which steriods would be good to help heal joints and tendons
- 12-18-2005, 06:20 PM
- 12-18-2005, 06:30 PM
I would imagine low dose test with deca and IGF-1 would probably be your best bet and it never hurts to overdose on MSM and glucosamine glutamine etc etc
good luck bro,
- 12-18-2005, 06:32 PM
as for an explanation on the low dose test...i only reccomend low dose (ie 500mg EW) mainly b/c i wouldnt want to run deca without test or anything without test for that matter...however test is high doses can lead to too much strength and mass gain and eventually the tendons will be competing in order to keep up with the gains.
12-18-2005, 08:13 PM
Do a search on this as I've posted a handy guide a couple of times about this.
12-19-2005, 11:30 AM
12-19-2005, 12:15 PM
oldie but goodie.
While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.
Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.
Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.
Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.
You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.
Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.
While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.
To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.
Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood
Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.
Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.
Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.
These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:
Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days
Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.
Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.
Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.
12-19-2005, 12:23 PM
12-19-2005, 12:45 PM
Any info on Turnabol and how it relates to collagen synthesis? Im guessing that since it was primarilly used by olympic athletes that its good or at least safe?
12-19-2005, 12:49 PM
Chondromalacia of the patella
good info beelz,
I have severe chondromalacia of both of my patellas. Basically my smooth cartilage on the back of my knee caps looks like someone took a cheese grater to it. Do you think a 6-8 weeker of eq would help heal any of this roughness??
12-19-2005, 12:59 PM
i'm not qualified to give that kind of advice bro. but IMO, i do think it would help, 6-8 weeks wouldn't be enough though, i'd say 12 minimum. throw some test in there at at least an equal dosage and you should be good to go.
fwiw, i've had a few reoccuring injuries that have recently healed up through GH usage. whether it'll stay that way or not remains to be seen. it's the only reason i tried GH. it's expensive though and not for everyone on a budget.
oh, speaking of knee injuries. there's a national competitor in my gym (bb'er) that had severe knee issues preventing him from training even with the lightest weights. went to the doc and said surgery was the only way to go. instead, he got on growth and went to see the same doc about 1 year later. doc said he didn't know what he had done, but it had completely healed up on it's own. something to consider anyway......
12-19-2005, 01:54 PM
I've heard many people praise GH for it's injury healing properties, but from what little research I've done on GH dosen't it mainly work by increasing Ifg. If I remembered that right, wouldn't supplementing with Ifg work just as well, just a little more speedily.
Thanks for the nudge nudge twords a 12 weeker I didn't know how heptoxic eq was... Just to be clear I've never done a cycle of anything I'm just tired of my knees always hurting and the doc never helping. He keeps trying to give me a cort shot but I don't want to mask the pain I want to fix the problem.
Cissus and repair???
12-19-2005, 02:00 PM
yea i would do the gh if you can get it thats what i was looking at GH but my doctor wont give me a script so i was thinking ifg really want to do a long cycle of gh but my docter is beening a pain
12-19-2005, 02:04 PM
eq isn't anything to concern yourself with in the hepatoxicity department. orals, however, are the anti-christ IMO. as for IGF (not ifg, lol), some have reported that their injuries are cleared up with that too. it didn't do anything for mine though, where gh did.
if you decide to do a cycle, post it up before you start so it can be critiqued by a few bros. it helps.
12-19-2005, 02:12 PM
yea ill post up my cycle here because this is the best site with some of the greatest guys ever. So do thinking it would be better to try harder to get the gh or just go with the igf
12-19-2005, 02:14 PM
if you're trying to get gh through legal routes, it could prove to be rather difficult. especially now with all the scrutiny in the media and government. try the igf and see how it works, won't know **** til you give it a taste for yourself. everyone reacts differently.
12-19-2005, 02:33 PM
It would be nice to hear about the difference for knee injuries between injected IGF and Oratropin-1. Due to the difference in administration methods, I'm sure their ability to repair such injuries must differ somewhat.
