- 09-14-2005, 11:25 PM
- 09-14-2005, 11:27 PM
- 09-14-2005, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Matthew D
09-14-2005, 11:43 PM
09-14-2005, 11:44 PM
09-14-2005, 11:51 PM
To add...this also discounts those that directly mediate estrogen related-side effects. Anadrol might not aromatize, but its a no-no.
09-15-2005, 12:30 AM
09-15-2005, 10:38 AM
09-15-2005, 04:38 PM
09-15-2005, 07:28 PM
anavar is a great addition to tren, as well as OT and to a lesser extent winny (go with the inj if you can). Winstrol is in theory very anabolic but in real world it results with very few mass gains but more of a hardening effect, in a nutshell it shouldn't be used as a standalone, either oral or injectable Go for the var, that's what I would do, altough its not the most cheap gear, you can get powder for cheap on some good sources....
09-16-2005, 10:07 AM
09-16-2005, 12:09 PM
1-Testosterone may not be as good as tren but it's an decent option and you get zero estrogen conversion
09-16-2005, 12:57 PM
deca may not aromatize to estrogen but will give you all the same problems that are typically associated with excess estrogenOriginally Posted by Gethuge
09-16-2005, 06:31 PM
09-16-2005, 06:36 PM
09-17-2005, 12:36 PM
09-17-2005, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I would too...but can't seem to find much if any info in it. I'll try and do some more searching when I get a chance bud...it seems like an interesting compound to say the least.
09-19-2005, 01:59 AM
most anabolic w/o aromatizing? anadrol. keep in mind that not that many steroids aromatize. best for stacking with tren? um...test of course, EQ is ok, cant go wrong with var....why do you want non-aromatizing steroids anyway? worried about tren gyno? just use letro and you'll be fine.
09-19-2005, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by same_oldOpposite direction from where I'm trying to goIt has been suggested that the estrogenic effects of oxymetholone may not be as much mediated by estrogen, as by oxymetholone itself activating the estrogen receptor.
Edit: Also, tren gyno is caused by elevated prolactin levels. I wasn't aware that letro affected circulating prolactin?
09-19-2005, 03:09 PM
I believe that prolactin can only cause gyno when estrogen is present. So I guess that if you keep your estrogen down w/ letro, than tren won't give you gyno. Why not do your tren w/ test, bromocriptine, and nolva. That'll keep the man boobs away.Originally Posted by noctorum
09-20-2005, 06:32 AM
Not only that, androgens decrease prolactin levels. The chance of having a lot of circulating prolactin on tren is non-existent. Prolactin is just another fairy-tale invented by morons who can't explain something.
09-20-2005, 06:49 AM
09-20-2005, 08:42 AM
Yes, androgen levels decrease prolactin levels, making any and all involvement of prolactin highly unlikely. On top of that, as bobby pointed out, they have not been known to play any role in the development of breast tissue in the absence of circulating estrogen.
No estrogenic effects have been noted with trenbolone. If there were such effects, they would most likely resemble those of nandrolone. Nandrolone was shown to be 60% as estrogenic as estradiol itself, but neither an aromatase or a progesterone receptor blocker had any effect, and an estrogen receptor blocker had very little effect. Turned out that it was nandrolone activating estrogen-related transcripts via the androgen receptor. Ironic to say the least, since you now had a drug that was more estrogenic than it was anabolic, and the only way to block its estrogenic effects was to block its anabolic effect ...
09-21-2005, 10:45 AM
09-21-2005, 04:23 PM
If you have a leeky tit, perhaps you had low androgen levels and prolactin issues prior to your androgen use.
If such issues occur they can also be the result of poor post-cycle combined with starting a new cycle too soon, leaving you with prolonged periods of time with low androgens, high estrogens and high prolactin levels.
If you have a tit, regardless, I wouldn't be so worried about prolactin and lactation, I'd be more concerned with resolving the problem and therefore treating it with an anti-estrogen ...
09-30-2005, 08:11 PM
09-30-2005, 09:17 PM
10-03-2005, 08:50 AM
10-03-2005, 09:59 AM
deca is great if you use it responsibly.
and big cat i dont buy what you're selling about prolactin and progestinic steroids. too many documented cases, plus clinical trials that show progestins as estrogen agonists and gyno facilitators.
just use your anti-e's, kids, and look into cabergoline on deca.
