells the 3-beta isomer of 5-AA in bulk powder. Mike (1fast400) has it as well.

    Unfortunately, the only (current) source of the 3-alpha isomer of 5-AA is Molecular, as Bill L. holds a patent on it. Par has posted that he will be offering it soon in bulk powder form. I believe he will be sourcing it directly from Bill.

  10. Originally posted by BigVrunga
    How was that 3-alpha on your hairline shadowjack?
    I have been very fortunate in that regard. I have run numerous 1-test cycles over the past year, and not had any adverse effect on the hairline. The 1-test/3-Alpha cycle also did not have a noticeable effect on my hairline.

    This may not apply to everyone though. I'd advise caution if going the 3-Alpha route, especially if you have had any adverse reactions from either 1-test or 4-AD.

    I wouldn't advocate the usage of 3-Alpha as a first PH cycle. Probably better for experienced users, who have a good feel for how PH's effect their system. Also, I wouldn't dose it topically for longer than 4 weeks, due to some of the sides that I mentioned in the post above.

  11. Also, joint pain is fairly bad. Worse than I have experienced when using 1-test alone. It hasn't kept me from working out, or forced me to reduce the weights, but near the end of workouts, and definitely right after, it is quite painful at times. The joint pain doesn't last; I'm fine the next day. It is only during and right after lifting. The only time I have experienced worse joint pain is when I was using Viratase on-cycle (with ONE and a 4-AD topical), to eliminate water bloating and itchy nips.
    Using Formasin, I havent noticed any joint pain at all. (just as a comparison to the viratase...)

    BigVrunga
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