steroids vs PH

[captainbicept]

ok im not asking the obvious question that everyone thinks i will be asking, ive done steroids i know the gains they provide are superior to prohormones and all things have to be looked at respectively. however, my steroid days are essentially over, my question is what would be more beneficial health wise and gain wise. doing a simple cycle of 50mg winstrol a day or 60mg anavar a day for 8 weeks or running a cycle of t1 pro and t4 together. using one squirt (2ml) of each daily. and by the way i have nolvadex,l-dex and all those other things on hand from my steroid days so if you would like to advise to throw one of those things in there go ahead

[captainbicept]

i should probably add the winny and anavar arent the only two possibilities it could be a very low dose test or dbol cycle, im just trying to make a comparisson, ther last time i did PH's was when pinnacles andro-poppers were the biggest thing on the market

[jweave23]

Sounds like your options are totally open, I guess it depends on what you want to do? Do you compete? Are you cutting or bulking? Is there a reason you would want to do PH's over AAS? (i.e price, availability, legality, etc). This sounds like something you'll have to figure out for yourself. Meanwhile, do some research on new PH's, they are nothing like Andro poppers anymore, that era gave PH's a bad name, basically.

[elijah_123]

From what I understand there is not a ph with "lower side effects" than a steroid that will yield the same results. If there was why bother with steroids at all? All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about.

What sides are you most worried about? Liver, prostrate, hair loss, nut shrinkage? Specifics would likely help people help you alot more.

[jweave23]

Originally posted by elijah_123
From what I understand there is not a ph with "lower side effects" than a steroid that will yield the same results. If there was why bother with steroids at all? All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about.

What sides are you most worried about? Liver, prostrate, hair loss, nut shrinkage? Specifics would likely help people help you alot more.

Please explain this statement in bold and underline. I would like to know your opinion on exactly what constitutes "results" and "sides". If you're going to make generalized statements like that regarding PH's, be prepared to back them up.

Your statement insinuates that to get results from PH's, one will always have negative side effects. What PH's, at what dosages, and what sides are you referring to?

[elijah_123]

Originally posted by jweave23


Please explain this statement in bold and underline. I would like to know your opinion on exactly what constitutes "results" and "sides". If you're going to make generalized statements like that regarding PH's, be prepared to back them up.

Your statement insinuates that to get results from PH's, one will always have negative side effects. What PH's, at what dosages, and what sides are you referring to?

First off I am lumping 1-test in with the ph camp.
Next check this article by big cat for the ph effects and sides
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm

About this statement
"All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about."

I'll assume will agree 4-ad, 1-ad and 1-test at doeses that produce anything like steroid results also give get supression of natty test productiong. (Something I definately consider a side effect). If I should go dig up studies to prove it let me know.

Sorry it is early in the morning I don't have refrence to articles on exactly how suppressive/aromatizing etc. each ph is. But by your own post you state how hard they can be on you

Yep, perfect. Good question though Deoudes, I think alot of people were confused as to the 4 week "on" and "off" thing also. In 2002 I only did 3 cycles, but this year it will probably be 4. Anything more than that and IMO you may risk too much on your endocrine system (...hormone levels more unstable than a pregnant woman with a cheating husband and a thing for Ben & Jerry's)

Also as I stated I wasn't sure which sides he was worried about. Taking huge mounts of ph's orally may lead to liver problems etc.

Perhaps there is a magic point where you can see some results from ph with no sides. I'll admit that but I tend to want the most I can get from a cycle, and do post-cycle therapy to take care of it.

Thanks for calling me out, and sorry if I didn't answer you well enough just holler at me some more

[jweave23]

Originally posted by elijah_123


First off I am lumping 1-test in with the ph camp.
Next check this article by big cat for the ph effects and sides
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm

About this statement
"All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about."

I'll assume will agree 4-ad, 1-ad and 1-test at doeses that produce anything like steroid results also give get supression of natty test productiong. (Something I definately consider a side effect). If I should go dig up studies to prove it let me know.

Sorry it is early in the morning I don't have refrence to articles on exactly how suppressive/aromatizing etc. each ph is. But by your own post you state how hard they can be on you



Also as I stated I wasn't sure which sides he was worried about. Taking huge mounts of ph's orally may lead to liver problems etc.

Perhaps there is a magic point where you can see some results from ph with no sides. I'll admit that but I tend to want the most I can get from a cycle, and do post-cycle therapy to take care of it.

Thanks for calling me out, and sorry if I didn't answer you well enough just holler at me some more

Of course me asking about what sides you are referring to was basically a rhetorical question 

So let's define this a bit further. If you want to compare direct results between PH's and steroids, then I will agree that nearly all steroids will yield better results in terms of overall lean mass gains. What you stated howver, was this:

Originally posted by elijah_123
All ph's at doses that produce results have sides to worry about.

Here you did not say "results comparable to steroids", you said "results". There is a big difference between those two. To say PH's do not produce any results without negative side effects is just not accurate.

Let's define "side effects". I do not consider lowering natty test levels a "side effect", as it is inherent in some PH's and steroids due to their chemical makeup and conversion process that this will happen. Also you referred to large amounts of oral PH's, which I think we can all agree is not the optimal way to go. 1,4 andro sure, but others certainly not.

Also let's consider: most users on a decently planned 4 week bulking PH cycle (be it 1-test, 4-ad, 1,4andro, 19nor, 3-alpha, 5A, etc) can expect to gain anywhere from maybe 8-20 lbs. I have experienced this, and seen it repeatedly throughout hundreds of reports. Would you argue that these are not "results"? Out of these hundreds of cycles, I have seen maybe a handful of gyno reports, and even less prostate problems. I haven't heard of liver problems from recent PH's, have you?

[captainbicept]

thanks for the info so far guys. as far as side affects, i was really inquiring more about long term sides in the realms of my health. if i were to keep doing 10 week winny cycles for the next 20 years of my life im sure i wouldnt wind up iving too long. im not worried about estrogen or my hpta, i have plenty of clomid, ldex and nolvadex plus i know how to handled that from previous roid use. essentially, im pretty much looking to give up roids in the interest of living a "long and healthy" life. however, if the ratio of sides to benefits exceeds that which i desire PH are obviously not worth it for me. ive read of ppl gaining 18 pounds off PH cycles (Blackdream from Massmonsterz.cm). ive done some heavy real cycles and havent put on 18 pounds, this is why im trying to get a good idea of what to expect from a decently dosed PH cycle. can i expect similar gains to that of a very low dose real cycle. (althoiugh 18 pounds would be one hell of a real cycle also in my opinion).

[elijah_123]

When you toss out suppression of natty test levels and remove the option of taking large doses orally then I agree with you completely that not all Ph's have sides when they give results. 4-Ad and 1-test are great examples of this, and make an excellent stack. I was condsidering suppression a problem, not so much for captainbicept because he does have clomid/nolva handy. For people reading this with out those coming of a hard cycle just to loose the gains to low test levels is a problem.

I think we agree and have from the beginning just messed up terminology