noctorum
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Whats the most anabolic steroid without aromatization? I know it's a bit of oxymoron, but I'm jw.
I did and didn't find anything. If it's been discussed already, sorry guys :ntome:wasn't there a thread about this a while back.. did you try a search?
deca may not aromatize to estrogen but will give you all the same problems that are typically associated with excess estrogenNot a good addition to tren but..... deca doesn't aromatise and is very anabolic.
most anabolic w/o aromatizing? anadrol. keep in mind that not that many steroids aromatize. best for stacking with tren? um...test of course, EQ is ok, cant go wrong with var....why do you want non-aromatizing steroids anyway? worried about tren gyno? just use letro and you'll be fine.
Opposite direction from where I'm trying to goIt has been suggested that the estrogenic effects of oxymetholone may not be as much mediated by estrogen, as by oxymetholone itself activating the estrogen receptor.
I believe that prolactin can only cause gyno when estrogen is present. So I guess that if you keep your estrogen down w/ letro, than tren won't give you gyno. Why not do your tren w/ test, bromocriptine, and nolva. That'll keep the man boobs away.Opposite direction from where I'm trying to go
Edit: Also, tren gyno is caused by elevated prolactin levels. I wasn't aware that letro affected circulating prolactin?
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so i take it you don't think very highly of deca?No estrogenic effects have been noted with trenbolone. If there were such effects, they would most likely resemble those of nandrolone. Nandrolone was shown to be 60% as estrogenic as estradiol itself, but neither an aromatase or a progesterone receptor blocker had any effect, and an estrogen receptor blocker had very little effect. Turned out that it was nandrolone activating estrogen-related transcripts via the androgen receptor. Ironic to say the least, since you now had a drug that was more estrogenic than it was anabolic, and the only way to block its estrogenic effects was to block its anabolic effect ...
I don't, and with good reason.so i take it you don't think very highly of deca?
Feel free to point me in the general direction of these 'documented cases'.deca is great if you use it responsibly.
and big cat i dont buy what you're selling about prolactin and progestinic steroids. too many documented cases, plus clinical trials that show progestins as estrogen agonists and gyno facilitators.
just use your anti-e's, kids, and look into cabergoline on deca.
Estrogen and progesterone receptors in gynecomastia.Feel free to point me in the general direction of these 'documented cases'.
I thought we were talking about prolactin. But ok, if you want to talk about progesterone, lets talk SPECIFICALLY about nandrolone and the role of its progestagenic binding in the perceived estrogenic effects :Feel free to point me in the general direction of these 'documented cases'.
(1)J. Shields-Botella, I Duc, E. Duranti, F. Puccio, P. Bonnet, R. Delansorne, J. Paris. An overview of nomegestrol acetate selective receptor binding and lack of estrogenic action on hormone-dependent cancer cells. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry & Molecular Biology 87 (2003) 111-122.
(2)J. Botella,t E. Duranti, V. Viader, I. Duc, R. Delansorne, J. Paris. Lack of Estrogenic Potential of Progesterone- or 19-Nor-progesterone-derived Progestins as Opposed to Testosterone or 19-Nor- testosterone Derivatives on Endometrial Ishikawa Cells. Steroid Biochem. Molec. Biol. Vol. 55, No. 1, pp. 77-84, 1995.
(3)Bovee TF, Helsdingen RJ, Rietjens IM, Keijer J, Hoogenboom RL. Rapid yeast estrogen bioassays stably expressing human estrogen receptors alpha and beta, and green fluorescent protein: a comparison of different compounds with both receptor types. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2004 Jul;91(3):99-109
(4)Centrella M, McCarthy TL, Chang WZ, Labaree DC, Hochberg RB. Estren (4-estren-3alpha,17beta-diol) is a prohormone that regulates both androgenic and estrogenic transcriptional effects through the androgen receptor. Mol Endocrinol. 2004 May;18(5):1120-30. Epub 2004 Feb 5
i am stating nothing different. progesterone/progestins seem to aggravate gyno when [excess] estrogen is present. all the brotelligence a person needs to know is:Also, just to reiterate, I'm not stating that progesterone cannot play a role in gyno. I'm stating, firstly, that progesterone plays no such role without estrogen being present, and secondly, that progestagenic effects plays no role in the estrogenic effect of nandrolone.
that's fine. you are entitled to your opinion and most of the concerns you ID are valid. still, a LOT of guys will continue to use and enjoy deca for many years...Do you understand why I find nandrolone a less than useful product ? And that is without bringing up deca dick, difficult recovery due to high supression, supression of appetite, water retention due to direct action on aldosterone and so forth.
i guess everyone who juices responsibly isn't aware of this. still, i assume anyone pinning a drug for 4 months has done their homework...i guess it's important that you mentioned these (i think well-known) facts.1.Use deca in lower doses, no more than 500 mg, this avoids deca dick, too much supression, and estrogenic side-effects that cannot be treated with conventional anti-estrogens.
2.Stop deca use 1 to 2 weeks prior to stopping your other products, this too will lessen its impact on supression
3.Always stack it with at least a minimum of testosterone (200-250 mg at the least), this avoids a negative impact on health, and again avoids deca dick.
4.Always run proper PCT (you hope you don't have to repeat this over and over, but experience teaches me I have to)
5.Don't use deca in every cycle. Deca has proven its merit in a clinical setting, in a low dose for treatment use, which distinguishes it from our use simply in that it is used only once (for a cycle of a few weeks fo course) instead of repeatedly. With adequate intervals, obviously the long term impact of deca on health and well-being will be less noticeable.
would adding something like letro for instance to a cycle of tren and test facilitate the fat loss properties of tren?Yes, androgen levels decrease prolactin levels, making any and all involvement of prolactin highly unlikely. On top of that, as bobby pointed out, they have not been known to play any role in the development of breast tissue in the absence of circulating estrogen.
No estrogenic effects have been noted with trenbolone. If there were such effects, they would most likely resemble those of nandrolone. Nandrolone was shown to be 60% as estrogenic as estradiol itself, but neither an aromatase or a progesterone receptor blocker had any effect, and an estrogen receptor blocker had very little effect. Turned out that it was nandrolone activating estrogen-related transcripts via the androgen receptor. Ironic to say the least, since you now had a drug that was more estrogenic than it was anabolic, and the only way to block its estrogenic effects was to block its anabolic effect ...
tren doesnt require anything else to shred you....whether or not it actually kills fat cells is pretty hotly debated.would adding something like letro for instance to a cycle of tren and test facilitate the fat loss properties of tren?
big cat had written that it has been documented to shred fat when not competing with circulating estrogen...tren doesnt require anything else to shred you....whether or not it actually kills fat cells is pretty hotly debated.
letro will help keep away the tren gyno on that cycle...i know an 18 year old kid who got gyno with prop/tren w/o an AI. that's about all it will do for you.
if you take tren, you WILL lean out and harden up. take prop with it, you will STILL lean out and harden up (whether or not you will lose as much fat on tren+prop as you would on just tren, i dunno, but i personally like my libido). it is extremely strong. i would personally use an anti-e just to ward off gyno.big cat had written that it has been documented to shred fat when not competing with circulating estrogen...