I myself healed a shoulder problem by injecting IGF-1 at the site, which was close to the surface and not deep into the joint. But of course, I never did inject in my knees even though they are in a similar state to Popa Murph's. I wouldn't reccomend it unless there was a study showing its safety and effectiveness.
IGF-1 is mostly injected IM post-workout and this insures that most of it will bind to muscle, which is generally a good idea. GH, OTOH, has absolutely systemic effects. It isn't selective. In other words, despite some research in that area, I have not come up on a way to use IGF-1 to effectively heal deep joint problems.
It would be interesting to find out such a way. Perhaps Oratropin-1 can help. Otherwise hGH is the way to go IMO. IGF-1 isn't much cheaper... Think about $300 per month of use VS $400 for hGH and the difference isn't really that huge...
12-19-2005, 06:27 PM
IFG... i'm a Dunce.. hahaha!!!
The Oratropin is very interesting.. Thanks for the info Grunt, I think I will look into the Oratropin, maybe I'll ask some IBE guys if they have any info on the increase collagen synthesis if any from Oratrop
12-19-2005, 06:31 PM
12-19-2005, 06:40 PM
Yeh I've bumped into that a few times already. Did you try it Max32? Or can you point to some posts/logs about it?Originally Posted by Max32
12-19-2005, 07:10 PM
That's the one
That's the one
Originally Posted by Beelzebub
12-20-2005, 03:56 PM
Beez, that article has been all over the internet for years but I never managed to get the actual studies and sources for those numbers.
12-21-2005, 01:09 AM
Yes, I'd feel much better about it with some citations to medical literature. Considering Boldenone isn't used in medicine (?) I am somewhat skeptical.Originally Posted by MarcusG
12-21-2005, 08:18 AM
i'll start doing some digging to see for myself. you're right, that has been flying through the boards for a while now with little or no 'actual' validation except through personal experiences. i posted this a while ago, but it gives some credit to nandrolone, i'll find more though.
Steroids May Improve Tendon Repair After Surgery
By Merritt McKinney
Thursday, July 1, 2004
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Anabolic steroids are against the rules for professional athletes, but preliminary research suggests that steroids may help repair a shoulder injury that affects many professional and weekend athletes.
In lab experiments using bioengineered tendons, researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that tendons treated with an anabolic steroid were stronger than untreated tendons.
"In a highly experimental model, anabolic steroids do appear to improve the quality of rotator cuff tendon tissue," lead author Dr. Spero G. Karas told Reuters Health.
Most likely, steroids help by improving protein production in each tendon cell or by boosting the way tendon cells communicate with each other, Karas said.
But don't expect doctors to start prescribing anabolic steroids to people who have rotator cuff surgery any time soon. Karas cautioned that much more testing needs to be done.
"If enough testing can conclude that this treatment is effective, then of course we could attempt it in humans with difficult rotator cuff injuries," Karas said.
The rotator cuff is made up of the muscles and tendons that hold the upper arm bone to the shoulder. When the rotator cuff is injured, surgery may be performed to repair it. Unfortunately, healing after surgery is often incomplete and many people experience repeat rotator cuff injuries.
Anabolic steroids are known to build muscle mass and boost strength, so Karas and his colleagues set out to see whether steroids might improve rotator cuff healing.
The research involved bioengineered tendons developed by co-author Dr. Albert J. Banes. The researchers collected tendon samples from six people who were having rotator cuff surgery. Cells from these tendons were isolated and used to grow the bioengineered tendons.
Some of these tendons were treated with the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate, while others were not. Some tendons were also subjected to load testing, in which the tendons were stretched.
Tendons that had been treated with steroids and subjected to loading were stronger, denser and more elastic than other tendons, the researchers report in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. The steroid-treated tendons also had a more natural appearance than other tendons.
The research will not have an immediate impact on the treatment of rotator cuff injuries, but the research establishes a way to test the effect of mechanical stress and medications on tendon cells, Karas said.
"Any drug can be tested, but we chose an anabolic agent because of its successful background in treating patients with burns and other injuries," Karas said.