10-03-2005, 10:13 AM
Feel free to point me in the general direction of these 'documented cases'.Originally Posted by same_old
10-03-2005, 12:30 PM
Estrogen and progesterone receptors in gynecomastia.Originally Posted by Big Cat
Pensler JM, Silverman BL, Sanghavi J, Goolsby C, Speck G, Brizio-Molteni L, Molteni A.
Division of Plastic Surgery, Children's Memorial Hospital, Chicago, Ill., USA. firstname.lastname@example.org
The etiology of gynecomastia is unknown. There seems to be no increased incidence of malignancies in patients with idiopathic gynecomastia; however, patients with Klinefelter syndrome exhibit an increased incidence of malignancy. The authors reviewed the results of 34 patients with gynecomastia diagnosed in adolescence who, following initial evaluation, had a mastectomy. The estrogen and progesterone receptors were analyzed in these patients. Three of the patients were diagnosed with Klinefelter syndrome. These three patients exhibited elevated amounts of estrogen and progesterone receptors. None of the patients who were not diagnosed with this syndrome demonstrated significant elevation of their estrogen or progesterone receptors. The presence of elevated estrogen and progesterone receptors in patients with Klinefelter syndrome provides a potential mechanism by which these patients may develop breast neoplasms. The absence of elevated estrogen and progesterone receptors in patients with idiopathic gynecomastia may serve to clarify why these patients' disease rarely degenerates into malignancy.
Aromatase and steroid receptors in gynecomastia and male breast carcinoma: an immunohistochemical study.
Sasano H, Kimura M, Shizawa S, Kimura N, Nagura H.
Department of Pathology, Tohoku University School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.
Hormonal factors have been implicated in the development of male breast disorders, including carcinoma and gynecomastia. We studied the expression of aromatase and estrogen (ER), progesterone (PR), and androgen (AR) receptors by immunohistochemistry in male breast carcinoma (15 cases) and gynecomastia (30 cases) to evaluate their possible significance in these disorders. Relatively strong aromatase immunoreactivity was observed in all cases of carcinoma, but in only 11 of 30 cases (37%) of gynecomastia. ER and PR expression was observed in the nuclei of ductal cells in all the cases of gynecomastia. More than 10% of the carcinoma cells were positive for ER and PR in 9 of 15 (60%) and 10 of 15 (67%) carcinomas, respectively. AR immunoreactivity was observed in nuclei of both epithelial and non-epithelial cells. AR was present in ductal or carcinoma cells in 13 of 15 (87%) cases of carcinoma and in all 30 (100%) cases of gynecomastia. The mean percentage of ER-, PR-, and AR-positive cells were significantly higher in gynecomastia than in carcinoma. There was a close association of AR with ER (P < 0.01) and PR (P < 0.01) in cases of gynecomastia, but there was a significant inverse correlation between AR and ER (P < 0.01) or PR (P < 0.05) expression in carcinoma cases. Increased aromatase expression in the stromal cells is considered to contribute to the increment in the in situ estrogen concentration and the development of male breast carcinoma.
PMID: 8768875 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Treatment of unresectable meningiomas with the antiprogesterone agent mifepristone.
Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL.
Department of Neurosurgery, University of Southern California School of Medicine, Los Angeles.
The possibility that meningioma growth may be related to female sex hormone levels is suggested by several lines of evidence. Meningiomas are twice as common in women as in men, have been observed to wax and wane with pregnancy, and are positively associated with breast cancer. A physiological explanation for these phenomena is provided by the finding of steroid hormone receptors in meningiomas. However, unlike breast cancer, meningiomas are much more commonly positive for progesterone receptors than for estrogen receptors. The authors initiated a study on long-term oral therapy of unresectable meningiomas with the antiprogesterone mifepristone (RU486). Fourteen patients received mifepristone in daily doses of 200 mg for periods ranging from 2 to 31+ months (greater than or equal to 6 months in 12 patients). Five patients have shown signs of objective response (reduced tumor measurement on computerized tomography scan or magnetic resonance image, or improved visual field examination). Three have also experienced subjective improvement (improved extraocular muscle function or relief from headache). The side effects of long-term mifepristone therapy have been mild. Fatigue was noted in 11 of the 14 patients. Other side effects included hot flashes in five patients, gynecomastia in three, partial alopecia in two, and cessation of menses in two. Long-term therapy with mifepristone is a new therapeutic option that may have efficacy in cases of unresectable benign meningioma.