Another potential implication of the research, according to Karas, is that it "may permit us to manufacture a matrix of tissue that can be used to replace deficient human tissues."
Karas noted, "We are only in the embryonic phases of this work. We are a long way off, but the potential is exciting."
SOURCE: American Journal of Sports Medicine, June 2004.
12-21-2005, 03:21 PM
The thing about the article which bugs me is that it said test reduces collagen synthesis by 50%. I never managed to find the source of that claim.
12-21-2005, 03:35 PM
12-21-2005, 04:08 PM
Has anyone done a full cycle of aflutop or Quan? If so any sides at all what so ever? I've seen some great reveiws on the stuff but no one has any sides at all, negative sides anyway, that just makes me wonder why the FDA hasn't approved them for human use..
12-22-2005, 03:28 PM
Because pharma companies have more PROFITABLE products out there and ESPECIALLY in the pipeline... How many billions got made from that product that got pulled for the slight inconvenience of killing people?Originally Posted by Popa Murph
12-27-2005, 10:46 PM
I know aflutop is IM inj, but does one need to inj into the problematic areas?
12-28-2005, 04:02 AM
I have a persistent elbow injury that has to be tendon related.
As it is I can barely move it and had to stop working out. My doctor is on vacation and his replacement took an x-ray and determined it to be inflammation. Nothing seems to help, though. So any information on aflutop would be greatly appreciated.
12-28-2005, 07:56 AM
Not the IM version. If you get the IA version you do though. Better just to use the IM version.Originally Posted by Max32
ADVANCED MUSCLE SCIENCE STRONGEST ON THE MARKET
12-28-2005, 10:03 AM
Aflutop might be good for that, but try devil's claw root, it's a great natural anti-inflammatory that will probably change your life man. I know it did mine. NOW makes it, others do too. I use Kalyx's liquid extract.Originally Posted by vrykolaka
12-28-2005, 10:04 AM
Methinks you are talking about Adequan? Is there an IM version of Aflutop?Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
12-28-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Grunt76
I'll look that up, thanks!
01-23-2006, 05:14 PM
I see deca and anavar help with tendons but does anyone have any idea about m4ohn or mdien. they are both nandrolone derivatives, I believe. is the action of repairing tendons the same?
01-23-2006, 05:32 PM
That's a good question.Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2
I know Cissus does great things for some injuries (esp. mine), but plenty of people would love to find a supplement that will
"...increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density..."
THIS would be an incredible selling "supplement" that would also make a lot of people's lives much easier.
Well...someone get to makin' this already!
01-23-2006, 06:24 PM
Bump for feedback?Originally Posted by vrykolaka
01-25-2006, 01:29 AM
Been taking Devil's Claw root for two weeks and am attempting my first workout tomorrow.
So far so good...elbow feels a lot better. I *finally* got cleared for an M.R.I. on the elbow, which I'll probably still do.
For anti-inflammatory, it's working great. My ankle problem is gone! Thanks again for the suggestion.
01-25-2006, 03:55 PM
Glad to hear I could be useful! I wonder how that would stack with cissus now...
Hey vrykolaka, return to training slowly man, this stuff works good but it takes time and sometimes even if you have no pain at rest, after weights it feels terrible. So take it slow and that root will be able to work its magic.
01-26-2006, 01:06 AM
I was wondering that as well. Do you think there'd be any problem stacking them? From what I understand, Cissus has a mild anti-inflammatory effect, whereas this seems more pronounced. Thanks for the points as well, apparently I can't yet return the favor.Originally Posted by Grunt76
I took it easy today and didn't do anything that directly put pressure on it yet, like flat bench or any tricep motions.
Mostly squats and deadlifts with some bicep curls thrown in, just testing it out at light weights.
I'll definitely take your advice and take it easy...never want to go this long without lifting again!
Anyone else with tendon problems, you should really check this stuff out.
09-03-2012, 05:02 PM
I have a few questions I tore some cartilage in my shoulder and I'm trying to heal it up as fast as
possible so what would be my ubest bet hgh or deca, or anavar? Any help would be appreciated!
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