PMID: 2033444 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.
Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.
Department of Medicine, Tokyo Women's Medical College, Japan.
We measured serum progesterone in five men with hyperthyroidism due to Graves' disease. All had elevated serum progesterone levels before treatment with an antithyroid drug, and their serum progesterone levels declined concomitantly with their serum thyroid levels during treatment. Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism.
PMID: 3335607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Estrogen and progesterone receptors in human breast cancer. Correlation with histologic subtype and degree of differentiation.
Mohammed RH, Lakatua DJ, Haus E, Yasmineh WJ.
Microscopic review of 490 consecutive human breast biopsy and mastectomy specimens were correlated with estrogen and progesterone receptor content of the tissue, by subtype and degree of differentiation. Of the 4 grades of differentiation, the less differentiated Grade III and IV tumors showed significantly lower levels of estrogen and progesterone receptors in infiltrating ductal and lobular carcinoma (P less than 0.001). In contrast, patients with medullary carcinoma had the lowest tissue levels of estrogen and progesterone receptors with approximately 80% of the cases with less than 10 fmol/mg protein. Patients with mucinous carcinoma had the highest percentages of positive estrogen and progesterone receptor levels (75% and 87%, respectively). Sixty-three percent of the patients with Grade IV infiltrating ductal carcinoma were younger than 53 years of age (P less than 0.001). Patients younger than 53 years of age with Grade II and III infiltrating ductal carcinoma also had significantly lower levels of estrogen receptors, but not of progesterone receptors, than those patients older than 53 years of age (P less than 0.001). Nineteen of 20 "normal" breast tissue specimens were negative (less than 3 fmol/mg protein) for estrogen and progesterone receptors. About 50% of 17 tissue specimens from benign breast lesions (fibroadenoma, fibrocystic disease, sclerosing adenosis) showed positive estrogen (greater than 10 fmol/mg protein) or progesterone receptor values. In two patients with gynecomastia, no estrogen or progesterone receptors were detectable.
PMID: 3015374 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10-03-2005, 12:58 PM
I thought we were talking about prolactin. But ok, if you want to talk about progesterone, lets talk SPECIFICALLY about nandrolone and the role of its progestagenic binding in the perceived estrogenic effects :Originally Posted by Big Cat
nandrolone was estimated to be 60% as estrogenic as estradiol itself (1). Neither an aromatase inhibitor, or a progesterone blocker (RU486) was able to change that effect (2). Nor did the addition of the Estrogen receptor blocker 4-OH-tamoxifen significantly change the effect, although it had a small effect, compared to the complete lack of effect seen with progesterone and aromatase blocker. This suggests that nandrolone's estrogenic effects are neither mediated by Progesterone, or by the estrogen receptor. The slight amount of direct estrogenic activity is also not the result of aromatisation, but likely estrogen binding the estrogen receptor itself (3). What does cause the effect of nandrolone is the activation of estrogen related transactivation mediated by the androgen receptor (4).
In other words, if you want to block the estrogenic effects of nandrolone, you need to block the androgen receptor. That is one of THE MANY reasons I don't think nandrolone is a good steroid ...
If you have any questions in this regard feel free to ask. And as stated before, if you can point me in the direction of any documented cases of prolactin causing gyno, please let me know.
Also, just to reiterate, I'm not stating that progesterone cannot play a role in gyno. I'm stating, firstly, that progesterone plays no such role without estrogen being present, and secondly, that progestagenic effects plays no role in the estrogenic effect of nandrolone.
(1)J. Shields-Botella, I Duc, E. Duranti, F. Puccio, P. Bonnet, R. Delansorne, J. Paris. An overview of nomegestrol acetate selective receptor binding and lack of estrogenic action on hormone-dependent cancer cells. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry & Molecular Biology 87 (2003) 111-122.
(2)J. Botella,t E. Duranti, V. Viader, I. Duc, R. Delansorne, J. Paris. Lack of Estrogenic Potential of Progesterone- or 19-Nor-progesterone-derived Progestins as Opposed to Testosterone or 19-Nor- testosterone Derivatives on Endometrial Ishikawa Cells. Steroid Biochem. Molec. Biol. Vol. 55, No. 1, pp. 77-84, 1995.
(3)Bovee TF, Helsdingen RJ, Rietjens IM, Keijer J, Hoogenboom RL. Rapid yeast estrogen bioassays stably expressing human estrogen receptors alpha and beta, and green fluorescent protein: a comparison of different compounds with both receptor types. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2004 Jul;91(3):99-109
(4)Centrella M, McCarthy TL, Chang WZ, Labaree DC, Hochberg RB. Estren (4-estren-3alpha,17beta-diol) is a prohormone that regulates both androgenic and estrogenic transcriptional effects through the androgen receptor. Mol Endocrinol. 2004 May;18(5):1120-30. Epub 2004 Feb 5
10-03-2005, 10:26 PM
i am stating nothing different. progesterone/progestins seem to aggravate gyno when [excess] estrogen is present. all the brotelligence a person needs to know is:Originally Posted by Big Cat
>> deca solo = usually ok for gyno (unless you are fat and therefore have alot of aromatase) *i am not advocating deca solo here*
>> test solo = usually ok for gyno
>> test + deca/tren = most popular gyno recipe...use an anti-e or pay very close attention to your nips. cabergoline has also worked for some, though i have no studies showing anything to back it up.
10-04-2005, 12:01 AM
What I was trying to demonstrate is that progesterone receptor activation is a non-significant pathway of action for nandrolone. Its not that great for trenbolone either. Unless Nor(m)ethandrolone, THG or metribolone are used, progesterone action should not be feared. Likewise, the wide range of pathological conditions implied in your studies should also put people at ease that the contribution of a progestin factor to gyno is rare at best.
I do however not exclude that 19Nor progestins may activate progesterone transcripts through the AR, as I demonstrated for the estrogenic transcripts, but that would still negate the use for anti-progestins, cabergoline or anti-estrogens. The only way to block the action of nandrolone on feminizing symptoms is blocking the AR, but that would also make nandrolone useless.
Do you understand why I find nandrolone a less than useful product ? And that is without bringing up deca dick, difficult recovery due to high supression, supression of appetite, water retention due to direct action on aldosterone and so forth.
10-04-2005, 09:58 PM
that's fine. you are entitled to your opinion and most of the concerns you ID are valid. still, a LOT of guys will continue to use and enjoy deca for many years...Originally Posted by Big Cat
10-05-2005, 12:59 AM
My business is information, not persuasion. If a person presented with all the facts (and understands and accepts them) chooses to use the product over the many alternatives, that is his fullest right. There are many ways to use deca that make it less of a problem :
1.Use deca in lower doses, no more than 500 mg, this avoids deca dick, too much supression, and estrogenic side-effects that cannot be treated with conventional anti-estrogens.
2.Stop deca use 1 to 2 weeks prior to stopping your other products, this too will lessen its impact on supression
3.Always stack it with at least a minimum of testosterone (200-250 mg at the least), this avoids a negative impact on health, and again avoids deca dick.
4.Always run proper PCT (you hope you don't have to repeat this over and over, but experience teaches me I have to)
5.Don't use deca in every cycle. Deca has proven its merit in a clinical setting, in a low dose for treatment use, which distinguishes it from our use simply in that it is used only once (for a cycle of a few weeks fo course) instead of repeatedly. With adequate intervals, obviously the long term impact of deca on health and well-being will be less noticeable.
10-05-2005, 03:46 PM
i guess everyone who juices responsibly isn't aware of this. still, i assume anyone pinning a drug for 4 months has done their homework...i guess it's important that you mentioned these (i think well-known) facts.Originally Posted by Big Cat
i dont jab deca more than 1/2 the test dose, stop it a week before the test, and of course run PCT, sometimes for more than 4 weeks. most responsible juicers i talk to do the same (though some will go 2/3 the test dose and some use deca in every cycle)
10-05-2005, 03:53 PM
same old .. you would be incredibly surprised by how many people have no ****ing clue what they're doing
11-07-2005, 02:23 PM
would adding something like letro for instance to a cycle of tren and test facilitate the fat loss properties of tren?Originally Posted by Big Cat
11-07-2005, 06:57 PM
tren doesnt require anything else to shred you....whether or not it actually kills fat cells is pretty hotly debated.Originally Posted by weeenisss
letro will help keep away the tren gyno on that cycle...i know an 18 year old kid who got gyno with prop/tren w/o an AI. that's about all it will do for you.
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